LFR -> Flex -> Normal -> Heroic: Why?

[Deleted]

You didn't offend me. The blatantly incorrect stuff you stated did. Theres a difference.

I don't disagree having subs is a good thing. I do disagree with blanket "can't" statements. Millions upon millions of people playing the game, there is no one size fits all.

It's not incorrect. Many guilds have problems if they only have 10 man in their roster. For a long term guilds, having only 10 people will surely lead to death of guild. And by long term, I mean guilds who are here for more then one expansion. Will it work having only 10 man for shorter period of time? Yes. But for long term I really don't see anything good coming from it.

[DoctorDoomkin]

The way I see it:

LFR- If you don't have a guild, or alot of time to play the game and learn every single mechanic of a normal raid, do it.

Flex- Want to do normal, but can't because some jerkwad decided to say "Yes" and didn't show up anyway, causing the rest of your guildies to be pissed off because the content is now impossible to complete? Now you have the option to do that at the expense of lesser item lvl drops.

Normal- Got 10 or 25 people that showed up? Do it.

Heroic- Got 10 or 25 people that showed up and is willing to go balls to the walls against the hardest content Blizzard could currently offer? Knock yourself out...again and again and again and again and againand again and againand again and again and aga...


I honestly don't see why this is a big deal. If you got the people, do the content. Why care about the person getting the bronze medal when you are getting the gold medal?

[Deja Thoris]

It's not incorrect. Many guilds have problems if they only have 10 man in their roster. For a long term guilds, having only 10 people will surely lead to death of guild. And by long term, I mean guilds who are here for more then one expansion. Will it work having only 10 man for shorter period of time? Yes. But for long term I really don't see anything good coming from it.

I just presented you with our situation which is at complete disagreement with your statement. That makes it incorrect, wrong, inaccurate, not right, mistaken.... Getting the picture?

You said "can't" be successful. I just said you can. Theres plenty of examples of it. Just because your opinion "I don't see anything good coming from it" differs it doesn't make you right.

[Deleted]

The only guilds I have ever seen going to complete shit is the guilds that only have 10 players. Having a 10 man roster leads to pugging and/or raid cancelling whenever someone is missing. I have been in 3 guilds this expansion that fell apart for this reason. From my experience, not keeping substitutes kills raid teams, rotating people does not.

In a world where people either put up with rotating or don't raid, that's true.

When theres an untaken option to raid, it's not going to.

Quick note on something you mentioned and a few others did as well "bad management" - well, duh. Just like being amazing at dps doesn't get handed out at birth, neither do great managerial skills. It's completely normal for people to be doing 50% of their max dps and it's completely normal for people to be shit at guild management. It's not like most people get a lot of experience man managing in their daily lives either, most are workers (or in wows case mostly workers/students/unemployed.)

Once again, sitting there with your arms folded going "BAD!!! THAT'S BAD!!!111" doesn't change anything.

Wow is a game of incentives. Minus the HC loot/HC cache/HC achievement carrot you can forget about asking people to sit in a city waiting for your call.

[Deleted]

Guild management and doing dps is hardly comparative. Doing good dps is a matter of knowledge, gear, presence of mind to keep your rotation and natural ability to mash buttons. Making good decisions for the raid is common sense, somethig that anyone should have learned. If you do not realise that being 10 people on every raid and your raiders dont have remotely close to 100% attendancy is asking for trouble, or that if you have more than 10 people, you should not bench the same guy over and over and over again, you should probably not be in the position of someone calling the decisions.

I can only base my opinion on my own experiences, I have been in guilds ranging from all varieties of skill, progress and commitment, I have never had an issue with it. From my experience, people have no issue being rotated as long as it is done in a fashion that is well established and everyone know what is going on, people do however have a problem with raids being cancelled.

Now, as said, this is only my own experiences, but I think that with all my time in WoW I would have seen this issue atleast once if it actually was one. A lot of people seem to share this opinion in this thread though, leading me to think that my experiences are not unique. The only people that seems to parade with the flag that being rotated makes people leave guilds, are the same people that always come with exaggerations, so forgive me if I take that with a grain of salt until some more reliable and neutral players come forth with the same opinion.

For all sense and purposes, the only scenarios that you have described with people getting mad because being rotated, has to me sound like guilds where the guild master has no business being guild master as he has (most likely) done quite a terrible job. The guilds you describe seem to have no set baseline or communication between members.

[Deleted]

Guild management and doing dps is hardly comparative.

Neither is the ability to understand concepts, apparently.

Doing good dps is a matter of knowledge, gear, presence of mind to keep your rotation and natural ability to mash buttons. Making good decisions for the raid is common sense, somethig that anyone should have learned.

They haven't. Just like with the DPS issue, people don't have the skill, they won't acquire the skill and so you should just accept it.

If you do not realise that being 10 people on every raid and your raiders dont have remotely close to 100% attendancy is asking for trouble, or that if you have more than 10 people, you should not bench the same guy over and over and over again, you should probably not be in the position of someone calling the decisions.

No shit, really? And now, how is it actually like in reality. Oh, it's different than how you'd like it to be.

Accept it then.

I can only base my opinion on my own experiences, I have been in guilds ranging from all varieties of skill, progress and commitment, I have never had an issue with it. From my experience, people have no issue being rotated as long as it is done in a fashion that is well established and everyone know what is going on, people do however have a problem with raids being cancelled.

In a world where there is no other option but to be patient, yes. In a world where the raid leader can click a button and invite you but doesn't because he wants better loot himself, no. Anyone with an ounce of self respect will ditch such a raid asap.

Now, as said, this is only my own experiences, but I think that with all my time in WoW I would have seen this issue atleast once if it actually was one. A lot of people seem to share this opinion in this thread though, leading me to think that my experiences are not unique. The only people that seems to parade with the flag that being rotated makes people leave guilds, are the same people that always come with exaggerations, so forgive me if I take that with a grain of salt until some more reliable and neutral players come forth with the same opinion.

For all sense and purposes, the only scenarios that you have described with people getting mad because being rotated, has to me sound like guilds where the guild master has no business being guild master as he has (most likely) done quite a terrible job. The guilds you describe seem to have no set baseline or communication between members.

You aren't changing your wolrd view to account for the new factor - flexi raids. Everything you say is more or less true (apart from your crazy misunderstandings about how your own hardcore experiences match everyone elses as far as dps and man management skills go) but none of it will apply in a flexi world.

it's reset day. Your GM wants to leave you in orgrimmar and go raid normal mode. You might get to go in an hour or two, or you might get to go tomorrow, or later in the week.

Another GM on reset days piles everyone into flexi mode and does normal modes afterwards (probably using the best of the week from the flexi).

Which guild are you, as an average player who just wants to raid a bit, going to join?

[Deleted]

They haven't. Just like with the DPS issue, people don't have the skill, they won't acquire the skill and so you should just accept it.

So, if I understand this correctly, your main issue is based on people that are horrible leaders and should never in the first place be in a management role, making a guild, making terrible decisions, and it does not work out? I mean, honesty, everything you say seems like you have guild masters that are completely clueless about their guild and what they are doing.

No shit, really? And now, how is it actually like in reality. Oh, it's different than how you'd like it to be.

Accept it then.

Maybe you should accept that your reality is not the only reality. If you had people in management with no management skills, than I'm sorry for you, but that is hardly the "reality". Must people leading guilds know how to make basic decisions. I am speaking from my reality of the game which includes dozens of guilds over the years. I can't accept there is another reality, since all the proof and evidence I have seen points to the opposite, as do most people in this thread. If anything, you should probably realise how the real reality is. Your problem is something that I have never even heard of existing, maybe it is unique to you?

In a world where there is no other option but to be patient, yes. In a world where the raid leader can click a button and invite you but doesn't because he wants better loot himself, no. Anyone with an ounce of self respect will ditch such a raid asap.

Yes, of course. I do not even understand this. If your GM is benching you because he wants loot for himself, of course you should leave that raid. What was your point even? A GM doing this will not be a GM for long since that guild would disband almost instantly.

You aren't changing your wolrd view to account for the new factor - flexi raids. Everything you say is more or less true (apart from your crazy misunderstandings about how your own hardcore experiences match everyone elses as far as dps and man management skills go) but none of it will apply in a flexi world.

My experiences are not only hardcore, they vary from extremely casual to hardcore, name a type of guild and I have been in it, I know what is going on in all levels of guilds in WoW.

it's reset day. Your GM wants to leave you in orgrimmar and go raid normal mode. You might get to go in an hour or two, or you might get to go tomorrow, or later in the week.

Another GM on reset days piles everyone into flexi mode and does normal modes afterwards (probably using the best of the week from the flexi).

Which guild are you, as an average player who just wants to raid a bit, going to join?

I would probably raid in the guild where I feel the most home and know the people the best, as I get to raid in both examples.
First example seems pretty extreme though. Most guilds will probably do flexi before normal. If your guild is going into normal before flexi, it is probably a more hardcore guild, in which case you as a player probably expect being rotated out. Even so, being benched for 2 raids is also highly unlikely.

So I do not really understand your choice of using "an average player", as your first example does not display an average raiding guild. Basically you said
"We have a hardcore raiding guild and an average raiding guild, which guild is the average raider gonna want to join"
The real answer would actually be a question, what was the average player doing in the hardcore guild in the first place?
You don't join the National Orange Juice Association if you are more of an Apple Juice guy.

[kamuimac]

I can only base my opinion on my own experiences, I have been in guilds ranging from all varieties of skill, progress and commitment, I have never had an issue with it. From my experience, people have no issue being rotated as long as it is done in a fashion that is well established and everyone know what is going on, people do however have a problem with raids being cancelled.

.

oh yes but this is truth ofc and ur are 100 % right - now heres come the thing - i have yet too see a team and i havent seen one in 9 years of playing where people gets rotated equally - there is always this tank who always have to be there there are ususally 2 healers without whom progress isnt possible and there comes this awkward moment when u ask - ok so who want to sit out so that player X can come in - then players Y,Z,A come out with "i have no problem to sit out" -= but they are ususally those high on dps or best healers whom u simply cant sit out if u want to progress and then in the end this rotation eveyrone tlaks about in 10 man is rotation of few of the lower end dps and they got rotated literaly all the time - which bring frustration and they finally step out with " why the hell im being rotated all the time when players Y,Z,A are never touched and they are on all kills even thought they dont need any gear from it " and it usully leads to "screw this /gquit" or u hear from bench "why u keep rotating me when there are people who never sit out "- then those who never sit out sometime man up and tell ok take him im sitting up - they take player from bench but since he hasnt spend so much time as others with team he isnt on the same harmony/synergy lv and end up stoping and sometime delaying progress which leads to slowing down progress and frustration of whole team - now who would u rater loose weak dps from bench or your best dpses ?

i am well avere that this problem doesnt exist in guilds which are 13/13 HC atm - but in guilds which are normal mode raiding guild i have this shit soo many time its hard to count -_- this is why keeping too larger rooster is simply impossible in 10 man normal raiding unless ur mega lucky -_-

[Nobleshield]

They haven't. Just like with the DPS issue, people don't have the skill, they won't acquire the skill and so you should just accept it.

What? If people don't have the skill and won't acquire the skill, then to be perfectly honest they don't BELONG in Normal modes. Sad, but true. Of course now these people will have an option in Flex hopefully so they aren't completely shut out. Sorry but there has to be a line drawn at some point; I'm against super challenging Normal modes that only those going into heroics will clear, but I don't want unskilled DPS who not only don't know what to do but refuse to improve in my raids either. There has to be SOME kind of benchmark of "You are ready for X content at Y level". I can accept that there are people who just aren't quite as skilled, for whatever reason, and even when they try their best their best falls short. However, I cannot accept that these kinds of people have a place at all levels of the game. They can run LFR, crappy as it is, and starting next week they can run Flex. Hopefully they can learn to improve. But they don't have a place in Normal or especially Heroic raids; they used to be able to be carried in Normal and I miss the fact that can't be done, but it can't be done anymore, and these people have to accept that there is SOME competency required.

In a world where there is no other option but to be patient, yes. In a world where the raid leader can click a button and invite you but doesn't because he wants better loot himself, no. Anyone with an ounce of self respect will ditch such a raid asap.

Let me make sure I understand this, just so we are on the same page. You are basically saying that in a world with Flex raiding, anyone on standby/rotation will probably leave and go join a Flex guild because there is by definition no standby/rotating in Flex? I'm not sure I agree, although I can see this happening in many situations. The fact of the matter is that Flex appeals to a large crowd of players, but not to all players. I certainly agree that a guild that can do Normal but has no desire/chance to raid Heroic probably WILL experience this, and that's fine if you ask me as you can treat Normal as if it was heroic, and Flex as if it was normal with the added bonus of being able to bring everyone available. You take an iLevel hit but if you get into the mentality that Flex IS Normal, then Normal is more tempting because it's as though it was Heroic without the Heroic tag on the drops.

You aren't changing your wolrd view to account for the new factor - flexi raids. Everything you say is more or less true (apart from your crazy misunderstandings about how your own hardcore experiences match everyone elses as far as dps and man management skills go) but none of it will apply in a flexi world.

On the contrary, I think Firefly's viewpoint does matter a lot even in a Flexi world, but not the kind of guild that you are talking about. Now I don't know anything about you beyond your posts here. I don't know your progress, I don't know how you found T15 and T14 but I'm assuming fairly hard like I did, given your posts on the subject. A "Flexi World" isn't going to suddenly make every normal guild drop down to Flex guilds, and I don't know why you would think that would be the case. I've previously said that I can certainly see that the 10-man raid scene is going to have a schism and break into two "castes" if you will:

1) The "Flex" caste that primarily runs Flex mode so they can bring everyone, and dabbles around not quite as seriously in Normal mode
2) The "Heroic" caste that clears Normal in a couple of weeks max and starts to work on Heroics ASAP

Firefly is in Caste #2 (I'm not even sure if he's a 10-man raider though, so let's say that if he was 10-man he would be in Caste #2). You (and others with similar views like Osmeric and Glorious Leader) are in Caste #1. Me personally I have no idea because my guild would probably be Caste #1 but I would prefer to be Caste #2, but that's not relevant to the discussion. Pretty much any guild that didn't clear ToT on normal let's say no more than a month after launch would be in Caste #1 because frankly Caste #1 would appeal a lot more to those guilds.

The presence of Flex doesn't immediately invalidate the kind of guild that would be long to Caste #2, it just makes them a little more rare instead of trying to push all 10N guilds into Caste #2.

it's reset day. Your GM wants to leave you in orgrimmar and go raid normal mode. You might get to go in an hour or two, or you might get to go tomorrow, or later in the week.

Another GM on reset days piles everyone into flexi mode and does normal modes afterwards (probably using the best of the week from the flexi).

Which guild are you, as an average player who just wants to raid a bit, going to join?

As an "average player who just wants to raid a bit" the second, of course. But your example is skewed because the GM in the first example has the wrong expectations. The way you worded it indicates that it's really a Caste #1 guild as explained above, and not Caste #2. A guild like that shouldn't be having that sort of attitude, because that WILL annoy people. The only guild that should be doing what that first example is doing is a guild that is going to be pushing into heroic mode fairly soon (because when you are pushing heroics soon, you attempt/down a heroic boss and then usually swap back to normal at some point to finish clearing), and so their raiders would already know that being rotated in/out does happen, so that situation wouldn't happen at all. What you have illustrated is that GMs/Officers who don't know what the actual capabilities of their guild are, and just try to blindly follow what the "hardcore" guilds do thinking it will solve all their problems, and then wondering why they have standby people leave; here's a hint: Because your guild isn't the type of guild that should be putting people on standby, it's the type of guild that should be focusing on Flex and Normal is a bonus.

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oh yes but this is truth ofc and ur are 100 % right - now heres come the thing - i have yet too see a team and i havent seen one in 9 years of playing where people gets rotated equally - there is always this tank who always have to be there there are ususally 2 healers without whom progress isnt possible and there comes this awkward moment when u ask - ok so who want to sit out so that player X can come in - then players Y,Z,A come out with "i have no problem to sit out" -= but they are ususally those high on dps or best healers whom u simply cant sit out if u want to progress and then in the end this rotation eveyrone tlaks about in 10 man is rotation of few of the lower end dps and they got rotated literaly all the time - which bring frustration and they finally step out with " why the hell im being rotated all the time when players Y,Z,A are never touched and they are on all kills even thought they dont need any gear from it " and it usully leads to "screw this /gquit" or u hear from bench "why u keep rotating me when there are people who never sit out "- then those who never sit out sometime man up and tell ok take him im sitting up - they take player from bench but since he hasnt spend so much time as others with team he isnt on the same harmony/synergy lv and end up stoping and sometime delaying progress which leads to slowing down progress and frustration of whole team - now who would u rater loose weak dps from bench or your best dpses ?

Now this I agree with. Usually being rotated out only applies to the DPS, because you nearly always have tanks/healers that form your "core" (hell in my guild both tanks and 2/3 of the healers are officers), so I can see how it's not exactly fair if you're on the DPS end and asked to sit occasionally but your tanks and healers get to be in every fight all the time. Of course there's also a lot more pressure and responsibility on that end.

[Deleted]

I see a few types of guild forming up.


1. The strict flex guild, only does flex.
2. The flex guild, focuses on flex, clears that first. Attempt to do some normal modes after flex is doe
3. The normal mode guild, similar to 2, does flex quite a bit, probably starts with clearing flex, but in time, once people do not need that much from flex, will ditch flex in favor of normal progress at some time.
4. The hardcore guild, will clear flex for gear but focus is on normal/heroic. Quite likely flex is being run on off-raid days with those that want to do it, but anyone that needs gear is pretty much expected to be there.
5. The extreme hardcore guild, gonna run flex and heroic every week.

For some reason I think 2 and 3 is gonna be more common than 1 though.

[Nobleshield]

I see a few types of guild forming up.


1. The strict flex guild, only does flex.
2. The flex guild, focuses on flex, clears that first. Attempt to do some normal modes after flex is doe
3. The normal mode guild, similar to 2, does flex quite a bit, probably starts with clearing flex, but in time, once people do not need that much from flex, will ditch flex in favor of normal progress at some time.
4. The hardcore guild, will clear flex for gear but focus is on normal/heroic. Quite likely flex is being run on off-raid days with those that want to do it, but anyone that needs gear is pretty much expected to be there.
5. The extreme hardcore guild, gonna run flex and heroic every week.

For some reason I think 2 and 3 is gonna be more common than 1 though.

Yeah, I really don't see anyone ONLY doing Flex, there's no reason to. Even a casual not-really-raiding guild tries to get 10 people and goes to wipe on early bosses in normal, so there'd be no reason to not do that but you can also have big guild events with everyone on doing Flex and having lots of fun.

[Deleted]

oh yes but this is truth ofc and ur are 100 % right - now heres come the thing - i have yet too see a team and i havent seen one in 9 years of playing where people gets rotated equally - there is always this tank who always have to be there there are ususally 2 healers without whom progress isnt possible and there comes this awkward moment when u ask - ok so who want to sit out so that player X can come in - then players Y,Z,A come out with "i have no problem to sit out" -= but they are ususally those high on dps or best healers whom u simply cant sit out if u want to progress and then in the end this rotation eveyrone tlaks about in 10 man is rotation of few of the lower end dps and they got rotated literaly all the time - which bring frustration and they finally step out with " why the hell im being rotated all the time when players Y,Z,A are never touched and they are on all kills even thought they dont need any gear from it " and it usully leads to "screw this /gquit" or u hear from bench "why u keep rotating me when there are people who never sit out "- then those who never sit out sometime man up and tell ok take him im sitting up - they take player from bench but since he hasnt spend so much time as others with team he isnt on the same harmony/synergy lv and end up stoping and sometime delaying progress which leads to slowing down progress and frustration of whole team - now who would u rater loose weak dps from bench or your best dpses ?

i am well avere that this problem doesnt exist in guilds which are 13/13 HC atm - but in guilds which are normal mode raiding guild i have this shit soo many time its hard to count -_- this is why keeping too larger rooster is simply impossible in 10 man normal raiding unless ur mega lucky -_-

Yeah, rotating people is often not equal as you say, but it should be equal within each role. If you have 15 members in a 10 man, you should for obvious reasons now have 2 tanks 2 healers and 11 dps.

Most guilds I have been in have found a way to rotate out even the "top dpsers". I feel like in a guild, the members should be on the same level. Player X's dps should not be so much higher than Y that you can not kill the boss. Though I can see that happening, and then you have a problem, your raid teams consists of people that do not match well. If X is really that much worse than Y,Z,A that you really cant replace him, you might have to take an honest sit down with him and explain that, being honest with people goes a long way, and if they feel like a part of the raid team they will understand that. You could ask him to try to improve so that you could take him in on more fights, but something in my backbone says to me that if a player is that far behind the rest of the team that you cant even rotate him in on easy fights, then he has no place in that guild.

[Alerzhul]

Before I rant --- I love the idea of flex - I think it should be implemented for all difficulty levels.

I hate having multiple difficulty levels. Does anybody seriously enjoy killing the same damn boss 100+ times per tier?

Solution: One difficulty (heroic) with flex. Every month, any bosses that have been killed by at least 100 different guilds take a 10% nerf. Top end guilds can still push for rankings without worry, and the casuals can still see all content before next tier, and EVERYBODY gets excited when they kill a boss (if anybody even remembers that feeling)....

And who cares about perfectly balancing flex --- let the top end guilds play around with the numbers & compositions themselves.

This is the main reason why vanilla and BC >>>>>>>> all others for me.

[Deleted]

I just presented you with our situation which is at complete disagreement with your statement. That makes it incorrect, wrong, inaccurate, not right, mistaken.... Getting the picture?

You said "can't" be successful. I just said you can. Theres plenty of examples of it. Just because your opinion "I don't see anything good coming from it" differs it doesn't make you right.

Ok ok, I am getting the picture. Just calm down man. I wish you good luck with your progress.

[Glorious Leader]

What? If people don't have the skill and won't acquire the skill, then to be perfectly honest they don't BELONG in Normal modes.

Let's table that patronizing arrogant BS behind this statement for a bit and ask ourselves what exactly is NORMAL meant to mean? NORMAL in a game like starcraft for example is so blindingly easy that you get your hand held for almost half the experience. NORMAL is obviously a relative measure to what the population can and can't do. If the population is made up of people who can't aquire the skill or won't acquire the skill then it really becomes a question of why do we bother making this content in the first place when theirs apparently so few people who want to actually do it.

[Floopa]

Let's table that patronizing arrogant BS behind this statement for a bit and ask ourselves what exactly is NORMAL meant to mean? NORMAL in a game like starcraft for example is so blindingly easy that you get your hand held for almost half the experience. NORMAL is obviously a relative measure to what the population can and can't do. If the population is made up of people who can't aquire the skill or won't acquire the skill then it really becomes a question of why do we bother making this content in the first place when theirs apparently so few people who want to actually do it.

Why does touhou exist?

[Fluorescent0]

NORMAL is obviously a relative measure to what the population can and can't do.

Can you refer to a quote stating exactly this since it's so obvious?

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And before you tell me "because that's what the word means".

nor·mal [nawr-muhl] Show IPA
adjective
1. conforming to the standard or the common type; usual; not abnormal; regular; natural.
2. serving to establish a standard.

Not necessarily.

[Glorious Leader]

Can you refer to a quote stating exactly this since it's so obvious?

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And before you tell me "because that's what the word means".

nor·mal [nawr-muhl] Show IPA
adjective
1. conforming to the standard or the common type; usual; not abnormal; regular; natural.
2. serving to establish a standard.

Not necessarily.

Okay. In that case. Heroics are the new normals. Everyone should do it since I've declared that's the standard.... Everyone not completing heroics is obviously below normal... Of course this is absurd but by the second set in the definition you stated it could be very true. That is the point ultimately though ITS ALL RELATIVE either to what the population can achieve or what the standard is set to. NORMAL has no absolute meaning.

Now you can get on a high horse and say well we think the standard should be high because we're game snobs or you can accept that
the first part of the definition is the one you should use, conforming to the common type. Heroic raiders are actual abnormal, irregular and not natural in the slightest. Increasingly this is also becoming true of so called "normal".

[Fluorescent0]

Okay. In that case. Heroics are the new normals. Everyone should do it since I've declared that's the standard.... Everyone not completing heroics is obviously below normal.

btw the first part of the definition is the one you should use, conforming to the common type.

Except it's the developers deciding what normal is, not you. And it's still them deciding which definition to use, not you. That's how you think it should be done.

[Glorious Leader]

Why does touhou exist?

Wtf is touhou?

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Except it's the developers deciding what normal is, not you. And it's still them deciding which definition to use, not you. That's how you think it should be done.

Read my edit. The developers are as clue less as you. They're on the same god damn high horse. Instead of letting what the figures show normal should be at they've instead insisted to be game snobs. When they get fired, pink slipped, or moved on to other projects I"m sure the comfort of the forums warriors who defended them in their time of hubris will bring them comfort.