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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Yizu View Post
    Yea none of them wer made easier but because they have to run 1 specific dungeon 200x (not exaggerating) just to get full set everyone prolly mastered them already after a year. And every dungeon boss has a way to "cheese" it, fanboys will say its clever use of mechanics, when its obviously not. It was a bad grind.
    This is not really an option now because A/Net changed the looting to only give gold for the first run on a path per day (something along those lines).

    What I find very strange is this. There are probably 40 dungeon paths and another 10 fractal sections. A lot of people will run a single path because its more lucrative and then complain that the game is boring. Instead of running different dungeons and routes (obviously you have to do the same dungeon if you are looking for something from there) to keep things interesting, they will run the path of least resistance and then complain about it. The same thing can be said for the people failing an event for gold. They also complain that the game is boring and complain even more when the farm area is removed. There is a lot to do in the game, not everything is for everyone but thats a different point. the new invasions take a bit long for me so I probably won't do too many of them. That's not A/Nets fault as a lot of people really enjoy them. You won't see me complaining about how they are too long because there are plenty of events that are shorter. While they may not be as lucrative, they exist.

  2. #42
    Bloodsail Admiral nevermore's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yizu View Post
    because they have to run 1 specific dungeon 200x (not exaggerating) just to get full set
    Ummm, yes you are... o_O

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Yizu View Post
    I had full twilight arbor fairy gear, 3 pcs of crucible of eternity gear, plenty of arah tokens before i quit a month after release. I have my own quick farm group. It was fast and easy if u have your own grp, yes it gets easier in time. But for pugs those 3 dungeons (hard paths) on the 1st month of release was a nightmare. 90% of the people on my server (JQ) only does the bugged dungeons just to get gear (CoF). Please dont deny this.

    Yea none of them wer made easier but because they have to run 1 specific dungeon 200x (not exaggerating) just to get full set everyone prolly mastered them already after a year. And every dungeon boss has a way to "cheese" it, fanboys will say its clever use of mechanics, when its obviously not. It was a bad grind.
    Doesnt change the fact that its a skill issue. And you dont need to run a dungeon 200 times to get a set of gear since they changed the rewards about 1 month after release. You dont need to run it 200 times to master the mechanics either, just read some threads about group composition, copy a build for your class and you're already good to go
    Did you even play the game in the last few months?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gray_Matter View Post
    This is not really an option now because A/Net changed the looting to only give gold for the first run on a path per day (something along those lines).

    What I find very strange is this. There are probably 40 dungeon paths and another 10 fractal sections. A lot of people will run a single path because its more lucrative and then complain that the game is boring. Instead of running different dungeons and routes (obviously you have to do the same dungeon if you are looking for something from there) to keep things interesting, they will run the path of least resistance and then complain about it. The same thing can be said for the people failing an event for gold. They also complain that the game is boring and complain even more when the farm area is removed. There is a lot to do in the game, not everything is for everyone but thats a different point. the new invasions take a bit long for me so I probably won't do too many of them. That's not A/Nets fault as a lot of people really enjoy them. You won't see me complaining about how they are too long because there are plenty of events that are shorter. While they may not be as lucrative, they exist.
    To be fair, there are some underlying issues that heavily promote this kind of mentality
    Precursors being extremely rare RNG drops that cost hundreds of gold is one matter. Crafting a legendary is the only real longtime goal that the game has and you basically need to buy the precursor off the TP. Therefore many people feel the need to exploit the current most lucrative farming method even if its boring as hell. This could be solved by offering several ways to make money but there is always 1 method that just completely towers above the rest. Cof 1 or deadeye farming cant even compare to any other farm method in the game, its not a matter of making 10-25% less gold per hour, more like 50-75% less
    Last edited by Enkidulgaa; 2013-08-24 at 03:18 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by icylock View Post
    Gamon spends more time of his knees and back than haris pilton...

  4. #44
    And every dungeon boss has a way to "cheese" it, fanboys will say its clever use of mechanics, when its obviously not. It was a bad grind.
    This is more a fault with the PVE community. MMO players want max reward for minimum effort, and then spend a lot of time complaining that every game they play is too easy and for babies. Basically, they avoid challenge, exploit, or cheapen the experience whenever they can, nullifying mechanics along the way, and then pat themselves on the back for being pro.

    Their min/max focus also tends to create an atmosphere where people look through the PVE in the game via a narrow lens. My favorite dungeons are Sorrow's Embrace and Crucible of Eternity, but none of the PVE talk is about those dungeons because other than SE1, they aren't a part of gold farming. As well, when ANet overhauled Ascalon Catacombs, they added some boss fights that require talking to each other, coordination, and other such things. The result? Amount of people playing AC drastically dropped, and when I last went at it with a semi-pug, all the puggers wanted to do was cheese every boss fight. Instead of arranging interrupts and thinking the fight out, you have someone in your party yelling for everyone to face this corner wall, stack on top of each other, and jump up and down.

  5. #45
    Bloodsail Admiral nevermore's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zed zebes View Post
    This is more a fault with the PVE community.
    Also ANet kinda dropped the ball in terms of dungeon design as well (I knowww this has been discussed a lot). When cheesing and skipping is that much more appealing to players, you know something's not right. I mean doing Arah exp with skipping all trash takes like 30 mins on average, however if you want to do it "properly" and kill the trash in your way etc you're looking at 2-3 hours. That's basically forcing the players to skip.
    And then you look at the bosses, most of them are just normal mobs with a lot of health and some condition restrictions with barely any tactics, and even if they have some special abilities you can just ignore them most of the time.
    Gamers are like water, they'll always find the easiest way and stick to it (as long as the reward is the same) -- it's up to the developers to make content reasonable and enjoyable while at the same time closing all the loopholes for exploiting/cheesing stuff.

    I think a good start would be reducing the HP of all dungeon trash mobs by at least 50-60% but they no longer disengage after a certain distance (so they chase you throughout the whole dungeon).

  6. #46
    cheesing and skipping is always more appealing to pve players

    That's my point. This isn't an oddity only found in Guild Wars 2. People use exploits in WoW raids. My first 30+ dungeon runs in vanilla WoW was full of skipping and using terrain in unintended ways.

    I actually find the trash fights fun. The combat is fun in general in game. It's always been the bosses that are less interesting. I do agree they need to close loopholes, but that's also fighting against the waves.

  7. #47
    This is more a fault with the PVE community. MMO players want max reward for minimum effort, and then spend a lot of time complaining that every game they play is too easy and for babies. Basically, they avoid challenge, exploit, or cheapen the experience whenever they can, nullifying mechanics along the way, and then pat themselves on the back for being pro.
    To be fair, there's really nothing in GW2 worth doing for the "because it's there!" aspect of it. Yeah, I'll look for the fastest way to get gold because...why not? It's not like clearing a dungeon the "right way" is particularly difficult or prestigious, just more time-consuming. Plus - as was said above - gold farming really is about the only long term goal in the game anyway because of how things like legendaries are set up.

    Compare that to other games where I was happy to blow tens of thousands of gold and spend hours trying to complete content, because the content itself was the goal. (And no, I never cheesed or exploited a raid boss in WoW, because legitimately overcoming the challenge was the entire point)

    About the only exception to this was the gauntlet, that was probably the first content in GW2 that I felt ok putting time and effort into.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Enkidulgaa View Post
    To be fair, there are some underlying issues that heavily promote this kind of mentality
    Precursors being extremely rare RNG drops that cost hundreds of gold is one matter. Crafting a legendary is the only real longtime goal that the game has and you basically need to buy the precursor off the TP. Therefore many people feel the need to exploit the current most lucrative farming method even if its boring as hell. This could be solved by offering several ways to make money but there is always 1 method that just completely towers above the rest. Cof 1 or deadeye farming cant even compare to any other farm method in the game, its not a matter of making 10-25% less gold per hour, more like 50-75% less
    This is the part that I don't get. I have played the game for roughly 1000 hours. Have been AFK quite a lot so in reality, its probably more like 800 hours. At the moment I have about 200 gold worth of mats in the bank and have bought another 100g worth of stuff for my daughters. So thats about 300g. I have also bought 950g (27000 gems) worth of gems. I also just bought another 2500 gems. To date, I have about 65% map completion, have done 2 story dungeons and level 3 fractals. I do about 4-6 chest events a day (worm, maw, etc, the short ones), my daily and then just explore, do jumping puzzles, living story, some batches of WvW, etc so no farming at all. I didn't farm the bosses in gauntlet or the mobs in pavilion and have only done about 10 invasions. I was luck enough to get a precursor drop which brought me in 315g but the rest is just from normal play. My point is that I think that people overestimate the returns from farming and underestimate the returns from normal play. I even did it the other day. I told a buddy that I made 10g from 3 invasions. Truth be told, I was sitting on about 6.5g and went to 15g. The reality is that it was more like 8.5g. That also included a couple of events in between.

    I can see someone like Lane who has 200 alts battling a bit and needing for farm gold to support the alts but the average player shouldn't be close to running out. If you want a legendary in a month than, yes, but for everyone else, I don't see the point. I would prefer to enjoy what I am doing and take a bit longer rather than farm like mad to get something and not enjoy it. The reason why people mention grind is because it's not fun.

  9. #49
    This is the part that I don't get. I have played the game for roughly 1000 hours. Have been AFK quite a lot so in reality, its probably more like 800 hours. At the moment I have about 200 gold worth of mats in the bank and have bought another 100g worth of stuff for my daughters. So thats about 300g. I have also bought 950g (27000 gems) worth of gems. I also just bought another 2500 gems. To date, I have about 65% map completion, have done 2 story dungeons and level 3 fractals. I do about 4-6 chest events a day (worm, maw, etc, the short ones), my daily and then just explore, do jumping puzzles, living story, some batches of WvW, etc so no farming at all. I didn't farm the bosses in gauntlet or the mobs in pavilion and have only done about 10 invasions. I was luck enough to get a precursor drop which brought me in 315g but the rest is just from normal play. My point is that I think that people overestimate the returns from farming and underestimate the returns from normal play. I even did it the other day. I told a buddy that I made 10g from 3 invasions. Truth be told, I was sitting on about 6.5g and went to 15g. The reality is that it was more like 8.5g. That also included a couple of events in between.
    So wait, did you BUY the gems, or trade gold for them?

    I would find it insanely hard to believe that you just happen to have run across ~1250g without doing anything to intentionally get gold.

    In any case, the precursor alone already puts you in the "Really lucky, not in a position to talk about gold anymore" category. =D

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    So wait, did you BUY the gems, or trade gold for them?

    I would find it insanely hard to believe that you just happen to have run across ~1250g without doing anything to intentionally get gold.

    In any case, the precursor alone already puts you in the "Really lucky, not in a position to talk about gold anymore" category. =D
    I haven't spent a cent on gems. All of my gems have come from gold. I got the precursor about 2-3 weeks back so it was very recent. I run with full MF set always and use MF food. I do the daily every day after I have played. Well finish it off. Things got really tight when the axes came out as I like to buy 8 of these limited sets for my future alts. I had to sell my stock of globs, a lot of my mats and convert my laurels to gold to have enough to buy them all. I used the pre cursor sale to fund my 8 x salvage kits. I just have a hard an fast rule. Salvage anything below 70c, sell greens and blues above that price, bank all mats that I can and sell the rest (after maxing out the refined stuff), salvage rares that are less than 20s on the TP and sell the rest on the TP. The thing is, that there is almost nothing that you need gold for in this game, except repairs, waypoints and stuff from gems. I think I did make a little bit of gold buying exotics and salvaging them for their runes/sigils but thats about it.

    I have never been lucky before. In fact, while playing WOW, I was the unluckiest person in my guild. The first time I managed to get a 4pc was in DS and that was because of LFR. Things would just never drop while I was raiding. I worked it out at one point that I killed who knows how many bosses in DS looking for the agility trinket and only got it when the expansion was pretty much over. If something did drop, I was almost guaranteed to lose the roll. Maybe its my time to catch up a bit

  11. #51
    Brewmaster Lazuli's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zed zebes View Post
    cheesing and skipping is always more appealing to pve players

    That's my point. This isn't an oddity only found in Guild Wars 2. People use exploits in WoW raids. My first 30+ dungeon runs in vanilla WoW was full of skipping and using terrain in unintended ways.

    I actually find the trash fights fun. The combat is fun in general in game. It's always been the bosses that are less interesting. I do agree they need to close loopholes, but that's also fighting against the waves.
    It's the fault of the devs, force players to play the content in the way it was designed, problem solved. Although there should be exceptions, like in GW1 running people to droks skipping mobs on a runner build etc. It's mostly important for dungeons. Loot and time being worth spent clearing trash needs to be worth it for people to want to do it.

    In the world of GW2 where 99% of items you get are garbage vendor trash, of course everyone is going to skip 90% of a dungeon to get to the boss for a chest that has far higher odds of decent loot (but still garbage.)

    I don't mind killing trash in any other game, be it WoW, D2, GW1, all of them rewarded you adequately. GW2 falls very very very short on that and it's a major problem that they will probably never fix because they're, well, retards.
    Last edited by Lazuli; 2013-08-24 at 06:16 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by KungFuFanta
    Oh my god, a company tries to put some lore flavor into the game mechanics, all is lost, whatever shall we do without a whole 1% of crit or haste.

    Quick, call Ukraine and Russia, let them know to put their conflict on standby because Touch of Elune is BULLSHIT!

  12. #52
    They have extensive systems in place to make sure every area you're in is filled right up with players and yes, generally the game is doing fine. However it is horrendous at holding on to players that seek challenge or progression since there is nothing tangible to do after leveling the classes you like. It is the ultimate casual hang out MMO at the moment, which is fine and dandy if that's what you're looking for.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Lazuli View Post
    I don't mind killing trash in any other game, be it WoW, D2, GW1, all of them rewarded you adequately. GW2 falls very very very short on that and it's a major problem that they will probably never fix because they're, well, retards.
    I got my precursor off trash so it's definitely worth killing them. I would like to see them change a few things to make it more worthwhile to kill things though, or just better rewards from events. IMHO, it ultimately boils down to gold not being valuable enough. They need a few good gold sinks to encourage money players to buy gems and they need a few good sinks for mats to encourage more salvaging. What if you needed 50g + 100 copper ore + X to buy a cool back piece/broom/etc. All of a sudden copper becomes more valuable and gold flies out of the market. They have tried it a bit by letting people put smaller stuff in the mystic forge but that just drops the more expensive items price to the lower one. They need new stuff that can act as a sink (skins/mounts (like brooms)/back items/inks).

  14. #54
    Brewmaster Lazuli's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gray_Matter View Post
    I got my precursor off trash so it's definitely worth killing them. I would like to see them change a few things to make it more worthwhile to kill things though, or just better rewards from events. IMHO, it ultimately boils down to gold not being valuable enough. They need a few good gold sinks to encourage money players to buy gems and they need a few good sinks for mats to encourage more salvaging. What if you needed 50g + 100 copper ore + X to buy a cool back piece/broom/etc. All of a sudden copper becomes more valuable and gold flies out of the market. They have tried it a bit by letting people put smaller stuff in the mystic forge but that just drops the more expensive items price to the lower one. They need new stuff that can act as a sink (skins/mounts (like brooms)/back items/inks).
    You got extremely lucky, I've played off and on since beta and have only seen a few exotics drop. Completely diminishes my will to play anymore. I spent 2 months in the game without exotic gear only to find out you can only get what you want on the TP. What a horrible design :/ didn't take long to realize even in beta, every piece of gear you get 90% of the time is for another profession and can't be used.

    I spent 3 hours in WoW and got a shoulder that sold for 6k gold which paid for my alts pandaria flying and much extra. Not very uncommon for that to happen. Found a mini pet in stranglethorn vale last week sold for I think 10k? I haven't seen ONE mini pet drop in GW2 other than the one from karma boxes which can't even be traded. And oh god all that fucking clicking.. ANet truly needs to learn how to design better.

    It shouldn't be that hard to make gold especially considering there aren't many gold sinks in the game. I already have my T3 cultural, my commander tag, it's just boring as FUCK seeing nothing drop all the time.

    In GW1, you always see rares drop that are useable by any profession which can be sold, traded, or salvaged and also counts towards a title of unidentifying them. Purples as well and greens from bosses were not uncommon at all. You didn't spend half your play time at a merchant, either.
    Last edited by Lazuli; 2013-08-24 at 07:14 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by KungFuFanta
    Oh my god, a company tries to put some lore flavor into the game mechanics, all is lost, whatever shall we do without a whole 1% of crit or haste.

    Quick, call Ukraine and Russia, let them know to put their conflict on standby because Touch of Elune is BULLSHIT!

  15. #55
    Legendary! draykorinee's Avatar
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    I have never felt so little need to kill trash, completly unrewarding.

  16. #56
    You get a lot of money from regular play. What actually costs gold in the game is armor/runes/sigil so if you're like me and have 8 lvl 80's who all have exotic gear (atleast 2sets, some up to 4) and think looks matter as much as stats you tend to spend a lot of money.

    Bloodlust sigil + Precision sigil*8, force/night/accuracy/strength sigil * atleast 8, scholar rune*48, ascended backpieces*5, exotic accesories *8*10,...
    Add all that up with cosmetic stuff and I'm sure I've spent quite a lot of gold.

    I've stopped flipping ages ago since I realised that just by doing what I like (dungeons) I make 25-30g a day, which is more than I spend.

    TLDR; Graymatters numbers are high, but depending on when he bought the gems it's entirely possible. Especially since he mentions the exotic/rune flipping (which I made my money with when I was actively flipping).

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Lazuli View Post
    You got extremely lucky, I've played off and on since beta and have only seen a few exotics drop. Completely diminishes my will to play anymore. I spent 2 months in the game without exotic gear only to find out you can only get what you want on the TP. What a horrible design :/ didn't take long to realize even in beta, every piece of gear you get 90% of the time is for another profession and can't be used.

    I spent 3 hours in WoW and got a shoulder that sold for 6k gold which paid for my alts pandaria flying and much extra. Not very uncommon for that to happen. Found a mini pet in stranglethorn vale last week sold for I think 10k? I haven't seen ONE mini pet drop in GW2 other than the one from karma boxes which can't even be traded. And oh god all that fucking clicking.. ANet truly needs to learn how to design better.

    It shouldn't be that hard to make gold especially considering there aren't many gold sinks in the game. I already have my T3 cultural, my commander tag, it's just boring as FUCK seeing nothing drop all the time.

    In GW1, you always see rares drop that are useable by any profession which can be sold, traded, or salvaged and also counts towards a title of unidentifying them. Purples as well and greens from bosses were not uncommon at all. You didn't spend half your play time at a merchant, either.
    I never played GW1. I probably see an exotic drop every third week or so from a chest boss so I am probably lucky there. I still think that the problem with gold in GW2 is not the drops but the value of things. People like me don't need to buy anything. The only thing I need gold for is to exchange for gems. In WOW there are sinks because people are always changing gear. Reforging/enchanting/gemming are all done on a regular basis. This doesn't happen in GW2 so it really don't matter if you get a really nice rare/exotic every day because everyone who plays will get the same and it won't take more than a couple of weeks for the market to be saturated and the price to drop to vendor pricing. So the problem is not the loot level, it's what people can do with that loot.

    The only way to change this is to make sinks in game for common items and reasons for people to change or augment gear or something that people really want. I can craft an exotic for next to nothing so any exotic drops you get are either worth the price of the rune/sigil or at the most 70s. There is a very small chance that you get an exotic worth something but that happens once in a blue moon.

    Changing the value of stats might make people switch to something other than zerk or bumping the max level or making a mini legendary that costs about a quarter/eighth of what the legendary costs but uses lots of other lesser mats. It could even have it's own, more common, precursor.

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    To be fair, there's really nothing in GW2 worth doing for the "because it's there!" aspect of it. Yeah, I'll look for the fastest way to get gold because...why not? It's not like clearing a dungeon the "right way" is particularly difficult or prestigious, just more time-consuming. Plus - as was said above - gold farming really is about the only long term goal in the game anyway because of how things like legendaries are set up.

    Compare that to other games where I was happy to blow tens of thousands of gold and spend hours trying to complete content, because the content itself was the goal. (And no, I never cheesed or exploited a raid boss in WoW, because legitimately overcoming the challenge was the entire point)

    About the only exception to this was the gauntlet, that was probably the first content in GW2 that I felt ok putting time and effort into.
    You speak for yourself. I play to see the content. The general gameplay, combat, and world are fun. The AC redesign is fun, but people still cheese it.

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Lazuli View Post
    You got extremely lucky, I've played off and on since beta and have only seen a few exotics drop. Completely diminishes my will to play anymore. I spent 2 months in the game without exotic gear only to find out you can only get what you want on the TP.
    methodology has changed since release, of course, but there's multiple ways of getting exotics. I've had bouts of good luck and bad, obviously, with one day in Southsun netting me 5 exotics. Rares tossed into the Forge have resulted in plenty of exotics as well. In addition, of course, there's crafting. You can buy them on the TP as well, or for karma from the temple events. Or WvWvW vendors...

    No matter how you play, you can get exotics. If anything, I'd lean towards exotics being "standard" rather than exotic.

  20. #60
    I'v e had a precursor drop. Unfortunately, it was the spear precursor, so not really of interest or of much worth.

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