So, Army of the Dead is a channeling ability.

[Sebsmash]

Why? I don't understand why it's still a channeled ability. I find it pretty much useless, unless on a pull. If I sit there to cast it, it's a dps loss. If I try and use it in pvp, instant interrupt. Why is it still channeled? And if the reason is it's a powerful ability, then why isn't Stampede channeled? I just think it's a damn shame.

[Deleted]

Why? I don't understand why it's still a channeled ability. I find it pretty much useless, unless on a pull. If I sit there to cast it, it's a dps loss. If I try and use it in pvp, instant interrupt. Why is it still channeled? And if the reason is it's a powerful ability, then why isn't Stampede channeled? I just think it's a damn shame.

Tanks use it as a defensive cooldown. Combined with DRW, it can be a 50%+ damage reduction, which is very handy.

I agree that as a dps, the channeling thing is more annoying that anything though, but it shouldn't be removed. It should be a choice, made through the use of a glyph perhaps, or maybe completely baseline for dps specs, but not for blood.

[Deleted]

Why? I don't understand why it's still a channeled ability. I find it pretty much useless, unless on a pull. If I sit there to cast it, it's a dps loss. If I try and use it in pvp, instant interrupt. Why is it still channeled? And if the reason is it's a powerful ability, then why isn't Stampede channeled? I just think it's a damn shame.

Your raid leader/tank should be doing a countdown to the pull... at least 5-7 seconds. At this time you pop army and all your ghouls should have crawled their way out of the ground by the time you attack the boss.

[Ygorl]

It's not a DPS loss, even mid-fight. The army does a couple million damage. If you can do better than that with three runes in four seconds, well, I'm impressed. It's also a defensive cooldown that reduces more damage than Icebound Fortitude.

[Raugnaut]

Its not actually a dps loss. Of course, for max dps potential, you SHOULD pop it prepull, and on most fights, thats once per fight.

[Sebsmash]

Your raid leader/tank should be doing a countdown to the pull... at least 5-7 seconds. At this time you pop army and all your ghouls should have crawled their way out of the ground by the time you attack the boss.

I know when to use it BEFORE a pull, that's the only time as a dps besides maybe a transition phase where you can't dps the boss to channel the ability. I think the biggest problem is, without such a transition phase you can't without losing dps. Also, in pvp when can you ever channel something? It just doesn't work. I think it needs a rework for it's summoning mechanic or at least a glyph you can put on to make it instant cast and have the duration cut in half, or some other penalty so you can actually use it, other than before a pull, during a boss immune transition phase. I just realized after pvping a great deal that I can't use it, and if I do I'll get nuked/interrupted before I get 2-3 ghouls out.

It's just all bad in it's current form.

Mage Clones - Instant
Shaman Elementals - Instant
Paladin Angel - Instant
Hunter Stampede - Instant
Warlock Infernal/Doomguard - Instant
Druid Treants - Instant

Granted, we have a single Ghoul we can raise, for 1 minutes. But how effective is it anyway? Not nearly as those that I mentioned.

/End rant.

[Cryopathy]

I know when to use it BEFORE a pull, that's the only time as a dps besides maybe a transition phase where you can't dps the boss to channel the ability. I think the biggest problem is, without such a transition phase you can't without losing dps. Also, in pvp when can you ever channel something? It just doesn't work. I think it needs a rework for it's summoning mechanic or at least a glyph you can put on to make it instant cast and have the duration cut in half, or some other penalty so you can actually use it, other than before a pull, during a boss immune transition phase. I just realized after pvping a great deal that I can't use it, and if I do I'll get nuked/interrupted before I get 2-3 ghouls out.

It's just all bad in it's current form.

Mage Clones - Instant
Shaman Elementals - Instant
Paladin Angel - Instant
Hunter Stampede - Instant
Warlock Infernal/Doomguard - Instant
Druid Treants - Instant

Granted, we have a single Ghoul we can raise, for 1 minutes. But how effective is it anyway? Not nearly as those that I mentioned.

/End rant.

I don't think this is a valid complaint. As DPS, you'll use it before the pull and you'll get maximum benefit from it considering all your trinkets will proc at the start of a fight and you'll be pre-potting. As a tank, you'll gain far more DPS and survivability from channeling it than whatever else you could have used your runes on in those four seconds. If a fight lasts more than 10 minutes, it's still a DPS gain to sit there and channel it.

In PVP, okay, sure, it can be interrupted, but so can tons of other abilities from the classes you mentioned, whereas Army is the only ability of ours that can be interrupted.

[Tecnice]

Saying that Stampede is a powerful ability is just silly. Unless you mean in PvE.

[Invictus9001]

Why? I don't understand why it's still a channeled ability. I find it pretty much useless, unless on a pull. If I sit there to cast it, it's a dps loss. If I try and use it in pvp, instant interrupt. Why is it still channeled? And if the reason is it's a powerful ability, then why isn't Stampede channeled? I just think it's a damn shame.

In slightly reverse order...

Stampede's been nerfed horribly. The pets summoned now do basic auto-attacks, no special abilities, just normal smack-smack-smack. A generic pet multiplied by 5 for a few seconds. Somewhat insulting as I'd have figured the issues with Stampede (mainly the summoned pets performing taunt abilities) had been resolved already (when the summoned pets were no longer able to perform those taunt abilities.) /shrug

On topic: Casting prior to the boss-pull is never a DPS loss. Fights can last long enough that you can (often now) get off a second cast of Army mid to late fight. You may not be able to "maximize" your DPS while channeling Army during the fight, but you're not stuffed into a zero-DPS pigeonhole either. Your diseases will still be ticking, you can use Death and Decay, and upon channeling Army pop other cool-downs available/trinkets to help make up for the channel time.

As to your PVP concern.. the most polite thing I can say is that trying to channel the ability out in midfield is surely begging to be interrupted, and anyone short of a Disc priest would be an idiot not to interrupt the cast. Army is, IMO, best utilized defensively (from a BG oriented perspective). The look of other people's faces when they bum-rush a flag-carrier in a WSG flagroom.. only to find a dozen ghouls flying at them.. is priceless. That's just one example, but that line of thinking will give you more opportunities to use the ability without having to worry about being instantly interrupted all the time.

[Sebsmash]

I think the main point I was trying to make is, out of every other class that can summon minions to fight for them, none of them can be interrupted, minus being silenced during said summoning, which can just be waited out. Stampede/Mirror Image/Treants being the main, considering they are a few if not more minions.

For pve usage, I can understand using it before a pull since MOST fights don't last longer than 10 minutes, minus heroic fights. And also, I understand the usefulness to a tank ( as I play a blood dk as well as a frost dk for pvp ) and wouldn't like it to be changed all around, maybe for dps specs only, and if anything a glyph for pvp usage because when I reach my 10 minute mark for a heroic kill and we have 5 more minutes left give or take, I would like to be able to pop it without having to sit and channel and risk mechanics making me have to move thus interrupting the channel.

Maybe my goal is too lofty, but it needs some kind of update.

Edit: I don't understand why everyone thinks I'm staying casting BEFORE a pull is a dps loss, that's not what I'm saying AT ALL. Of course you will cast it pre-pull for the beginning of a fight, anyone who knows anything about the class knows that, including me. The issue is casting it DURING a fight.

[Scyzek]

Why would you not cast it on prepull? The only fight I can cast it a second time is on heroic lei shen, and I do it when soaking a bouncing bolt while also out of melee range. Army is a really unique spell that gives a fun element to our class. When I first got it in wrath it was my favorite spell. Being able to instantly summon it seems overpowered considering the millions of damage they do. Mirror images do maybe 1/4th of that, terrorguards about 1/2, hunters are about equal. This spell is something that might actually require you to think about when and where would be best to use it, instead of just button mashing.

[Kraeth]

I think the main point I was trying to make is, out of every other class that can summon minions to fight for them, none of them can be interrupted, minus being silenced during said summoning, which can just be waited out. Stampede/Mirror Image/Treants being the main, considering they are a few if not more minions.

For pve usage, I can understand using it before a pull since MOST fights don't last longer than 10 minutes, minus heroic fights. And also, I understand the usefulness to a tank ( as I play a blood dk as well as a frost dk for pvp ) and wouldn't like it to be changed all around, maybe for dps specs only, and if anything a glyph for pvp usage because when I reach my 10 minute mark for a heroic kill and we have 5 more minutes left give or take, I would like to be able to pop it without having to sit and channel and risk mechanics making me have to move thus interrupting the channel.

Maybe my goal is too lofty, but it needs some kind of update.

Edit: I don't understand why everyone thinks I'm staying casting BEFORE a pull is a dps loss, that's not what I'm saying AT ALL. Of course you will cast it pre-pull for the beginning of a fight, anyone who knows anything about the class knows that, including me. The issue is casting it DURING a fight.

As for other pet stuff, they're very different. No point comparing them to Army or as a matter of fact to each other.

And casting AotD midfight is generally still a dps gain. Not sure what the problem here is.

[Kraeth]

I've always believed that the channel should be made slightly easier, in the sense that it should not be interrupted by movement. I really hate not being able to dodge abilities or react to debuffs (etc) while channeling it.
Otherwise I think it's a perfectly fine mechanic and adds flavor. Nothing more than small QoL changes that could improve it.

I completely agree. It's not often but every now and then I have to cancel the cast due to some very bad stuff coming my way and I have to move. Those instances are rare though.

[Maxweii]

I completely agree. It's not often but every now and then I have to cancel the cast due to some very bad stuff coming my way and I have to move. Those instances are rare though.

I agree with this, while yes for the most part I never get interupted if there is a time when I can channel it during combat, the times I do are very very rare. If you know fight mechanics then you can easily avoid ever being interupted with it, as you will become accustomed to when would be the best time to channel the ability.

Blue's specifically pointed out (might have been GC can't remember whom said it) at one point that the rune to damage cost of army being channeled is higher then what you could do with similar runes. Take an Unholy dk, give a dot tick, auto attack, festering strike and SS (or even 3 SS) and that still doesnt beat what army does. It's a really strong CD, and Blizz made sure they fixed it going into Mists so that the channel time is not a dps loss, anyone whom thinks it still is frankly is just stuck in Cata when it was horrendous to cast it mid pull.


I love the CD reduction trink in 5.4 for this, it makes army a 6 min CD. Easily useed twice most fights, and on long heroic encounters (maybe Garrosh heroic if he turns to be a super long fight) it could even be used three times. The trink gives army more impact to us, makes it a bit stronger due to the fact it's uptime is so much higher. I agree with Mione also that only small small changes could be done to improve it, and even then it's just QOL things.

I would actually hate the ability to just instantly summon the army, I mean it gives a bit of feel to it. Makes us feel like a death knight to be using our death touched powers to draw out that many from ghouls and such to be under our command for a short time.

[Kraeth]

On/off topic, do you think the cd trinket will keep on affecting AotD? It seems somehow... Unreal. Army on 2x cd of non-affected Gargoyle? Yes please. Though I think Gary does almost comparable damage by himself. Best crit on a non-gimmick boss with sub-3k mastery has been something like 480k with max procs. Or maybe it was some gimmick. Anyway.

[Maxweii]

On/off topic, do you think the cd trinket will be affecting AotD? It seems somehow... Unreal. Army on 2x cd of non-affected Gargoyle? Yes please. Though I think Gary does almost comparable damage by himself. Best crit on a non-gimmick boss with sub-3k mastery has been something like 480k with max procs.

For Unholy the CD trink reduces Army, Gary, UF, AMS, IBF, and Outbreak

It used to not affect Gary but they changed it, and the moment they did I knew I was running Skeer's/CD reducer

[Deleted]

Well so we all agree that it is pretty useful cooldown. Tho I understand that guy who started thread would love to see it instant, summoning ~100 ghouls, each one hitting enemy. Won't happen. Still pretty useful cd.

[Deleted]

Your raid leader/tank should be doing a countdown to the pull... at least 5-7 seconds. At this time you pop army and all your ghouls should have crawled their way out of the ground by the time you attack the boss.

do this at 4 sec it takes 4 sec to cast that 1-2 sec more army on mr boss

[Deleted]

do this at 4 sec it takes 4 sec to cast that 1-2 sec more army on mr boss

Takes 4 seconds to cast, takes them another second or two to climb out of the ground and you need a second of leeway to pre-pot.

[Hemalador]

Absolutely agree, making Army cast on the move is the way to go. IMO it should also be free. It's something that has been annoying me for quite a while that DK cooldowns have resource costs (although they are slowly going), and this is another cooldown that needs to lose it's cost. Having costs is more inconvenient than anything else, although you do need to pre plan their use, the realty is you stop attacking for a few seconds before casting army, and thats not fun.