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  1. #1

    PVP Assassination openers..

    Was wondering how people open under certain circumstances?
    Full CDs start of fight, re-opening after initial opener with a bleed already up and triggering Venemous Wounds, etc.
    I understand its essential to open with bleeds because of VW energy ticks... But what's the exact sequence people are using to get VW and slice dice up and running when your stuns finish and your opponent can start fighting back..

  2. #2
    Cheap shot -> Garrotte -> Ambush -> Rupture, Blow your nuke macro, destroy.
    Don't be elitist, it's a video game for crying out loud. Cure cancer, then you can be an asshole.

  3. #3
    Depends on some things. You use subterfuge or shadow focus, you fight vs melee or ranged, ranged caster or bm hunter with pet. I played assasination since WOTLK, and even through MoP, when every pvp rogue was using subtlety, i stayed with beloved assasination spec. And the thing i can say about using it, is that you can't say Assasination opener, for me this spec is about improvising and making most of rogue. Yes, there are some kind of a system, what you can use, while opening, but mostly you decide on your own, at the time, at the place.

    Anyways here are some usable sequences:
    (using subterfuge) Vendetta+Shadow blades macro --> [CS --> Garrote -->Ambush](vary these depending on situation, for ex. fighting caster might be best to open with cs, then ambush, then garrote, so just after subterfuge fades you still got your opponent silenced from garotte) --> AP trinket --> Envenom --> Muti 2x --> Dispatch if possible --> KS --> Marked for Death(you might want to use it to apply Recuperate or SnD) --> Rupture/Envenom....

    (no subterfuge) Vendetta+Shadow blades macro --> CS/Garrote --> Muti --> Envenom --> Marked for death(if you want) --> KS --> Muti -->rupture...

    Also if you've been fan of subtlety spec, you can make assasination similar to it by doing pre snd:
    Marked for Death --> Slice and dice --> improvised opening

    I hope this helps Gl

  4. #4
    I say assassination opener because its important to have bleeds up from the get go.
    My next question is: at what point should you start thinking about putting up SnD? How essential is it to our damage aside from the obvious melee haste when considering poison application and the envenom buff. Should SnD be up before the first envenom?
    Also i see a lot of people saying to CS/garrote as part of the opener and then finishing out of subterfuge with rupture but only rupture OR garrote can trigger Venemous wounds so it seems a waste to double up on them. Also, rupture ticks every 2 seconds and garrote every 3 so rupture seems like the superior choice when considering VW.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Damien36 View Post
    Cheap shot -> Garrotte -> Ambush -> Rupture, Blow your nuke macro, destroy.
    Two of you guys say ambush. I just really disagree with that.

    If you are opening shadow focus, open with cheap shot or garrote, depending on your target and glyphs. Favor garrote if possible- this will let you land a full kidney if you want. If you are opening with subterfuge, do an opening garrote into cheap if the target won't be able to escape easily- if they will, then open cheap shot and garrote. I suggest, very strongly, avoiding ambush- your mutilate during this phase can proc a dispatch, after all, and ambush is way too costly anyway.

    Get slice and dice up. Will your opponent be going immune to everything soon? If so, don't rupture. If you suspect it will be a normal fight, put up a rupture. I prefer a small opening rupture for opponents who won't stealth, and a larger one for those that do. Can you burst? If your opponent will blow cooldowns to ignore your burst while fucking you up, consider popping no cooldowns, and building normally combo points, then pool. If your opponent will instead have to rely on damage mitigation cooldowns, you should pop your cooldowns right away, and preferably stun your opponent to give you a few more seconds of good damage.

  6. #6
    Personal I had very good experience with following opener
    ---
    Vs casters: Garrote -> SnD -> Cheap -> Ambush -> Mutilate -> and full Envenom
    ---
    Vs melee: Cheap -> SnD -> Garrote -> Ambush -> Mutilate -> and full Envenom

    You can cut away the mutilate and just go for a 3 point Envenom, since you still will get the SnD but the chance of getting your paralytic proc will be less.

    This way you will get your bleed going for bonus energy regen + the damage of Venomous Wounds.
    Since I use paralytic poison - the full Envenom will give you a huge chance of getting the paralytic stun after 1-2 sec after you cheap ends. (This will be almost 100% in 5.4)
    This - with Vendetta will make for some serious damage 1 hard stunlock.

    The Envenom will also make you 1 point SnD full and that way you will not waste any CP's on getting SnD going.

    Ps: Be aware! By doing this you will put your target on all your important DR's, now your only peel left will be Gouge (50% if you open on sap), Disarm and Kick. (You can blind but it will remove your bleed + deadly poison)
    Last edited by Yellowstreet; 2013-08-22 at 08:33 AM.

  7. #7
    I think it's important to assess which pvp situation you are in when deciding how to open.

    In duels or ganking in the world I prefer to follow what Yellowstreet is advocating where you get SnD asap with cut to the chase and then possibly vanish/reopen.

    In arenas or more organized pvp however, I like to garrote x3 for venomous wounds with cloak and dagger + subterfuge to get steady pressure going. I usually tend to not invest as much in SnD when I anticipate I might get cc'ed and instead focus on rupture/garrote.

  8. #8
    Next question: how much are people investing in the envenom buff for poison application purposes? I mean.. do you pull energy a few moments before a big envenom so you can sit on the target and get off 2xmutilates off for the increased poison application?

    Thoughts?

  9. #9
    Don't know about envenom - It seems to do little damage, so I often prefer doing recup instead, if my paralytic is on DR. If I want to setup a stunlock - I'll pool up energy, Double stun, and if you get an envenom in-between your stuns - there is a huuuuge change that you will get a 4sec paralytic after - which leads to a deadly stunlock.

  10. #10
    High Overlord Sqeen's Avatar
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    The opener really depends on the talents you choose. My general opener (I am specced into subterfuge and Marked for Death) is CS > Mutilate > Garrote > Rupture (I want to get both bleeds up for extra damage and Rupture lasts longer). After that I go for either a Mutilate (2CB or 3 when using my CDs) > SnD into 5CB Envenom followed by a MfD Envenom or if I used MfD for pre SnD in stealth I go straight for a 5CB Envenom and normal fighting afterwards.

    Opening with CS has 3 big advantages in my opinion:

    #1 if you open with garrote your target is still able to move and I don't like to chase after them while doing my opener
    #2 sometimes you meet scrubs who trinket your stun or mages who blink away and you can follow up your opener with a KS
    #3 you make better use of your garrote silence since CS will be run out by the time you apply it and in my opinion it makes more sense then vice versa

  11. #11
    With shadow focus as my talent and ST as my level 90 talent:

    Melee: sap > CS > rup > mut > snd > vendetta+SB > mut to 3-5 cps > kidney > mut > envenom. Stun as much as possible while landing as many envenoms i can before SB's runs out.

    With casters its the same but i swap CS for garrote.

    Heres my talent tree http://www.wowhead.com/talent#rZE|NhqRk0

    I run ST, Nerve Strike, and Prey on the weak exclusively for pvp.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Yellowstreet View Post
    Don't know about envenom - It seems to do little damage, so I often prefer doing recup instead, if my paralytic is on DR. If I want to setup a stunlock - I'll pool up energy, Double stun, and if you get an envenom in-between your stuns - there is a huuuuge change that you will get a 4sec paralytic after - which leads to a deadly stunlock.
    Then youre not stacking mastery. I have ~95% base mastery and my poisons and envenom hit for a TON. Mut rogues are about poisons. Mastery = more poison dmg. If youre not gemming full mastery, youre doing it wrong.
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  12. #12
    Did not know that mastery increased the damage of envenom?! Thought it was only the damage of deadly/wound poison. I stack agility in reds and in the rest i go for mastery and Agi/mastery?! Seems to work for me.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Yellowstreet View Post
    Did not know that mastery increased the damage of envenom?! Thought it was only the damage of deadly/wound poison. I stack agility in reds and in the rest i go for mastery and Agi/mastery?! Seems to work for me.
    Just for kicks i put on my combat pvp gear in assassination spec and in combat gear my envenom hits for 19,613 at 5 points. In my mastery mut pvp set, envenom hits for 20,632. Combat gear is basically full haste/agi.

    Also if youre using wound as assassination, youre doing it wrong.
    Last edited by Ambushu; 2013-08-26 at 06:38 AM.
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  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Ambushu View Post
    Just for kicks i put on my combat pvp gear in assassination spec and in combat gear my envenom hits for 19,613 at 5 points. In my mastery mut pvp set, envenom hits for 20,632. Combat gear is basically full haste/agi.

    Also if youre using wound as assassination, youre doing it wrong.
    Hmm a 1k damage increase does not seem like it's worth going for full mastery?

    Of cause I use deadly but the damage increase also apply for would poison so thought it would be worth mentioning.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Yellowstreet View Post
    Hmm a 1k damage increase does not seem like it's worth going for full mastery?

    Of cause I use deadly but the damage increase also apply for would poison so thought it would be worth mentioning.
    Ive tried full agi, ive tried matching sockets, ive even tried pvp power. Nothing seems to best full mastery.
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  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Yellowstreet View Post
    Hmm a 1k damage increase does not seem like it's worth going for full mastery?

    Of cause I use deadly but the damage increase also apply for would poison so thought it would be worth mentioning.
    Unless I'm totally mistaken, mastery also increase damage by venomous wounds so it's more then a 1k damage increase.
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  17. #17
    The Lightbringer Ermahgerd's Avatar
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    Since I play with shadow focus it's either cheap shot or garrote depending on target, SnD, Mutilate 2x, Rupture etc. If I'm fighting a healer I throw in a shiv for 100% increased damage.

    Thing is, as assass it's not really optimal to use subterfuge because if you have rupture on your target, garrote will no longer proc venomous wounds and give energy. Plus garrote ticks every 3 seconds, while rupture ticks every 2.

    For sublety subterfuge is more optimal because you can use ambush (ambush is really bad to use as assassination) while subterfuged and it doesn't matter whether you have garrote or rupture on your target.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Cirayne24 View Post
    Unless I'm totally mistaken, mastery also increase damage by venomous wounds so it's more then a 1k damage increase.
    It in fact does. Again in my full mastery pvp set, Venomous Wounds does 11,928 additonal Nature damage and while in my combat pvp which is basically full agi and agi/haste, Venomous Wounds does 8, 227 additional Nature damage.
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  19. #19
    Depends on which class you are going to open. For example on DK's i open with garrote and then a cheap shot, so they can't IBF it.
    Most of the time you go for cheap shot, garrote,mutilate or ambush(i like mutilate for the possibility of getting a free ambush) after that I shiv and wait a bit and kidney shot.

  20. #20
    I personally have a lot of fun (and it works well) with the following opener (btw I take Cloak and Dagger, Subterfuge and para poison):

    Garrote
    SnD (gives energy regen!)
    Cheap
    Ambush/mutilate
    Rupture
    Shiv
    MoD Envenom or Kidney (check para stacks)
    disarm / cloak / evasion or Shadowmeld --> stealth

    Enemy can do very little and the dots just tick away ^^

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