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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Grollix View Post
    Blood Dk/Prot Pally combo has been the most stable for us on the PTR for all raid testing. They just don't need much healing and they put out alot of damage.

    People saying Blood DK's aren't any good either:
    a.) Have a crappy Blood Tank
    b.) Don't know what they're talking about, and need to put down the crack pipe.
    c.) The player behind the Blood DK is clueless to how they play, thus see (a.)

    I say this cause for the most part, we either use 2x Blood DKs (now Blood DK/Brewmaster) or Blood DK/Prot Pally - and those 2 setups have been insanely OP'd for our comp. Since my OT went Brewmaster, I'm even more concerned since I see him drop more frequently.

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    Don't forget - Blood DK's AM is baked into our primary attack, and once we get a high blood shield rolling, we practically take zero damage, and we rock on heavy magic fights too.
    They are so OP that they are were incapable of tanking 2 bosses on heroic progression (Gara'jal and Ra-den).

    Noone is saying "Dk's aren't any good". They are just the least desirable right now. All tanks are good enough to tank heroic progression but if I had to choose out of the 5 tanks Druids and DKs would be the last 2 but Dks would EASILY be last.

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Spacebot View Post
    Monks, Paladins & Warriors are looking strong. Don't know about druids or DKs

    and by really strong I mean Paladins and monks both got nerfed but are still more than okay.
    DK's, Hunter's, Warlocks are still the classes in the game that make the MMORPG a single-player RPG.

    And Paladin's have been outrageously powerful throughout this entire expansion, even when leveling.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Gliff View Post
    They are so OP that they are were incapable of tanking 2 bosses on heroic progression (Gara'jal and Ra-den).

    Noone is saying "Dk's aren't any good". They are just the least desirable right now. All tanks are good enough to tank heroic progression but if I had to choose out of the 5 tanks Druids and DKs would be the last 2 but Dks would EASILY be last.
    We killed Heroic Garajal with 2x Blood DK's with zero issues.

    And placing DK's last, you must have had some really bad experiences with Blood Tanks.

    But to each their own...

  4. #44
    You really can't make an argument based on anecdotal evidence. Sure, if a player at [insert class] is really good, then he'll make that class shine and seem better than it is. Or vice versa. Being able to kill a boss with a certain setup is also somewhat pointless without knowing the progression level, the rest of the raid, etc. What you can do is look at general evidence. For example, it's been over four months since Ra-den's been first killed. You have hundreds of paladins and monks who have solo tanked it. Dozens of druids and warriors who have as well. After a cursory look, I haven't found one DK who has. That is evidence.

    You could also make the argument that tank deaths are usually related to high burst damage abilities - triple puncture, talon rake, snapping bite, decapitate, etc. It's extremely rare that a tank just dies from pure melee swings. And DKs + druids are the weakest at those attacks because their AM does not prevent damage.

    Finally, you can look at dps, healing, and raid utility. Again, dks and druids are both overall low on those counts. DK has great utility but fairly unimpressive dps or raid healing. Druid has great dps but lacks healing and utility. Warriors have great utility as well but low healing and dps. Paladins are superb at all 3, monks are beast at dps and healing.

    So the weakest tanks are going to be the ones that die easily and bring the least to the table in terms of numbers and utility. Dks and druids fit that bill. In 5.3, druids are easily the worst of all tanks, but they did get some buffs this upcoming patch so who knows, maybe they'll take over the second worst spot and leave Dks behind.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Grollix View Post
    We killed Heroic Garajal with 2x Blood DK's with zero issues.

    And placing DK's last, you must have had some really bad experiences with Blood Tanks.

    But to each their own...
    10 or 25 and how long after the expansion hit?

    Doing it on 10 man with a 495 ilvl is not what I am talking about...

  6. #46
    The Lightbringer SurrealNight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grollix View Post
    Since my OT went Brewmaster, I'm even more concerned since I see him drop more frequently.
    I'd be willing to bet he stacks crit and possibly isn't even playing correctly (impossible to say without logs) as most 10m BrM are gearing for DPS not survival.

    In current gear I can forge so I have 95% physical damage mitigation during trinket procs with a baseline of 63%. Hard to beat that when you don't have to worry about things like gaps between Death Strikes.

    The four elements, like man alone, are weak. But together they form the strong fifth element: Boron.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Gliff View Post
    10 or 25 and how long after the expansion hit?

    Doing it on 10 man with a 495 ilvl is not what I am talking about...
    Well if we're only talking in the realm of 25man then who knows - I quit the 25man game in Cata due to collapsed guilds but also prefer the individual responsibility of 10man + the tight nit community/relationships 10man bring.

    Also did it during content for cutting edge.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SurrealNight View Post
    I'd be willing to bet he stacks crit and possibly isn't even playing correctly (impossible to say without logs) as most 10m BrM are gearing for DPS not survival.

    In current gear I can forge so I have 95% physical damage mitigation during trinket procs with a baseline of 63%. Hard to beat that when you don't have to worry about things like gaps between Death Strikes.
    What build would you suggest for our BrewM then? I think he is hell bent on pure crit stacking.

  8. #48
    The Lightbringer SurrealNight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grollix View Post
    What build would you suggest for our BrewM then? I think he is hell bent on pure crit stacking.
    Well if he is rocking the DPS meters and not dying (assuming he is playing the spec right) then I suppose no reason to change. I was just pointing out that your BrM is spiky because of choice most likely not because the class has to be that way.

    Crit: Massive DPS boost but incorrectly thought of as a "survival" stat due to it increasing Elusive Brew stacks. In reality it is a 2% crit = 0.9% average dodge conversion.
    Mastery: No gain in DPS but best EH and damage smoothing stat. 960 rating = 1% physical damage reduction.

    Using Rune of Re-origination I can proc 30k worth of crit (98% crit change) or mastery (95% physical damage reduction). I run 25m so plan to stack mastery for T16 until I see tank damage isn't much of a threat.

    Again BrM are so strong because we have a baseline reduction to all physical damage intake + controlled burst of avoidance that rivals bears AM. So basically there is no boss mechanic we will ever be weak against because doing so means it would just wreck other tank classes even worse. Hence everyone pulling out their pocket BrM's for Ra-Den and in general shunning DK's for similar fights (including Gara during progression).

    The four elements, like man alone, are weak. But together they form the strong fifth element: Boron.

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Grollix View Post
    Well if we're only talking in the realm of 25man then who knows - I quit the 25man game in Cata due to collapsed guilds but also prefer the individual responsibility of 10man + the tight nit community/relationships 10man bring.

    Also did it during content for cutting edge.

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    What build would you suggest for our BrewM then? I think he is hell bent on pure crit stacking.
    It doesnt matter if it is 10 or 25. During the same patch is not what i am talking about. I am talking about within the first month of the expansion being out. Doing it at ilvl 490+ does not have any baring on what i am talking about.

    DKs were basically unbringable for Gara'jal. Especially the 25 man guild that had to 4 heal and the 10 mans that had to 2 heal without a Disc priest.

  10. #50
    Mechagnome
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    Monk, Lots of shields and damage reduction/AoE
    Paladin, High damage, High healing, can cheese a lot of mechanics with BoP/shield
    After that
    Bear, High staim and decent AoE
    DK, A lot of absorbs and high staim, Very good for spell based damage, AMS can cheese a lot of mechanics
    Warrior, Erm low avoidance, average health and blocks

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by SurrealNight View Post
    Well if he is rocking the DPS meters and not dying (assuming he is playing the spec right) then I suppose no reason to change. I was just pointing out that your BrM is spiky because of choice most likely not because the class has to be that way.

    Crit: Massive DPS boost but incorrectly thought of as a "survival" stat due to it increasing Elusive Brew stacks. In reality it is a 2% crit = 0.9% average dodge conversion.
    Mastery: No gain in DPS but best EH and damage smoothing stat. 960 rating = 1% physical damage reduction.

    Using Rune of Re-origination I can proc 30k worth of crit (98% crit change) or mastery (95% physical damage reduction). I run 25m so plan to stack mastery for T16 until I see tank damage isn't much of a threat.

    Again BrM are so strong because we have a baseline reduction to all physical damage intake + controlled burst of avoidance that rivals bears AM. So basically there is no boss mechanic we will ever be weak against because doing so means it would just wreck other tank classes even worse. Hence everyone pulling out their pocket BrM's for Ra-Den and in general shunning DK's for similar fights (including Gara during progression).
    I'll have/make him look at this - was my feeling all along but some peeps just don't listen :P

    Quote Originally Posted by Gliff View Post
    It doesnt matter if it is 10 or 25. During the same patch is not what i am talking about. I am talking about within the first month of the expansion being out. Doing it at ilvl 490+ does not have any baring on what i am talking about.

    DKs were basically unbringable for Gara'jal. Especially the 25 man guild that had to 4 heal and the 10 mans that had to 2 heal without a Disc priest.
    Think I and my OT were around 480-85 maybe considering we had a very late start into t14 due to new guild forming, but also both of us lacked any luck getting new gear so we had to play creatively, namely spamming major-glyphed Death Coils to one another, adding another layer of mass-absorbs.
    Last edited by Grollix; 2013-08-23 at 08:46 PM.

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Tsuna View Post
    You know what this thread is REALLY saying? ALL tanks are looking pretty good next patch. And that, is truly a wonderful thing. That said I'd better get to work knocking the rust off of my old warrior.
    Hehe. Same thought i had. Still think dks is in a bit of a weak spot in casual raids that can't pick which class tank they want for each boss they take.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tarazet View Post
    Try telling my healers that I'm difficult to heal. A well-played Guardian will be the most reliable tank you ever have. Healing a Haste-build Paladin is scary as hell, because it's impossible to tell when they need a little extra help to survive.
    A well played guardian being easier to heal than a completely failing hastebuild prot paladin? What is this? I thought paladins was suposed to be OP regardless how badly they played.
    Isn't anything scary about healing a hastebuild prot paladin unless they suck :P
    Everyone has so much to say
    They talk talk talk their lives away

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Gliff View Post
    It doesnt matter if it is 10 or 25.
    It matters a lot whether it's 10 or 25. The DK model is extremely volatile due to the differences in spike damage, and the simple damage output difference can make or break the class.

    On topic, DKs will be completely unviable for Malkorok this tier (and probably Paragons as well, or rather, other tanks trivialize some Paragons' mechanics). That's enough for me to believe they will be the worst tanks overall, no question, however I'm not touching the subject of survivability without having precise numbers. DPS-wise, dunno, depends on the impact of the vengeance change. Still think we're gonna be a good 10% to 20% behind with 25H levels of vengeance, but whatever, expecting a buff soonish™.

  14. #54
    From the looks of it, all but DKs are going to be powerhouses to progression tiered (and skilled) tanks. All their strength shave already been cited, but 5.4 covers their weaknesses quite well.

    Monks, high healing, high damage, decent utility. Weakness = multiple adds, dodge RNG. Speaking purely survivable, a BrM is close to unkillable if they go full mastery, however most BrM's will push as much crit as the fight allows without mastery dipping to a deadly level. GotOx is a VERY underrepresented ability, however it will become more prevalent seeing how much our stats will get inflated, and the surge in vengeance. Due to the RNG nature, Monks will still be the tank requiring most player focus on deadly add packs.

    Paladins, lots of weird nerfs, some strong buffs. Dno what to say, they didn't have many weaknesses to start with other than being a bit prone to magical damage, but with their plethora of CDs (both personal and for the raid), their spot in the tank rankings is quite secure. They were quite perfect going into ToT, and the core mechanics havent changed much (if at all).

    Warriors, insane OT utility, basic block tank (great for adds). Their weakness was their damage, their survivability was good and so was their ability to take care of spikes proactively, they got the "dmg" fix so they are standing tall for 5.4.

    Druids, spikiest tank, but very well scaling DPS, a bit lacking on the healing. The utility of the spec has gone up quite a bit, if HotW wasn't suited for a perfect fight, they lost a bulk of their utility, with the DoC changes, they can sacrifice their damage/threat (lol) for very high amounts of healing either to themself of the raid. Their spikiness has been lessed somewhat, they have much higher EH now, im quite sure most bears can reach their armor cap AND their crit cap in SoO gear. Mechanic wise, they are going to be complete. Their reliance on the CD reduc trinket is a bit worrying (RoRo for windwalkers..) but it will make them very strong nonetheless. SD strengthens their already powerful white attack mitigation, so it being extended isn't that huge. However, they've been given a proactive mitigation ability with Barkskin's CD reduc, so its a good bandaid as that was the weakest part to Druids. Druids however, do not suffer from the RNG weakness that Monks do whilst tanking multiple adds (at least not in presumed SoO gear), with close to 90% dodge all the time, and such high armor, and such high rage generation, RNG streaks for white attacks will have a much lower effect on them than Monks.

    DKs, they got riposte just like warriors, it doesnt fit into the core mechanics as well but its a slight incentive to go for offensive stats. The biggest problem is that their survivablility is still not based on Vengeance (not nearly as much as the other tanks). Their damage is still heavily reliant on their Weapon. DKs have the biggest opportunity cost in terms of DPS vs Survivability since they are two completely unconnected stats. That said a DK's surviability scales well into the last tier, so I dont see a Raden like situation coming again. Their damage however, is still a big issue.

  15. #55
    Minor quibble, but monks and druids have comparative dodge rates with AM. Monks have about 45% passive avoidance + 30% from elusive brew, druids have 25% passive avoidance + 45% from savage defense. SD is generally up more than EB so it more or less evens out now, but in 5.4 druids will probably have ~4-5% higher overall avoidance from their 2p

  16. #56
    The Lightbringer SurrealNight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mionelol View Post
    On topic, DKs will be completely unviable for Malkorok this tier (and probably Paragons as well, or rather, other tanks trivialize some Paragons' mechanics).
    I never really thought about that mechanic how do DK's handle H Tortos right now? Do they ignore getting shells in favor of building non-min blood shields or something?

    Shelving my DK was a bitter sweet decision but seeing as they continuously have fights that screw them over each tier makes me not regret the decision. Course choose Brewmaster instead so my world is constantly filled with awesome but that is beside the point.

    The four elements, like man alone, are weak. But together they form the strong fifth element: Boron.

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Mionelol View Post
    It matters a lot whether it's 10 or 25. The DK model is extremely volatile due to the differences in spike damage, and the simple damage output difference can make or break the class.

    On topic, DKs will be completely unviable for Malkorok this tier (and probably Paragons as well, or rather, other tanks trivialize some Paragons' mechanics). That's enough for me to believe they will be the worst tanks overall, no question, however I'm not touching the subject of survivability without having precise numbers. DPS-wise, dunno, depends on the impact of the vengeance change. Still think we're gonna be a good 10% to 20% behind with 25H levels of vengeance, but whatever, expecting a buff soonish™.
    I'm not exactly sure how the shield thing works on Malkorok so I have no idea why DKs will be bad. Care to fill me in?

    Thok P1 (just the normal 50% damage taken debuff) will also be impossible for DKs to tank without rolling large CDs the whole phase. Even with full Shield Barriers I would get gibbed if I didnt have a CD pupped for the breath. It's physical damage so Druids may be fine with their armor and high health. Dks are gonna be fucked though.

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by kaiadam View Post
    Dozens of druids and warriors who have as well. After a cursory look, I haven't found one DK who has. That is evidence.
    Tick, my tanking colleague at Flawless, did it the week I was on vacation. It's a pain in the ass but doable.
    Also I don' really get why you all of you are saying that Blood DK's are terribly weak, Tick has no problem at all at tanking any encounter so far, neither in ToT nor in SoO.

  19. #59
    i play beartanks for + 8 year and never had problems with them..there strong played well and can take a lot spike damage...btw our healers love beartanks..we progressed ToT with 2 bears and never had problems..a class may seems so OP it can be..bad played they suck balls and vice versa..learn your class and play it like suposed
    Last edited by shagun; 2013-09-12 at 04:38 PM.

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