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  1. #21
    Moderator Nobleshield's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tarazet View Post
    Agreed, Guardians may be the real surprise in this tier. We were already taking less damage than any other tank class on average; now we're getting a stam buff and a substantial amount of self-healing added to our toolkit to offset our weaknesses. Of course, it doesn't completely solve the fact that our only method of dealing with spike is healing it back afterwards.
    I know my bear co-tank was stating that he's currently at like 74% DR from his armor, and with the stam buff that seems to be going to be even better next tier, plus something about one of the talents being revised means that he's immortal (IDK, don't know much about bears). With his 65% or so crit he's consistently top 3 DPS on every fight.
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  2. #22

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Deja Thoris View Post
    So set them right with reasoned logic. Don't just post a stupid one liner. It is a discussion forum afterall.
    That one liner summed up the changes to bear tanks in 5.4, what more is there to say? instead of complaining about my one liner with your one liner, try actually adding something of value to the discussion, as it is a discussion forum afterall.

  4. #24
    It the exact same as last patch:

    Monk/Paladin>Warrior>Druid>DK

    The only difference is Monk and paladin are not as far ahead as before and there is a bigger gap between Warriors and Druids.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Gliff View Post
    It the exact same as last patch:

    Monk/Paladin>Warrior>Druid>DK

    The only difference is Monk and paladin are not as far ahead as before and there is a bigger gap between Warriors and Druids.
    DK's were the worst tank? I don't see how, if anything they should be above warr/druid. However blood dks are seeing some buffs coming this patch too so they all might be pretty even. DPS will increase with the addition of riposte, DRW no longer has rp cost. I think all the tanks below pally/monk will be relatively even minus the specialties they bring to raids. Warrs looking good tho

  6. #26
    Monks and Paladins are looking pretty solid just like this patch.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by alfaqup View Post
    DK's were the worst tank? I don't see how, if anything they should be above warr/druid. However blood dks are seeing some buffs coming this patch too so they all might be pretty even. DPS will increase with the addition of riposte, DRW no longer has rp cost. I think all the tanks below pally/monk will be relatively even minus the specialties they bring to raids. Warrs looking good tho
    Yes warriors are easily above Druids and DKs this patch and next patch they will be even further ahead.

    Warriors damage is going to be going up by an insane amount next patch and they still have the best raid CDs aswell as still being better defensively the DKs and Druids.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Deja Thoris View Post
    So set them right with reasoned logic. Don't just post a stupid one liner. It is a discussion forum afterall.
    Druids got Stamina buff so that will help them alot. But most of all with the new 2piece and the CDR trinket the time you can keep up SD goes up from 42 seconds to over 2 min, and alot of new debuffs are applied on hit.

    But the strongest change is barkskin only having 30 seconds cd now with the cdr trinket its about 22seconds with 12 seconds uptime on a 20% dmg reduction plus the high armor while barkskin is up they will be about the same physical dmg reduction as pala with SotR give or take 5%.

    Dmg wise cant say dont know the number due to the huge LMG and cloak nerfs. during progress you will likely use the tankmeta now on almost all classes. And with the nerf to SS from pala not scaling with over 100% AP, sure the EF change is nice but absorb are almost better everytime. All tanks will be about the same.

    And Warriors got alot of buffs, the changes to Enrage are really awesome you will gain alot more rage and have higher uptime on the 6% dmg increase. And with riposte giving prots crit that will scale very good.

    DKs I still think riposte will be very crapy for DKs, sure a bit of dps but considering warriors get rage and enrage uptime from riposte and are more likely to have higher parry dodge stats. DKs should have gained haste from it. And I see alot of DK going for haste/mastery items. Which gives them alot more dps and defensive stuff than going for parry dodge after mastery

    The different between Tanks will be very very small considering the whole package all tank are more than viable at tanking all bosses in SoO. Not beeing able to cheese debuffs with HoP, you will have to have 2 tanks on every encounter and it will not matter which ones you take. It will only matter if you have good player or not, a good warrior will be as good as a good pala.
    Last edited by Viromand; 2013-08-23 at 10:33 AM.

  9. #29
    It doesnt matter if SD has a 100% uptime with the 2-set and 30 second CD. Druids will never be the easiest tanks to heal because of the nature of avoidance. If they had kept tank debuff abilities (like sundering blow on Nazgrim) avoidable then Guardians would be looking very good next patch. But they changed those abilities BACK to unavoidable so Druids are once again on the level of DKs defensively.

    You may take lower damage or even the least damage overall but a tank not based on avoidance will always be easier to heal then avoidance tanks or tanks that rely on self healing (DKs).

    Having said that, I honestly think all 5 tanks are viable in heroic raiding. Monks and Paladins will be the best this whole expansion. they are designed better then the other 3 tanks. Lets face facts. Paladins have gotten nothing but nerfs this patch and they are still a top 2 tank.

  10. #30
    This is in terms of:
    1) Survival
    2) Damage smoothing/ease of healing
    3) DPS contribution
    4) Raid CDs

    Monk > Pal > War >> Druid >>> DK

    Sure, Monks have poorer Raid CD's than Warrior on demand, but raidwide shields are passive and always beneficial. Pal's take a hit in terms of DPS output, but still strong in all other categories. Warriors got a big boost in terms of DPS output, have super strong raid CDs and with the new scaling of Riposte, now have good stat allocation options. Druids are looking strong in terms of DPS output still, as well as overall survival versus sustained physical (and now magic, thanks to %stam buff), but still being avoidance/reactive-heal based is hurting their ranking (IMO). DKs... well, someone has to be last; no real raid CD (AMZ change is nice, but still behind), spiky by nature, and reliant on reactive healing without a proper V-scaling AM system.

    As Gliff mentioned, avoidance means jack if the specials/nukes/debuffs are unavoidable. Along that same vein, avoidance boasting the highest TDR is great on paper, but in practice with real numbers, spikes can and do happen, no matter how much you pray to RNJesus. Better to have a reliable way of dealing with them (ShotR, Stagger, SBarr) than hoping to avoid them.

    Still, none of them are flat out BAD, just some are better than others. You CAN use a DK, and a well played one will be as good or better than an average or poor monk/paladin. Which is how it should be.
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  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Gliff View Post
    It doesnt matter if SD has a 100% uptime with the 2-set and 30 second CD. Druids will never be the easiest tanks to heal because of the nature of avoidance. If they had kept tank debuff abilities (like sundering blow on Nazgrim) avoidable then Guardians would be looking very good next patch. But they changed those abilities BACK to unavoidable so Druids are once again on the level of DKs defensively.

    You may take lower damage or even the least damage overall but a tank not based on avoidance will always be easier to heal then avoidance tanks or tanks that rely on self healing (DKs).

    Having said that, I honestly think all 5 tanks are viable in heroic raiding. Monks and Paladins will be the best this whole expansion. they are designed better then the other 3 tanks. Lets face facts. Paladins have gotten nothing but nerfs this patch and they are still a top 2 tank.
    They didnt change all the abilities back, and thats why the lowered the cd of barkskin. So now we have high selfheal, high avoidance with SD and TnC, and with the barkskin changes we ahve high mitigation on physical with the high armor and barkskin now.

    Im not talking about avoidance on autoattacks but big hits, cause no tank has problems with normal hits. Of course druid is the best tank when it comes to normal hits, cause you either dodge or block it with TnC, and even if you take one so what with high armor and a low rage FR your back to full again.

    When it comes to unavoidable hits, when comparing to warrior for example. Both have a non special AM with Sblock and SD. Still next patch druid will have almost the same Hp as warriors maybe even more considering which trinkets you take but while gemming for crit, more passive mitigation due to armor and barkskins low cd now.

    So the warrior the warrior will take about the same dmg on a special with Sbar up than a druid with barkskin, plus the druid can heal himself back to full with 1 FR after a huge hit.

    Monks will still be best tanks followed by palas and druids than warrior beeing right behind that and after that DK.

  12. #32
    Mechagnome
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    You know what this thread is REALLY saying? ALL tanks are looking pretty good next patch. And that, is truly a wonderful thing. That said I'd better get to work knocking the rust off of my old warrior.
    Naftc, "Hunters are the cheapest class in game and when played right are more deadly than a train plowing through a field of bunnies covered in napalm"

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Gliff View Post
    It doesnt matter if SD has a 100% uptime with the 2-set and 30 second CD. Druids will never be the easiest tanks to heal because of the nature of avoidance. If they had kept tank debuff abilities (like sundering blow on Nazgrim) avoidable then Guardians would be looking very good next patch. But they changed those abilities BACK to unavoidable so Druids are once again on the level of DKs defensively.
    Try telling my healers that I'm difficult to heal. A well-played Guardian will be the most reliable tank you ever have. Healing a Haste-build Paladin is scary as hell, because it's impossible to tell when they need a little extra help to survive.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Tarazet View Post
    Try telling my healers that I'm difficult to heal. A well-played Guardian will be the most reliable tank you ever have.
    Wat?

    Healing a Haste-build Paladin is scary as hell, because it's impossible to tell when they need a little extra help to survive.
    Srsly...WAT?

    By definition, avoidance (guardian's primary AM) is NOT reliable. That's just the nature of the game mechanics. Not to mention it falls short on anything that can't be avoided (like TP/DC, Talon Rake, DoTs/Bleeds, etc). And if you/your healers are struggling to keep up a prot paladin, then it's very likely that one or both parties are doing things very, very wrong.

    And while I may be a bit biased and/or more familiar about paladin mechanics than druids, I cannot ever see any competent healer struggling with a paladin tank that knows what it's doing. Maybe you ARE easy to heal, which is great, and quite understandable given your progress. But please don't try and use anecdotal evidence as facts. Druids are pretty strong, getting some buffs, and admittedly under the radar of most people given that this expansion has really highlighted the power of Monk and Pala tanks.

    But the reason that Monk and Pal tanks are doing so well is precisely because their AM isn't based on RNG. AKA, reliable.
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
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  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Tarazet View Post
    Try telling my healers that I'm difficult to heal. A well-played Guardian will be the most reliable tank you ever have. Healing a Haste-build Paladin is scary as hell, because it's impossible to tell when they need a little extra help to survive.
    I dont even know what you are on about. Have you played a paladin ever?
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  16. #36
    Blood Dk/Prot Pally combo has been the most stable for us on the PTR for all raid testing. They just don't need much healing and they put out alot of damage.

    People saying Blood DK's aren't any good either:
    a.) Have a crappy Blood Tank
    b.) Don't know what they're talking about, and need to put down the crack pipe.
    c.) The player behind the Blood DK is clueless to how they play, thus see (a.)

    I say this cause for the most part, we either use 2x Blood DKs (now Blood DK/Brewmaster) or Blood DK/Prot Pally - and those 2 setups have been insanely OP'd for our comp. Since my OT went Brewmaster, I'm even more concerned since I see him drop more frequently.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    But the reason that Monk and Pal tanks are doing so well is precisely because their AM isn't based on RNG. AKA, reliable.
    Don't forget - Blood DK's AM is baked into our primary attack, and once we get a high blood shield rolling, we practically take zero damage, and we rock on heavy magic fights too.
    Last edited by Grollix; 2013-08-23 at 07:19 PM.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Grollix View Post
    Blood Dk/Prot Pally combo has been the most stable for us on the PTR for all raid testing. They just don't need much healing and they put out alot of damage.

    People saying Blood DK's aren't any good either:
    a.) Have a crappy Blood Tank
    b.) Don't know what they're talking about, and need to put down the crack pipe.
    c.) The player behind the Blood DK is clueless to how they play, thus see (a.)

    I say this cause for the most part, we either use 2x Blood DKs (now Blood DK/Brewmaster) or Blood DK/Prot Pally - and those 2 setups have been insanely OP'd for our comp. Since my OT went Brewmaster, I'm even more concerned since I see him drop more frequently.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Don't forget - Blood DK's AM is baked into our primary attack, and once we get a high blood shield rolling, we practically take zero damage, and we rock on heavy magic fights too.
    Right, my main alt is a BDK (though it's been shelved for a BrM recently), so I have every desire to see them succeed. The issue isn't so much with their AM being bad, but with the fact that they have no V-scaling. Their AM system rotates around damage taken, which is related to but entirely separate from V. This may actually pan out to be BETTER in t16, given the nerfs to V and the lower overall levels we are seeing on PTR WRT dmg taken (Galakras, for example), but currently they are hamstrung by the fact that they cannot use/abuse V like other tanks to prop up their AM.

    The other part of their AM does greatly resemble how a Guardian plays, being that DS is/should be used to retroactively heal up after a large attack. While being self-sufficient is a great thing, it does require you to eat the hit first in order to re-heal it. Blood shield is great at taking the edge off of large attacks, and can effectively raise your EH to ~2mil when doing tank swaps, etc. However, it also gets ticked away by bleeds, adds, and melee/other small attacks, meaning that it's not entirely reliable 100% of the time. Case in point: RaDen.

    Again, DK isn't BAD, but someone has to be last, and given their lack of any real raid CD, reliance on reactive healing, high damage taken, and lack of V scaling, most folks put them in that position. Can you clear content with a DK? Yes, of course. Can you clear it with any tank? Again, yes. It's just usually easier to do it with a monk/pal than a DK.
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    If it was that easy don't you think we would have figured that out? (Source)
    20k and counting...

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    Right, my main alt is a BDK (though it's been shelved for a BrM recently), so I have every desire to see them succeed. The issue isn't so much with their AM being bad, but with the fact that they have no V-scaling. Their AM system rotates around damage taken, which is related to but entirely separate from V. This may actually pan out to be BETTER in t16, given the nerfs to V and the lower overall levels we are seeing on PTR WRT dmg taken (Galakras, for example), but currently they are hamstrung by the fact that they cannot use/abuse V like other tanks to prop up their AM.

    The other part of their AM does greatly resemble how a Guardian plays, being that DS is/should be used to retroactively heal up after a large attack. While being self-sufficient is a great thing, it does require you to eat the hit first in order to re-heal it. Blood shield is great at taking the edge off of large attacks, and can effectively raise your EH to ~2mil when doing tank swaps, etc. However, it also gets ticked away by bleeds, adds, and melee/other small attacks, meaning that it's not entirely reliable 100% of the time. Case in point: RaDen.

    Again, DK isn't BAD, but someone has to be last, and given their lack of any real raid CD, reliance on reactive healing, high damage taken, and lack of V scaling, most folks put them in that position. Can you clear content with a DK? Yes, of course. Can you clear it with any tank? Again, yes. It's just usually easier to do it with a monk/pal than a DK.
    It truly comes down to the player at the end of the day that's piloting the tank - I am willing to agree any tank can clear the content. Reason I place Blood DK as my number 1 is because we have so many cheat death abilities (Purgatory if planned, Ghoul Sac + Vampiric Blood = Lay on Hands every 2 minutes). Also we can get away with stam stacking and still kick ass (did it for Heroic Tortos - had somewhere in the neighborhood of like 1.2million HP+, and once we started the fight, the Crystal Shell never fell off cause of it's scaling with HP, on top of rolling with an insanely high 1mill bloodshield.

    At the end of the day for me though, I'm more comfortable with 2x Blood DK or Prot Pally/Blood DK than any other setup. Nothing worse than having your BrewM OT drop the moment they taunt the boss off you cause well, RNG.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Tarazet View Post
    Try telling my healers that I'm difficult to heal. A well-played Guardian will be the most reliable tank you ever have. Healing a Haste-build Paladin is scary as hell, because it's impossible to tell when they need a little extra help to survive.
    I gather that you have never played a Haste-build prot paladin OR you have no idea how to play them correctly.

    My 520 ilvl Prot paladin takes less damage and smoother damage then my 552 ilvl Prot warrior on any fight with a predictable hard physical hit (Horridon, Tottos).

    Anyone arguing that avoidance based tanks are easier to heal the warrior and paladins need to get their heads checked. Its not opinion, it's fact that block tanks have smoother damage intake.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Grollix View Post
    At the end of the day for me though, I'm more comfortable with 2x Blood DK or Prot Pally/Blood DK than any other setup. Nothing worse than having your BrewM OT drop the moment they taunt the boss off you cause well, RNG.
    Not arguing your first point (as it's both accurate and the same one that I'm making), but touching on this:

    If your BrM taunts off of you and dies, that's a serious lapse in skill and in no way related to the class or RNG. That's an EBKAC error, as he should 1) have shuffle rolling for plenty of time, 2) have guard up or available, and 3) have a full stack of EB. Any one of those is enough to recover from even the worst spike assuming your healers are awake. BrM taunt swaps are about the safest you can get (tied with a full blood shield stacked DK).
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    If it was that easy don't you think we would have figured that out? (Source)
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