LFR -> Flex -> Normal -> Heroic: Why?

[Deleted]

Why are lots of people only moaning about the difficulty? It's more then just another difficulty level between LFR and normal raiding.

1. It's flexible, you are not bound to the 10 or 25 format, but also everything in between which can be great if you have too many for 10 mans, but not enough for 25's.
2. You are required to form a group yourself, and not just assembled from all the people that are in a queue. This will help tremendously with toxic behavior. If someone is an ass (AFK, terrible behavior etc) he will either get a warning from the raidleader, or get the boot immediately. Most likely that person will also get ignored by the others that are in the group making it harder for him / her to get a group in the future. This will mean a good reputation can become an item again, like it was before LFR and LFD.

I haven't played on the PTR and have no clue how it actually is to play in a flex raid, but I'll definitely try it in 5.4, at least with alts.

[cabyio]

Actually we took two months off because two of our guildies got married. (We are still ahead of the curve and in the upper crust of raiders, btw.)

If you truely can handle the content and are raiding just fine, why do you constantly rally for things to be easier. If something works for me I would never rally for it to be changed.

[Deleted]

I used to do a lot of raiding in wrath and cata , but since mop has come out I just find I don't have as much time as I used to have with my kids growing up and all the real life stuff getting in the way , yeah LFR is ok but I think this flex mode could be the answer for me anyway so I am looking forward to it.

[Deech86]

Flex is plugging a gap that LFR was supposed to fix. They created LFR because Normals were more difficult for some and pugs weren't happening as often as in Wrath. That seems to have failed if they now have to create Flex to fill that same gap. LFR has turned into a raid for people that hate raiding but still want the gear.

[Volitar]

Or, the wrong difficulty levels (no "normal" that is actually "normal").

- - - Updated - - -


There is someone at the "top" that has to run LFR?

Nope.

If you are in LFR for the legendary quest, that's because you aren't in normal for the bosses you aren't farming on heroic. Why aren't you in normal for those bosses?

You don't need to be in LFR for any reason at all if you are doing heroic progression, assuming you're any good at it.

During Heroic Progression you are swapped in and out every fight when you place a niche class, meaning I have to go into LFR and do the whole wing even if I only need 1 boss not to mention extending lockouts.

So yes I did a great deal of LFR during our progression even tho I wanted no part of it.

[NoRest4Wicked]

I don't think you understand.

If your raid leader tells you not to run Flex or LFR, because he thinks your time is better spent enjoying your life than spending 2-4 hours for another .5 ilevels, then showing up bitchy for raids because you hate running LFR, you would ignore his instruction?

No, I understand. No where was I complaining about LFR, or running it. I'm not saying I'm getting sick of LFR, remove LFR or anything. I agree with different levels for different players. I was replying to the "You aren't forced to" comment. Because maintaining a competitive edge is a requirement for competitive guilds.

[Seasz]

noone is force you to do all 4

[2]

[Terridon]

So I'm in a raiding guild where my raid leader doesn't want his players to have the most optimal gear that will help our progression? Gear is a nerf to content, the more gear you get the easier things become. I don't remember hearing someone say "We are going to lock our raid out on xxx final boss this week and skip a weeks worth of heroic gear because we don't want/need it".

Maybe he would say not to use flasks or food on progression attempts, which I've been in guilds that have said that (esp Heroic Rag attempts that didn't even reach p4). Did I still do it? Yes. Does that make me a try hard? I suppose, how dare I want to perform my role efficiently so I'm not wasting my guild mates time.

I'm that raidleader :P
Why should they waste their time in lfr to get 528 ilvl gear, when they currently have higher?
They could upgrade, but it's hardly worth it for 4 ilvls. I can see them go for some of the extremly good trinkets, but we're casual enough to not need it.(j

No, I understand. No where was I complaining about LFR, or running it. I'm not saying I'm getting sick of LFR, remove LFR or anything. I agree with different levels for different players. I was replying to the "You aren't forced to" comment. Because maintaining a competitive edge is a requirement for competitive guilds.

Same deal there. If you're a HC raider you're not staying competetive by getting gear many ilvls below your current gear. If you're a normal raider you only gain a little, except some very few items. Hardly worth it, and for a normal raider it doesn't matter.
We're going to have a flexday, with us getting the gear for people that can be a decent upgrade together with nice people, and give them less reason to wear themself out on lfr

Edit: Btw great avatar ;D

[MoanaLisa]

Or, the wrong difficulty levels (no "normal" that is actually "normal").

It seems to me that three levels of difficulty for organized groups is just about right:

Social Guilds: Flex (+pugs)
'Regular' Guilds: Normal (+pugs but fewer).
'Hardcore' Guilds: Heroic (pugs few and far between while content is current).

I don't think I have the right labels for the guild categories necessarily but it's good enough for this and I'm not trying to give offense to anyone.

LFR is really outside of all of that. Like Uzra29 said, it's more like a 25-man dungeon run and serves the purposes that content for random groups requires. For what it's worth our guild struggled and is still struggling with both getting a well-defined raid team together and normal difficulty. So flex is a good fit for us, especially for those nights when 12 or 13 people show up which now that no one needs to sit out necessarily I hope we have more often.

I still don't really understand why anyone who raids on a regular basis thinks they have to do all four versions of the raid. And if you don't raid on a regular basis at least one of the difficulty levels--on either end depending--probably doesn't much apply to you.

[Deleted]

If you truely can handle the content and are raiding just fine, why do you constantly rally for things to be easier. If something works for me I would never rally for it to be changed.

Because i'm not advocating for what I personally enjoy or can do. "I've got a big dick as well but that doesn't mean I have to make porn." - Kumar.

I'm looking at the average player, the completion stats (with a sidelong glance at the sub numbers I might add) and the way the game is going. I'm also looking at friends of mine who used to play normals perfectly fine, but for who the games ever increasing complexity is leaving adrift. I'd rather drop down to flexi to play with those guys than find people more my level gameplay wise who are far too fricking serious about the whole thing.

You don't see guys like me on the forums often, but I guarantee there are loads of us knocking around. We just wanna play the odd weekend or weekday night without it cost thousands and/or needing to be ultra stringent about who we take with us. You know, like it used to be.

[NoRest4Wicked]

I'm that raidleader :P
Why should they waste their time in lfr to get 528 ilvl gear, when they currently have higher?
They could upgrade, but it's hardly worth it for 4 ilvls. I can see them go for some of the extremly good trinkets, but we're casual enough to not need it.(j

Same deal there. If you're a HC raider you're not staying competetive by getting gear many ilvls below your current gear. If you're a normal raider you only gain a little, except some very few items. Hardly worth it, and for a normal raider it doesn't matter.
We're going to have a flexday, with us getting the gear for people that can be a decent upgrade together with nice people, and give them less reason to wear themself out on lfr

Edit: Btw great avatar ;D

Thanks :P I had said this in a post before the one you quoted - Of course this isn't an issue for HC players this tier. However, next expansion when everyone is trying to shed their dungeon blues.... You want your raiders to stay out of LFR/Flex? I think not :P

[Lord Blackmore]

I wish they would replace LOLFR with Flex, but no, they won't do that.

If you actually understood what the issue Flex addresses and figured out that the issues being addressed with LFR, you wouldn't have made the comment.

[Terridon]

Thanks :P I had said this in a post before the one you quoted - Of course this isn't an issue for HC players this tier. However, next expansion when everyone is trying to shed their dungeon blues.... You want your raiders to stay out of LFR/Flex? I think not :P

Would do what i said still. Make a flexday and run with that. Might be a bit slower progress, but less chance that people burn out on it. Doing the same things 3 times over each week is more than i want to do. Not expecting any to do more than me. If they do it's their own fault <.<

Besides lfr opens slower then flex, so might even have cleared flex before we have all of lfr open.

[Omega10]

"Why would it make sense to nerf something that is difficult because you aren't good enough to complete it? Believe it or not, there are people that like going up against consistently challenging bosses."

And, believe it or not, there is content perfectly suited for these types of people. Its called heroic raiding. And the other levels of raiding are for people that want to fight against content with a lower level of difficulty. Four levels allows people to find the difficulty suitable for them.

Your comment is EXACTLY why the four difficulties are desirable

[Spotnick]

And this is why folks Blizzard got rid of the ICC models.. people whining about feeling forced to run multiple times the same raid to get emblems of frost.

Whatever they do, there will always be people whining. I'm an heroic raider, I truly don't give a crap if I run the raid multiple times on my main character. I love raiding and I love improving my character.

I am pretty certain the people complaining about those are those running LFR on 10 alts. Usually more organized guilds will queue together for LFR and most likely for Flex and faceroll the place and have a blast while doing it.

[Mormolyce]

While it might be cleaner to have fewer difficulties, Flexi is just too disruptive to the existing WoW raiding population.

Also - the game only has two DIFFICULTIES, NM and HM. LFR and Flexi are accessibility options. The fact that they are easier is just a consequence of the level of organisation possible in their makeup.

And who cares about perfectly balancing flex --- let the top end guilds play around with the numbers & compositions themselves.

The trouble is everyone would feel pressured to do the same.

Situation 1: having more players is always better. So 10m guilds are effectively forced to recruit 15 more people and become 25s. Ouch.

Situation 2: having fewer players is always better. This forces 25m guilds to bench 15 people every night - effectively they are turned into 10m guilds. Ouch.

Situation 3: the optimal number of players varies boss to boss. So now it becomes something that you read on Icy Veins, and Paragon/Method/Vodka experiment with to min-max. And everyone else has to bench random numbers of players on each boss. Horrible.

- - - Updated - - -

I still don't really understand why anyone who raids on a regular basis thinks they have to do all four versions of the raid. And if you don't raid on a regular basis at least one of the difficulty levels--on either end depending--probably doesn't much apply to you.

I've been convinced for a long time now that the people who make those complaints don't raid in any kind of regular group.

[squid]

Your suggestion make this game five time easier for no real reason.

[tangers58]

noone is force you to do all 4

Ha, you must be an LFR hero. If you do real raids you are expected to do anything you can to gear up.

[Mortaeron]

I believe it's just nice to have options. Anything more than what you expect is something that you have the opportunity to try out. You don't have to do it, but if you feel like doing it, you can... :P

[Otimus]

I don't usually delve into these type threads, but I have to ask, oh wise forum-poster who speaks for the masses, what should Blizzard focus their development efforts and budget on?

Dailies? PVP? Pet Battles? Professions? Leveling?

What is something that gives progression and longevity to the game, that has multiple iterations of difficulty and entry, and that allows players of SOME portion of the playerbase a path to progress their character over time without huge barriers to entry?

With 6/7/10/12mil subscribers, you can never please everyone ALL the time. That's foolish and would be folly to try. Instead, most wise business models try to offer as much as they can to as many people as possible, in as many different ways as possible to promote repeat purchases/customers.

Obviously raiding isn't a panacaea to solve any issues, but it does tick many of those boxes for a lot of players on whatever difficulty they choose to raid.

But, clearly, you have a better idea. So....let's have it.

No, I don't. But the fact of the matter is, when you exclude LFR, only about 10% of those millions are even doing it :x Clearly, something is inherently wrong there.