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  1. #741
    Titan Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fluorescent0 View Post
    BC had one difficulty so that doesn't matter to define what normals were in the past, the term was coined in wrath (ulduar unofficially and toc officially) and that's the content it should be compared to. If you did the content while overgearing/it was nerfed I'm kinda sure you feel the difference, but it was pretty much the same while undergeared/properly geared and unnerfed.



    How so? The acquisition rate is diminished (and not by much if we're talking two hours a week) but the gear is greatly improved (516, or almost normal current tier, againist normal previous tier). The two balance out.



    One dungeon per day, averagely one drop every two dungeons (with early ones giving more as you miss everything and later ones the opposite). Sounds pretty fair to me.



    Why isn't raiding previous content fun? (as in normals of the previous content) Is it because they're previous content? They're still content you haven't seen so I don't get the issue. As for LFR not being enjoyable, I agree but that's an LFR problem and not a raiding model problem, quite a substantial difference once again.



    As a developer I'd rather design my game about people who make an informed decision because they're the ones most likely to stick with the game in the first place. And knowing and constantly thinking about it are two different things. Heck, you can do a lot of things solo actually, just don't expect to do high end stuff because that means you're invested in the game and therefore should be invested in its genre too.



    Again, I said it's not an LFR system problem but a battlegroup population problem. I agree, it's a problem, but you're saying LFR is the cause while it's not, it's the population and the way the queue system works.
    Even in 25 man they have increased in complexity even since wrath days. Like I said even if it's just from the fact that playing your character is more challenging then it was before the difficulty bar has been raised across the board since wrath or tbc or whenever. The name ought to change to reflect that. Congratulations you are pro.

    In some theoretical mathematical model I'm sure it does balance. In the real world it doesn't. The rate of acquisition is so piss poor and the gear itself is also often piss poor (helms with no meta sockets LAWL) that on no level is it equal to the reward rate you'd get out of say 4.3 heroics.

    You forget the valor from that dungeon as well. The valor from that dungeon payed out in alot more and the aquisition rate has declined, hell you can't even get gear for it next patch NEVER MIND the justice points. It's slower much slower than it was in cataclysm and you can sit here in wilful denial about it or you can acknowledge it as the developers do. If it was actually as good as it was in cataclysm, say they made heroic scenarios REALLY pay out guess what behaviour would come back that the developers were trying to avoid? So no they can't pay out otherwise people would skip raiding especially these difficult bloated complicated bullshit bosses.

    It doesn't matter if it's fun or not. According to the developers people will do something that mores effecient over something they decrie is fun. So they won't be going back to do older tiers and instead will do lfr. I'm not going back to do an older tier for shittier loot that'll just take longer. I also don't want to have to stomach the same god damn raid over and over again. I'd like an alternative that pays out as good as raiding, hell I'd take justice points that gave out last tiers gear. LFR not being enjoyable is exactly part of the raid model problem. You can't have raids without LFR anymore. If you want the raid model of end game progression to exist (especially with raids as big as ToT) then you are asking for lfr to exist. Sorry.

    As a developer your primary goal is to entertain people in the hope they will continue to subscribe to your game and keep your pay cheque coming in. The genre is meaningless.

    Bad ques are bad ques and it's an lfr problem. I had very good ques on the same server for dungeons. I never had an hour que for a dungeon in fact running on multiple servers I can tell you that LFR TAKES MUCH LONGER TO QUE FOR. I'm not saying LFR is the cause of long ques, I'm saying long ques are often a charichteristic of LFR making them not very casual friendly. You can blame the que system all day it doesn't matter. I got faster ques with dungeons then I did with lfr and dungeons payed out better. They were more casual friendly. Raiding in ANY FORM is far to time consuming and far to demanding to be casual friendly. Sorry. They've tried to dress that pig up as much as they could for casuals and it isn't fooling anybody.
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2013-09-07 at 11:59 PM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  2. #742
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Even in 25 man they have increased in complexity even since wrath days. Like I said even if it's just from the fact that playing your character is more challenging then it was before the difficulty bar has been raised across the board since wrath or tbc or whenever. The name ought to change to reflect that. Congratulations you are pro.
    No, the complexity hasn't changed a great deal on normal encounters unless you were ignoring mechanics because you severely outgeared them. Heck, the complexity of specs has been removed for the most part. Wrath feral and enhancement are still today two of the hardest to play specs of all times.

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    In some theoretical mathematical model I'm sure it does balance. In the real world it doesn't. The rate of acquisition is so piss poor and the gear itself is also often piss poor (helms with no meta sockets LAWL) that on no level is it equal to the reward rate you'd get out of say 4.3 heroics.
    There's no way you can apply statistics to an individual's experience. There is no way in the world you can make sure all people are exactly within the target percentage, because that's not how statistics work.

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    You forget the valor from that dungeon as well. The valor from that dungeon payed out in alot more and the aquisition rate has declined, hell you can't even get gear for it next patch NEVER MIND the justice points. It's slower much slower than it was in cataclysm and you can sit here in wilful denial about it or you can acknowledge it as the developers do. If it was actually as good as it was in cataclysm, say they made heroic scenarios REALLY pay out guess what behaviour would come back that the developers were trying to avoid? So no they can't pay out otherwise people would skip raiding especially these difficult bloated complicated bullshit bosses.
    No I don't. Valors are now used to upgrade stuff, which is still progression, and a meaningful one at that (8% character power out of a full valor upgrade, which costs less than what buying all available pieces did). I agree though, justice points have been made useless and that could do with a change.

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    It doesn't matter if it's fun or not. According to the developers people will do something that mores effecient over something they decrie is fun. So they won't be going back to do older tiers and instead will do lfr. I'm not going back to do an older tier for shittier loot that'll just take longer. I also don't want to have to stomach the same god damn raid over and over again. I'd like an alternative that pays out as good as raiding, hell I'd take justice points that gave out last tiers gear. LFR not being enjoyable is exactly part of the raid model problem. You can't have raids without LFR anymore. If you want the raid model of end game progression to exist (especially with raids as big as ToT) then you are asking for lfr to exist. Sorry.
    You have content outside of raids, but that only gets you up to a certain point. Again, quoting the game guide linked above: "Unlike most games, MMORPGs do not have an offline mode; you need to be connected to the Internet while you play. This doesn’t mean that you can’t enjoy these games alone; World of Warcraft offers plenty of content to players who want to go it solo. But since you share a virtual world with other players, you need to be connected to the Internet to join in the fun. Much of the game’s advanced content is geared towards groups of players working together to explore dangerous dungeons and defeat powerful monsters."

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    As a developer your primary goal is to entertain people in the hope they will continue to subscribe to your game and keep your pay cheque coming in. The genre is meaningless.
    People use the genre to browse games they think they will mostly be interested in. Genre does matter because it provides you with connections (through search websites or just word spread) with the people who are actually interested in the game you're developing and mantaining.

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Bad ques are bad ques and it's an lfr problem. I had very good ques on the same server for dungeons. I never had an hour que for a dungeon in fact running on multiple servers I can tell you that LFR TAKES MUCH LONGER TO QUE FOR. I'm not saying LFR is the cause of long ques, I'm saying long ques are often a charichteristic of LFR making them not very casual friendly. You can blame the que system all day it doesn't matter. I got faster ques with dungeons then I did with lfr and dungeons payed out better. They were more casual friendly. Raiding in ANY FORM is far to time consuming and far to demanding to be casual friendly. Sorry. They've tried to dress that pig up as much as they could for casuals and it isn't fooling anybody.
    Indeed, that's in the nature of any system involving more players than another one. What I'm trying to say though is that we have the population to make the queues a non-issue, it just needs to be organized better. And I still stand by my point that if you're so casual that you can't join a LFR you should be comparing heroic dungeons to heroic scenarios.
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  3. #743
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mionelol View Post

    Money talks. Players walk.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Fluorescent0 View Post
    No, the complexity hasn't changed a great deal on normal encounters unless you were ignoring mechanics because you severely outgeared them. Heck, the complexity of specs has been removed for the most part. Wrath feral and enhancement are still today two of the hardest to play specs of all times.



    There's no way you can apply statistics to an individual's experience. There is no way in the world you can make sure all people are exactly within the target percentage, because that's not how statistics work.



    No I don't. Valors are now used to upgrade stuff, which is still progression, and a meaningful one at that (8% character power out of a full valor upgrade, which costs less than what buying all available pieces did). I agree though, justice points have been made useless and that could do with a change.



    You have content outside of raids, but that only gets you up to a certain point. Again, quoting the game guide linked above: "Unlike most games, MMORPGs do not have an offline mode; you need to be connected to the Internet while you play. This doesn’t mean that you can’t enjoy these games alone; World of Warcraft offers plenty of content to players who want to go it solo. But since you share a virtual world with other players, you need to be connected to the Internet to join in the fun. Much of the game’s advanced content is geared towards groups of players working together to explore dangerous dungeons and defeat powerful monsters."



    People use the genre to browse games they think they will mostly be interested in. Genre does matter because it provides you with connections (through search websites or just word spread) with the people who are actually interested in the game you're developing and mantaining.



    Indeed, that's in the nature of any system involving more players than another one. What I'm trying to say though is that we have the population to make the queues a non-issue, it just needs to be organized better. And I still stand by my point that if you're so casual that you can't join a LFR you should be comparing heroic dungeons to heroic scenarios.
    The complexity has indeed increased enormously. Where's my patchwerk fight in tot? Hell something like TOC relative to tot is insanely simple by comparison. Point by point the complexity of both playing your character has increased as well as playing the raid itself has also increased. The developers have told us as much why your being willfully ignorant of this I don't know but it's the truth.

    Actually yes you can make it so that people are within the target percentage. You can make character progression deterministic and NOT random.

    Upgrading items is a shadow of progression. It's trading one number in for a number. Trading in for a piece of gear is far more meaningful. Even if its just the simple fact that it gives you a new look (never mind set bonuses or anything). Valor is basically useless this expansion and it wasn't necessary. Hell the vendor is leaving next patch and it's for as far as I can tell NO REASON AT ALL.

    Quoting game guides will not keep people from leaving. Same as obeying genre conventions and labels or traditions. They have no meaning in the face of continued subscriber losses as get this NOBODY GIVES A FLYING SHIT about what you want to call the game. They just want to be entertained. In the same way that you don't care about what they call heroic raids the genre label MMO is absolutely and totally FUCKING MEANINGLESS. RPG has more meaning for people searching through genres and well the game is less RPG than ever. Character progression in RPGS is almost all deterministic. In world of warcraft it's all rng based. Even more so now that they've said no more valor gear fuck you go raid and roll the dice for random shitty gear. In fact if people searched for mmorpg and found out what it meant they'd run screaming and fucking kicking because the conventional mmo rpg was very niche and had very little appeal. Every attempt to make the game closer to mmorpg has had players running away en masse. Moving away from that model gained them success. I see no reason to think moving back to it or obeying this one particular tradition is meaningful or special. they've abandoned so many other tenants that they can get rid of raiding and nobody will give a fuck. Or next to nobody at any rate.

    Okay let's compare scenarios to dungeons. Scenarios pay out in shit gear, don't require healers or tanks, and often times do NOT PAY OUT IN ANYTHING. Their fucking USELESS partially because the content itself doesn't payu out in actual GEAR but also because the reward system outside of them (i.e valor) IS ALSO useless now. Now dungeons particularly 4.3 dungeons payed out in catch up gear and gave you valor TO BUY CURRENT ILVL GEAR. You can't do that next patch, and you can't do that with scenarios. Actually you could do that with scenarios BUT THEN EVERYONE WOULD STOP RAIDING and their you have it. The game does not reward out as well as it did before end of fucking story. It is less casual friendly because of this. Far less. The acquisition pace vis a vi heroics vs scenarios CANNOT be the same as it was in cataclysm otherwise the behavior would return. Players would stop raiding in lieu of gearing around patches instead of bosses. So scenarios pay out far less and far less frequently and with far less impact that dungeons did in cataclysm. They are ultimately LESS casual friendly. If they were as you say "balanced out" then we'd be in cataclysm all over again.

    Raiding is NOT CASUAL FRIENDLY PERIOD. It takes far longer even in lfr to organize 25 people than it does 5 so 5 man dungeon ques are almost always going to be faster. Unless you get lucky and fill in for some last boss slot and then you have the sheer joy of wiping your face off on a boss the lfr raid couldn't kill and then getting back in que again for NO FUCKING LOOT. Dungeons payed out PERIOD. They payed out so well people (some people mind you) were bored but for casuals this was PERFECT.
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2013-09-08 at 12:38 AM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  4. #744
    Organized guilded raiding is not meant for everyone. To base your assumptions on what is normal based on everyone is silly in that regard. Normal is where the bulk of organized guilded raiders are focused. In the developers attempt to keep PuG raiders out of normal mode raiding for whom it was not intended for and shove them into LFR it came with the side effect of pushing less organized guilds out of normal mode raiding and there are still PuG raiders who are PuGing normal modes because skill and teamwork abilities triumph over an organized guild at normal mode level. In WotLK the developers stated that normal modes was intended for organized guilds despite so many PuGs running it. It has its reasons though because if Blizzard came out saying that normal modes was designed around PuGs then players would have flooded the forums crying for even more nerfs. From personal experience T11 was no harder than T10 prebuff on 25 man and that the first three bosses in T11 was actually easier than the first three in T10 excluding lootship. It was 10 man T11 that tighter tuned and suffered heavily from class balancing which was the reason why 10 man T10 was tuned looser in the first place. This resulted in class swapping in fights and the 10 man guild on my realm to PuG players in order to get a realm first Nef kill on 25 man due to it being far easier than 10 man was. Had groups stayed 25 man at Cata launch then players would have been fine.

  5. #745
    Quote Originally Posted by Grimble View Post
    Have you ever been part of a normal IRL social group where someone had a friend/husband/brother that couldn't make it because they had a WoW raid? First off, about 90% of the human population doesn't even know what that means, and when it's sheepishly explained to them, it goes over about as well as saying the missing person had to stay home because they were reorganizing their Star Wars toys. It's halfway between that and finding out that they have a harmful drug habit.



    Because having a bunch of raid options spares them the expense of having to make a bunch of additional five-mans the way they did back in WOTLK. The problem is, casuals are leaving because they don't like raids very much, even easy LFR raids. Period. If Blizzard wants to keep them, they're going to have to give them something to do besides stab a dragon in the ankles for an hour. Pet Battles was a good start. A housing system would be an excellent additional step. Anything that runs outside of the usual "new patch, time to either get more gear or maybe quit" cycle.
    Before I rant on, sorry if this is a long answer:

    As to your first comment there about missing stuff in real life for raids, been there done that many times myself, been playing 8yrs+ now too so slightly lost count of times I've taken a guild run over going out :P

    Most of my IRL friends can't stand games, couple of them might play Xbox every now and again, more often then not though they're more into going out, having bbq's and socializing but they don't count me as a pariah, they still invite me a long without feeling the need to look down on me if I decline due to in game commitments, they know I'm a dedicated player when it comes to Warcraft.

    To your other comment though, yes blizz split the difference of time over making new dungeons/heroic 5mans to instead giving us these silly scenario things but it's also about the time restraints some players feel they're up against. The casual players aren't leaving because they don't like to raid, it's more a case of wanting what the long term/harder cored players have i.e end game content and loots etc without having to put in as much time.

    These same casual players (not all casuals btw, I know plenty who are happy doing what they do when they want to in the time they have put aside for playing) haven't experienced Warcraft how it used to be with months of farming away at the same bosses/raids before being able to move up the ladder to the next boss/tier and it's not their fault for that.

    They probably joined somewhere between Wotlk and MoP meaning they joined when the game was already moving towards a more casual friendly attitude but don't understand why the game is still as it is in terms of end game content. It's like a child, they want something and they want it now. There's just no patience in most people nowadays and this is the real problem, patience.

    Hell, even content and expacks are becoming more regular because more people are able to progress through it with the additions of dungeon and raid finder but there will always be those who feel this isn't enough, it'll be the same when flexi launches too, yet another stepping stone to help bridge a gap in the player community but will be seen as useless because the average Joe can't just walk into a heroic run as someone like myself would due to the fact they haven't put the time and effort in to gain the necessary experience and ilvl guilds are putting as requirements in recruiting.

    One thing I want to touch on though but personally I don't feel is an important issue is your mentioning of player housing, who needs it? We got the farms at Halfhill if we want somewhere to literally call our own, if you want to take it that step further, head over to a Role Play server and do something there. If blizzard really does consider going down this route though, I'd like to see guild halls rather then individual domiciles.

    If you want a game that's going nuts on housing, take a look at Wildstar :P

    The fact of the matter is this game has changed since the days of old, whether for good or bad is irrelevant, it's how we as individual players play the game that matters, just because the devs don't change something someone doesn't like, is not enough of a reason for people to quit or demand an instant address on the problem.

    The problem of Casual vs Raider has been a long standing argument and most likely will be until Warcraft winds down to make way for Titan or whichever way blizzard decides to go.

    It's a game people, play it, don't play it, but either way just login to have fun. Don't login with the idea "if I don't get this, that or the other I'm quitting" :/

    That kind of mentality doesn't help you, us or anyone else...

  6. #746
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    The complexity has indeed increased enormously. Where's my patchwerk fight in tot? Hell something like TOC relative to tot is insanely simple by comparison. Point by point the complexity of both playing your character has increased as well as playing the raid itself has also increased. The developers have told us as much why your being willfully ignorant of this I don't know but it's the truth.
    Did you miss my part about "only content since when the normal tag was introduced"? I don't recall naxxramas being one of those raid instances. ToC (the other one you cited in your post) had a couple interesting mechanics which were actually pretty new at the time. Debuff clearing via other debuffs (Ascendant council anyone?), mechanics requiring people to be low HP (ra-den vita phase even if everybody skipped that), interacting with environment objects to gain buffs useful for the fight (stone guards in MSV), multiple bosses fight (mel'jarak, councils). You're being simplistic if you say ToC and ICC weren't in-depth raid as far as mechanics were concerned, or just ran them with 232 dungeon gear (ToC) and 20%+ nerf (ICC).

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Actually yes you can make it so that people are within the target percentage. You can make character progression deterministic and NOT random.
    Indeed, but you don't want to do without a random factor. First of all, without random as strange as it may sound it feels much more of a grind. Second, if there's an RNG factor you're actually more excited when you get a piece of upgrade compared to a system where you can schedule every single upgrade you're getting.

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Upgrading items is a shadow of progression. It's trading one number in for a number. Trading in for a piece of gear is far more meaningful. Even if its just the simple fact that it gives you a new look (never mind set bonuses or anything). Valor is basically useless this expansion and it wasn't necessary. Hell the vendor is leaving next patch and it's for as far as I can tell NO REASON AT ALL.
    Because Flex is being introduced, at least that's why I think they did it. And go tell all the guilds (including mine) that tried Lei shen pre and post item upgrades that valors are basically useless and upgrades are only a shadow of progression. 8% character power is an awful lot of a progression. Trading in a piece of gear gives you more consistent, less frequent upgrades. Just like heroic scenarios give less frequent but more consistent gear compared to heroic dungeons.

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Quoting game guides will not keep people from leaving. Same as obeying genre conventions and labels or traditions. They have no meaning in the face of continued subscriber losses as get this NOBODY GIVES A FLYING SHIT about what you want to call the game. They just want to be entertained. In the same way that you don't care about what they call heroic raids the genre label MMO is absolutely and totally FUCKING MEANINGLESS. RPG has more meaning for people searching through genres and well the game is less RPG than ever. In fact if people searched for mmorpg and found out what it meant they'd run screaming and fucking kicing because the conventional mmo rpg was very niche and had very little appeal. Moving away from that model gained them success. I see no reason to think moving back to it or obeying this one particular tradition is meaningful or special. they've abanoned so many other tenants that they can get rid of raiding and nobody will give a fuck. Or next to nobody at any rate.
    Heck no. Moving away from features that the model expanded upon granted them success. They still mantained the model's core characteristics. You need to get a distinction between the two. You're still playing a character which isn't you but which you're impersonating in an online fantasy world where a lot of people are present.

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Okay let's compare scenarios to dungeons. Scenarios pay out in shit gear, don't require healers or tanks, and often times do NOT PAY OUT IN ANYTHING. Their fucking USELESS partially because the content itself doesn't payu out in actual GEAR but also because the reward system outside of them (i.e valor) IS ALSO useless now. Now dungeons particularly 4.3 dungeons payed out in catch up gear and gave you valor TO BUY CURRENT ILVL GEAR. You can't do that next patch, and you can't do that with scenarios. Actually you could do that with scenarios BUT THEN EVERYONE WOULD STOP RAIDING and their you have it. The game does not reward out as well as it did before end of fucking story. It is less casual friendly because of this. Far less.
    Except for helms (major flop, especially since they fixed it for 489 barrens gear but not for hreoic scenarios), how is it shit gear? Please elaborate. And again, valor does pay out. Heroic scenarios + valor = 524 gear, which is above the 522 of normal mode ToT.

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Raiding is NOT CASUAL FRIENDLY PERIOD. It takes far longer even in lfr to organize 25 people than it does 5 so 5 man dungeon ques are almost always going to be faster. Unless you get lucky and fill in for some last boss slot and then you have the sheer joy of wiping your face off on a boss the lfr raid couldn't kill and then getting back in que again for NO FUCKING LOOT. Dungeons payed out PERIOD. They payed out so well people (some people mind you) were bored but for casuals this was PERFECT.
    Yes, 5 man content dungeon queues are going to be faster, I said that in my post as well. There's however no difference between a one minute queue and a two minutes queue, and they could very well achieve that rate with the amount of players we currently have playing the game. And you're probably mistaking seeing drops for getting drops. In dungeons you're guaranteed to see items dropping, you're not guaranteed for them to drop what you need.
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  7. #747
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    Thumbs up for this suggestion. I like it allot.

    I was never in any top-raiding guild, but I was in an average raiding guild and raided actively for years. Nowadays I no longer play the game though. Why? Certainly wasn't because I couldn't access or see all the content in-game. Blizzard has made that really easy. No, rather I lost interest in the phenomenon that is World of Warcraft. This is because with the content being so accessible I lost interest in following the news of top-guilds as they downed these super iconic characters like Illidan, then waltzed around Orgrimmar with the most unobtainable and insanely looking epics I had ever seen. I would dream that one day I would get to kill that boss, and that I would obtain these epics for my characters. Nowadays I no longer have to dream, I can just go in there and kill an easier version of the boss and get the same epic with some just some worse stats on them. Is this an improvement on the game? Well, I guess it is an improvement on the game, as it gives me content to play that I couldn't have played had it stayed the way it used to be. But is this an improvement on the phenomenon that is World of Warcraft? It's one of these "be careful what you wish for" kind of things really. I did get what I dreamed of, but as I did the magic and feel of this phenomenon was lost, and World of Warcraft became just a game, when it used to be so much more. I lost my interest in the community as I no longer had anything to aspire to. No longer did the greatest players on the realm distinguish themselves by standing around Orgrimmar with gear I would dream to obtain. No longer do top guilds like Nihilium spend days and nights wiping to kill the latest iconic end boss, now they are killed instantly in "normal" mode and the epic gear they drop is obtained although only with lesser stats than are available in heroic version. What I speak of is a feeling, so it's hard to explain really. But if you agree you will know what I mean. This feeling that made World of Warcraft not a game but nothing greater is lost because of all raiding content being so accessible nowadays.

  8. #748
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarc View Post
    No longer did the greatest players on the realm distinguish themselves by standing around Orgrimmar with gear I would dream to obtain.
    1. I might be wrong but I think it's probably a bit off to think that people stand around Orgrimmar/SW gawking and admiring others or ever really did for any length of time historically. I'm sure some do but most everyone I see seems to be going somewhere and always has. Most of us have better things to do and better ways to utilize our $15/month and time.

    2. Obsessing over precise definitions of words like 'normal' won't get anything done.

    3. I suppose the difficulty level between Flex and Heroic could be renamed Abnormal but I just wrote that to amuse myself and anyone else who reads it.

    To reiterate something I said earlier and that some others have written about in their own ways, any guild that is basically running Normal all the time and that can summon more than 10 players and less than 25 is going to experience an enormous amount of pressure from within the guild to run Flex. Pressure that guild and raid leaders would be smart to pay attention to. People dislike being sat out/benched now. Being sat out/benched when there's an option where everyone can play will be something that most people will not put up with. More than anything that's why I think Normal--Abnormal if you enjoyed my joke--is going to shrink up some.

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  9. #749
    Titan Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fluorescent0 View Post
    Did you miss my part about "only content since when the normal tag was introduced"? I don't recall naxxramas being one of those raid instances. ToC (the other one you cited in your post) had a couple interesting mechanics which were actually pretty new at the time. Debuff clearing via other debuffs (Ascendant council anyone?), mechanics requiring people to be low HP (ra-den vita phase even if everybody skipped that), interacting with environment objects to gain buffs useful for the fight (stone guards in MSV), multiple bosses fight (mel'jarak, councils). You're being simplistic if you say ToC and ICC weren't in-depth raid as far as mechanics were concerned, or just ran them with 232 dungeon gear (ToC) and 20%+ nerf (ICC).



    Indeed, but you don't want to do without a random factor. First of all, without random as strange as it may sound it feels much more of a grind. Second, if there's an RNG factor you're actually more excited when you get a piece of upgrade compared to a system where you can schedule every single upgrade you're getting.



    Because Flex is being introduced, at least that's why I think they did it. And go tell all the guilds (including mine) that tried Lei shen pre and post item upgrades that valors are basically useless and upgrades are only a shadow of progression. 8% character power is an awful lot of a progression. Trading in a piece of gear gives you more consistent, less frequent upgrades. Just like heroic scenarios give less frequent but more consistent gear compared to heroic dungeons.



    Heck no. Moving away from features that the model expanded upon granted them success. They still mantained the model's core characteristics. You need to get a distinction between the two. You're still playing a character which isn't you but which you're impersonating in an online fantasy world where a lot of people are present.



    Except for helms (major flop, especially since they fixed it for 489 barrens gear but not for hreoic scenarios), how is it shit gear? Please elaborate. And again, valor does pay out. Heroic scenarios + valor = 524 gear, which is above the 522 of normal mode ToT.



    Yes, 5 man content dungeon queues are going to be faster, I said that in my post as well. There's however no difference between a one minute queue and a two minutes queue, and they could very well achieve that rate with the amount of players we currently have playing the game. And you're probably mistaking seeing drops for getting drops. In dungeons you're guaranteed to see items dropping, you're not guaranteed for them to drop what you need.
    Naxxramas was remade in wotlk. It counts. Your distinction is about before the tag was made is also likewise meaningless. The simple fact is that the game is far more complicated and difficult at end game then it was during well pretty much any point in it's history. Bring back any wotlk era boss and watch people laugh at how simple it is. ToC is an excellent example of this. Relative to today pretty much every raid in wotlk (with few notable exceptions in ulduar) was piss easy and far less complicated on both 25 and 10 man difficulties.

    Yes you do want to do without the random factor. Progression in an rpg is almost always deterministic. The constant dice roll of frustration ultimately hurts the game in the long run. It's not immersive to constantly get the same bag of dick over and over again and it's not what people are after in a video game clearly.

    8% power may be alot of progression but once again it's more progression for somebody at the top of raiding then it is for a guy upgrading a dungeon piece of gear one level. It's also a psychological bonus. Trading in one number for a number doesn't feel as rewarding as getting a new piece of gear. If it did you'd do that instead of raid. Nothing you offer as progression cannot possible fufil the roll of what people were doing to progress their characters throughout wotlk and cataclysm. If it was then people would stop raiding.

    It's shit gear that's poorly itemized and also looks like shit to. Valor does not pay out. You can be as hard headed and dense about this as you want but it does not pay out especially like it used to. If it did you'd stop raiding in favor of it.

    They haven't maintained many of the games core features. They abandoned dungeons this expansion. Why not abandon raids instead? They moved away from many of the models core characteristics INCLUDING difficulty and grind. They tried to bring back difficulty in cataclysm, people ran kicking and fucking screaming. They tried to bring back grind in mists people are running kicking and fucking screaming. The only people confused about this are you and the developers. The game was a success because it abandoned (increasingly so) the core characteristics and features of the mmo genre. Returning to them has only made the game poorer.

    Their is a huge difference between 1 minute and 2 minutes but thats the point. it's not a minute difference it's a huge difference.

    Ultimately you can't skirt around the fact that you acknowledge the behavior on the part of the player base in the last expansion (i.e skipping raid bosses and gearing up outside the raid) and then say everything is just as rewarding or heroic scenarios which you compare to dungeons are on balance as rewarding as heroic dungeons. They ARE NOT. Neither are the ancillary systems (i.e justice and more specifically valor).If they were the same behavior would return. Ultimately heroic scenarios and all the forms or progression outside the raid ARE NOT AS REWARDING as before. So yes this game and every activity outside of raiding pays out in far less, casuals are being told to accept far less and you can be okay with that but I'm not sure why you and the developers should expect people to be happy about accepting less. Especially when it's solely in the interest of a slim few so that they can keep playing more and more and not be bored.
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2013-09-08 at 02:58 AM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  10. #750
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Naxxramas was remade in wotlk. It counts. Your distinction is about before the tag was made is also likewise meaningless. The simple fact is that the game is far more complicated and difficult at end game then it was during well pretty much any point in it's history. Bring back any wotlk era boss and watch people laugh at how simple it is. ToC is an excellent example of this. Relative to today pretty much every raid in wotlk (with few notable exceptions in ulduar) was piss easy and far less complicated on both 25 and 10 man difficulties.
    The normal tag was introduced with ToC. That's when Blizzard officially defined one difficulty as normal, of course it matters. Everything before that wasn't defined as a standard and therefore shouldn't be used for comparison. Again, I've made you examples of mechanics in ToC which were used during cata and mop and yet all you do is go "lalalala wotlk raids are easy because I say so". Provide a source, explain why. And don't bother with 10man, that ship sailed with Cataclysm and the equalization of 10 and 25man formats.

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Yes you do want to do without the random factor. Progression in an rpg is almost always deterministic. The constant dice roll of frustration ultimately hurts the game in the long run. It's not immersive to constantly get the same bag of dick over and over again and it's not what people are after in a video game clearly.
    You can't do away with the random factor without everything sounding more like a chore and less like a hunt.Heck, having a schedule alone makes you think "I have to do this or I'll get my piece of loot one day after what I could". Having random drops, especially after the bad luck protection has been implemented (and I think it could do with being extended to LFR loot as well), is much more interesting because you never know what to expect something, but you're still guaranteed a certain rate of gearing up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    8% power may be alot of progression but once again it's more progression for somebody at the top of raiding then it is for a guy upgrading a dungeon piece of gear one level. It's also a psychological bonus. Trading in one number for a number doesn't feel as rewarding as getting a new piece of gear. If it did you'd do that instead of raid. Nothing you offer as progression cannot possible fufil the roll of what people were doing to progress their characters throughout wotlk and cataclysm. If it was then people would stop raiding.
    Heroic raiders already get huge diminishing returns on time spent/rewards. While a person might need a hour and a half to clear a LFR wing, to progress on a Heroic wing you're taking one week if it's easy, one month in cases of bosses like Lei Shen. There are already factors that make it so that playing a shitload gets rewarded less and less. That doesn't mean you have to make time a meaningless factor because time IS effort. You might be playing as much as you can in that two hours a week you're putting in the game, but you're still only putting in two hours a week. A guy that is putting fifteen hours a week (5x3 raids) is already putting more effort than you just because he's dedicating more time to the game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    It's shit gear that's poorly itemized and also looks like shit to. Valor does not pay out. You can be as hard headed and dense about this as you want but it does not pay out especially like it used to. If it did you'd stop raiding in favor of it.
    Poorly itemized? Not really, relying on RNG but even a non-optimal stat roll is pretty good. Looks like shit, seriously? Looks is what you bring up after having trsamogrifier implemented so you don't have to bitch about that? I never stopped raiding in cata when dungeons were out, I can't see why I would do it with Heroic Scenarios now. Keep in mind that developers' statements apply to the majority of people, not to every single one of them. Yes, efficiency is great, but instead of getting burnt out I stopped doing dailies in June, I stopped capping valor about that date as well and I didn't farm LFR to get guaranteed runestones while I was studying for my exams and therefore not raiding.

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    They haven't maintained many of the games core features. They abandoned dungeons this expansion. Why not abandon raids instead? They moved away from many of the models core characteristics INCLUDING difficulty and grind. They tried to bring back difficulty in cataclysm, people ran kicking and fucking screaming. They tried to bring back grind in mists people are running kicking and fucking screaming. The only people confused about this are you and the developers. The game was a success because it abandoned (increasingly so) the core characteristics and features of the mmo genre. Returning to them has only made the game poorer.
    Wrong, dungeons have been mantained in the first patch, only the later ones have been dismissed. And keep in mind that dungeons aren't a core characteristic, they're a feature. A core characteristic is what you define by the name itself. No MMORPG would necessarily need dungeons (nor raids from the same point of view), you could do something such as Second Life where you're still roleplaying and have a go at it with loads of other people. A core characteristic is something you can deduct from its name and that therefore is part of the genre's definition. Massive multiplayer is, dungeons and raids aren't. They can ditch dungeons and raids, they can't ditch massive multiplayer content.

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Ultimately you can't skirt around the fact that you acknowledge the behavior on the part of the player base in the last expansion (i.e skipping raid bosses and gearing up outside the raid) and then say everything is just as rewarding or heroic scenarios which you compare to dungeons are on balance as rewarding as heroic dungeons. They ARE NOT. Neither are the ancillary systems (i.e justice and more specifically valor).If they were the same behavior would return. Ultimately heroic scenarios and all the forms or progression outside the raid ARE NOT AS REWARDING as before. So yes this game and every activity outside of raiding pays out in far less, casuals are being told to accept far less and you can be okay with that but I'm not sure why you and the developers should expect people to be happy about accepting less. Especially when it's solely in the interest of a slim few so that they can keep playing more and more and not be bored.
    The point is that you aren't accepting less. You're getting character progression (and yes, even thought you say it isn't as meaningful as before it actually is, since you can get a full gearset of above-normal-quality gear without raiding), you're getting content (scenarios) aimed specifically at you. What you're bitching about is that catch-up isn't as fast as before (which, again, can be argued on. I'd say it's more subject to RNG but averagely just as fast from the standpoint of a casual player, as I could gear a toon in about one/two days in HoT heroics) and that you can't get the same things heroic raiders do, but you never were able to.
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  11. #751
    Titan Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fluorescent0 View Post
    The normal tag was introduced with ToC. That's when Blizzard officially defined one difficulty as normal, of course it matters. Everything before that wasn't defined as a standard and therefore shouldn't be used for comparison. Again, I've made you examples of mechanics in ToC which were used during cata and mop and yet all you do is go "lalalala wotlk raids are easy because I say so". Provide a source, explain why. And don't bother with 10man, that ship sailed with Cataclysm and the equalization of 10 and 25man formats.



    You can't do away with the random factor without everything sounding more like a chore and less like a hunt.Heck, having a schedule alone makes you think "I have to do this or I'll get my piece of loot one day after what I could". Having random drops, especially after the bad luck protection has been implemented (and I think it could do with being extended to LFR loot as well), is much more interesting because you never know what to expect something, but you're still guaranteed a certain rate of gearing up.



    Heroic raiders already get huge diminishing returns on time spent/rewards. While a person might need a hour and a half to clear a LFR wing, to progress on a Heroic wing you're taking one week if it's easy, one month in cases of bosses like Lei Shen. There are already factors that make it so that playing a shitload gets rewarded less and less. That doesn't mean you have to make time a meaningless factor because time IS effort. You might be playing as much as you can in that two hours a week you're putting in the game, but you're still only putting in two hours a week. A guy that is putting fifteen hours a week (5x3 raids) is already putting more effort than you just because he's dedicating more time to the game.



    Poorly itemized? Not really, relying on RNG but even a non-optimal stat roll is pretty good. Looks like shit, seriously? Looks is what you bring up after having trsamogrifier implemented so you don't have to bitch about that? I never stopped raiding in cata when dungeons were out, I can't see why I would do it with Heroic Scenarios now. Keep in mind that developers' statements apply to the majority of people, not to every single one of them. Yes, efficiency is great, but instead of getting burnt out I stopped doing dailies in June, I stopped capping valor about that date as well and I didn't farm LFR to get guaranteed runestones while I was studying for my exams and therefore not raiding.



    Wrong, dungeons have been mantained in the first patch, only the later ones have been dismissed. And keep in mind that dungeons aren't a core characteristic, they're a feature. A core characteristic is what you define by the name itself. No MMORPG would necessarily need dungeons (nor raids from the same point of view), you could do something such as Second Life where you're still roleplaying and have a go at it with loads of other people. A core characteristic is something you can deduct from its name and that therefore is part of the genre's definition. Massive multiplayer is, dungeons and raids aren't. They can ditch dungeons and raids, they can't ditch massive multiplayer content.



    The point is that you aren't accepting less. You're getting character progression (and yes, even thought you say it isn't as meaningful as before it actually is, since you can get a full gearset of above-normal-quality gear without raiding), you're getting content (scenarios) aimed specifically at you. What you're bitching about is that catch-up isn't as fast as before (which, again, can be argued on. I'd say it's more subject to RNG but averagely just as fast from the standpoint of a casual player, as I could gear a toon in about one/two days in HoT heroics) and that you can't get the same things heroic raiders do, but you never were able to.
    It doesn't matter, it simple meant the standard was just raid. PERIOD. TBC or before that. According to you the naming conventions are meaningless except when they aren't when it's convenient for your argument. As for citations I would suggest you ahven't given a single one and the mechanics you listed in ToC are all far simpler to their incarnations we see today where they are different and often piled on top of another entire pile of other mechanics. raiding is simple more complicated today then ever and that includes 25 man and 10 man (which you simple just can't dismiss because well hey people were doing those in wotlk) then it's even been. PERIOD. I'm done arguing about this because your so far god damn in denial it doesn't fucking matter.

    RNG is a chore. I find NOTHING interesting (and I don't know a single fucking soul who does) about random dice roll that goes on behind the screen especially when the loot tables are so god damn bloated and all the alternatives to aquiring loot outside of rng so god damn shitty. I find nothing interesting in constantly loosing the dice roll. To me that just reeks of lazy design and poor gameplay. RPGS are not rng dependant either but the developers seem to think this is the case.

    Yes really the heroic scenario gear is piss poor. It's not even tier pieces for gods sake or even normal raid worthy. It's SHIT compared to what you could get out of regular dungeons in the past.


    I don't care what you call the game. I mean they got rid of core RPG features (deterministic progression is a core rpg feature btw) but still claim it's an MMORPG. So the developers can and do remove central parts of the game all the time. Hell the game is LESS mmo now than ever and people play it solo every day without even seeing other folks. I'm not asking for them abandon the multiplayer model just not to cater to raiding. You don't need to have massive organized raids. You can still keep the massive without it, the massive could reflect the world or whatever. Nor do I need to think you need to keep the genre. That's just something your stuck on for no reason as far as I can tell. WoW is and always been less mmo and their is ZERO POINT ZERO reason to stick to the title mmo and think it means a fucking thing unless your trying to be ridiculous and argue for nothing.


    I'm done arguing this. The developers are giving you FAR LESS CHARACTER progression outside of the raid then they did in the past and this has made it ridiculously casual unfriendly. It's not just as fast nor is it as as good because if it was WED BE BACK IN CATACLYSM AND PEOPLE WOULD BE SKIPPING RAIDS IN FAVOR OF IT You are absolutely accepting less than you had before and it's PRECISELY to give other payers more to do and give more focus to raids. It's practically Orwellian to say you aren't accepting less. You can't even get the same shit NORMAL RAIDERS do anymore. It's fucking terrible. ANd while they pay lip service to alternatives the reality is their isn't any. You REFUSE to see anything outside of your narrow perspective and would rather argue nomenclature. Old thinking is what your all about and apparently so are the developers. Keep thinking old and the game will still feel old and people will continue to leave.
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2013-09-08 at 06:08 AM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  12. #752
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    It doesn't matter, it simple meant the standard was just raid. PERIOD. TBC or before that. According to you the naming conventions are meaningless except when they aren't when it's convenient for your argument. As for citations I would suggest you ahven't given a single one and the mechanics you listed in ToC are all far simpler to their incarnations we see today where they are different and often piled on top of another entire pile of other mechanics. raiding is simple more complicated today then ever and that includes 25 man and 10 man (which you simple just can't dismiss because well hey people were doing those in wotlk) then it's even been. PERIOD. I'm done arguing about this because your so far god damn in denial it doesn't fucking matter.
    I still stand by my point that they are just naming conventions, it's only that if you want compare what Blizzard defines normal today to the past, you gotta compare it to what Blizzard defined normal in the past. Since, like you just said, before ToC there were only raids, there's not a definition of the standard developers set before the introduction of that raid and therefore a safe comparison can not be made. And of course you can ignore 10man in wotlk, when people asked for 10 and 25mans to be equal they implicitly agreed for either 25man becoming easier (which hasn't been the case) or 10man becoming harder (which has actually been the case). Therefore, comparison between 10man normals today and back then is unfair because 10mans are no longer half a tier behind and therefore are tuned differently. Heck, raiding is indeed difficult as it is today but I see the difficulty rampup starting around Ulduar and going throughout the last two expansions. Do remember that bosses such as Yogg Saron basically brought in a new generation of bosses where coordination and high personal responsability, along with being able to perform optimally with your class, started becoming a necessity for heroic modes and that has pushed developers to introduce some of those things in heroic modes. Again, indifferent to the comparison with normal because heck, it wasn't named before that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    RNG is a chore. I find NOTHING interesting (and I don't know a single fucking soul who does) about random dice roll that goes on behind the screen especially when the loot tables are so god damn bloated and all the alternatives to aquiring loot outside of rng so god damn shitty. I find nothing interesting in constantly loosing the dice roll. To me that just reeks of lazy design and poor gameplay. RPGS are not rng dependant either but the developers seem to think this is the case.
    Pretty must all RPGs are RNG dependant actually. Drops, upgrade fails, random stat rolls, some even have crafting success. Heck, basic games from which the RPG genre was born have a constant roll of the dice for whatever action you do. I really can't see where you're coming from when you state that RPGs don't have any RNG except this game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Yes really the heroic scenario gear is piss poor. It's not even tier pieces for gods sake or even normal raid worthy. It's SHIT compared to what you could get out of regular dungeons in the past.
    Do remember that from Cataclysm onwards you have never been able to buy tier pieces without raiding. They started requiring tokens in cataclysm, so you didn't have those back then. And of course it isn't normal raid worthy, it's supposed to be catchup gear which is actually higher than it has been before (normal raid previous tier). Spending valor makes it above normal raid worthy, which is also more than what could be said for the past. You keep saying it's shit but the numbers prove quite the opposite.

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    I don't care what you call the game. I mean they got rid of core RPG features (deterministic progression is a core rpg feature btw) but still claim it's an MMORPG. So the developers can and do remove central parts of the game all the time. Hell the game is LESS mmo now than ever and people play it solo every day without even seeing other folks. I'm not asking for them abandon the multiplayer model just not to cater to raiding. You don't need to have massive organized raids. You can still keep the massive without it, the massive could reflect the world or whatever. Nor do I need to think you need to keep the genre. That's just something your stuck on for no reason as far as I can tell. WoW is and always been less mmo and their is ZERO POINT ZERO reason to stick to the title mmo and think it means a fucking thing unless your trying to be ridiculous and argue for nothing.
    No, deterministic progression is not a core feature, as explained above. Heck, go look at Dungeons and Dragons rules, where you can get killed because you roll too low. And again, features are not bound to a genre, they're just how the genre happened to be developing. Its definition is what can not be changed, and they haven't, because as explained above it's still a game where you play a character which isn't you in a fantasy world (RPG) with a shitload of other people (massive multiplayer) over the internet (online). Everything else is accessory and it's their decision what to make with it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    I'm done arguing this. The developers are giving you FAR LESS CHARACTER progression outside of the raid then they did in the past and this has made it ridiculously casual unfriendly. It's not just as fast nor is it as as good because if it was WED BE BACK IN CATACLYSM AND PEOPLE WOULD BE SKIPPING RAIDS IN FAVOR OF IT You are absolutely accepting less than you had before and it's PRECISELY to give other payers more to do and give more focus to raids. It's practically Orwellian to say you aren't accepting less. You can't even get the same shit NORMAL RAIDERS do anymore. It's fucking terrible. ANd while they pay lip service to alternatives the reality is their isn't any. You REFUSE to see anything outside of your narrow perspective and would rather argue nomenclature. Old thinking is what your all about and apparently so are the developers. Keep thinking old and the game will still feel old and people will continue to leave.
    You keep saying it's less yet when people tell you that itemlevels are higher to account for the acquisition rate to be slower you go "lalalala no they're shit no lie lol". Heck, for some classes heroic scenario gear is better than a few normal mode pieces because of itemization and you're complaining that you aren't getting enough progression outside of raiding. You do get as much as before, it just seems that you're either not casual (therefore the one heroic scenario a day is too few for you) or that you just can't see it.
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  13. #753
    High Overlord
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    They all should share same lockout.

  14. #754
    Moderator MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Treghell View Post
    They all should share same lockout.
    So no pugging or grouping up with friends on non-raid nights? No thanks.

    Discussing moderation is against the rules and makes a post liable for an infraction. Send a PM if that's not clear. Don't put it in a thread.
    Please report problem posts instead of responding to them.
    Forum FAQ. Read it.
    Post about the topic, not about one another.

    Treat me like anyone else unless you're breaking rules or we need to do site business. I play. I have likes and dislikes. We're not that different.

  15. #755
    Scarab Lord judgementofantonidas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Normie View Post
    You're talking about that; I'm talking about the dude who suggested that the roster have an extra 30% of players who are all expected to be available on every raid night, just so if there's a no-show, the raid can go on.

    And I'm saying that it's bullshit if he thinks that will actually happen.
    one man's bullshit is another man's successful raid team.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Deja Thoris View Post
    Bullshit. We got to 8/12HC with 10 players, then we recruited an 11th.

    I'm so tired of people stating their opinion as a certainty and being completely wrong. Not everybody is like you, not everybodies circumstances are yours.
    why? thats exactly what you just did.



    There is no bad RNG only bad L2P





  16. #756
    Quote Originally Posted by judgementofantonidas View Post
    why? thats exactly what you just did.
    It takes logical reasoning to say something is correct. It only takes one false example to prove it's false. Simple logic rules, really.
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  17. #757
    Quote Originally Posted by superdooper View Post
    Before I rant --- I love the idea of flex - I think it should be implemented for all difficulty levels.

    I hate having multiple difficulty levels. Does anybody seriously enjoy killing the same damn boss 100+ times per tier?

    Solution: One difficulty (heroic) with flex. Every month, any bosses that have been killed by at least 100 different guilds take a 10% nerf. Top end guilds can still push for rankings without worry, and the casuals can still see all content before next tier, and EVERYBODY gets excited when they kill a boss (if anybody even remembers that feeling)....

    And who cares about perfectly balancing flex --- let the top end guilds play around with the numbers & compositions themselves.
    Heroic will never be flex. There is competition in heroic raiding, that requires a rigid set of rules - something flexibility will never be able to offer.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Frolk View Post
    If ur an Heroic raider why would u do LFR and Flex?? (except maybe for alts)
    What he said. The heroic raiders will only do flex for the meta achievments as well as possible some trinket that might be good for progress. Nothing else.

  18. #758
    The Patient Ashwee's Avatar
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    If ur an Heroic raider why would u do LFR and Flex?? (except maybe for alts)
    Yeah, for gearing alts, but also for helping catch up in things such as the legendary quest if you miss bosses, as usually one player won't be in for every boss during both progression and farm as, if SoO is anything like ToT, certain classes will be favoured for certain fights.
    [sic]

  19. #759
    Quote Originally Posted by Paladinne1 View Post
    Yeah, for gearing alts, but also for helping catch up in things such as the legendary quest if you miss bosses, as usually one player won't be in for every boss during both progression and farm as, if SoO is anything like ToT, certain classes will be favoured for certain fights.
    There's no need to do legendary quests in SoO. You will be able to get your cloak on day one without stepping foot in a raid.
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  20. #760
    Field Marshal Toc's Avatar
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    The reason I see many casuals state they like LFR is because they don't have the time/schedule to commit to a raiding guild. I 100% understand this and agree.

    Then I watch some "progression" raiders come back and say, "If you can't commit to raiding then you shouldn't be raiding."

    Then I watch these same people who claim to be "progression" raiders whine that they have to commit more time to running LFR and now flex to min/max their characters.

    This makes me giggle. Until the people of this game realize that they way they play is not the one and only way these threads will never stop.

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