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  1. #1

    Prot getting hosed?

    Maybe I'm a little late with my complaints and maybe it isn't as bad as I think, but are tanks (Paladins especially) getting totally hosed in 5.4?

    I just started a prot pally recently and he is only level 71 so I don't know how the changes will translate at 90 but after reading the patch notes I think rolling a tank was a bad idea. These are from the PTR patch notes:

    All tanks:
    •Vengeance now grants Attack Power equal to 1.5% of the damage taken, down from 1.8% (The tooltip said 2% but it was actually 1.8%). (nerf)
    •Tanks no longer receive Vengeance from many persistent area damage effects (standing in the fire) or from missed attacks (dodging and parrying an attack will continue to work as it has before). (nerf)
    •Vengeance gains from being critically hit have been reduced by 50%. (nerf)
    •There are now diminishing returns on Vengeance gains while tanking multiple targets. Each additional target grants progressively less Vengeance. (nerf)
    Are tanks really doing too much damage? Yes, leveling up I have been far and away the top dps in my LFD groups but this won't last at 90, will it?

    Paladin:
    •Seal of Insight no longer has a chance to restore mana on attacks. (nerf)
    •Protection: Sacred Shield is 30% less effective. (major nerf)
    •Glyph of the Battle Healer has been redesigned. The glyph now causes Seal of Insight to no longer heal the Paladin. Instead, a nearby raid or party member will receive healing for 30% of the amount the Paladin would have received from Seal of Insight. (just ouch)
    •Glyph of the Alabaster Shield now increases damage for the next Shield of the Righteous by 10% per stack (down from 20% per stack). (nerf)


    I'm thinking I need to switch from Sacred Shield to Eternal Flame. Yes?

    One buff I see is: •Characters in a tanking specialization now generates 40% more threat. However maintaining threat doesn't seem to be an issue at all. Again, I'm only 71 on my pally (main is a shaman healer, who is getting mucho buffed)

    Personally I don't understand the nerfs. On my server tanks are hard to come by, shouldn't Blizzard be encouraging people to play tanks? I don't see how nerfing them is good for anyone. Are pallies just OP right now? My question is, was rolling a tank a bad idea? Are the changes as bad as I think they are? Am I overreacting?

  2. #2
    First off, I'm not entirely clear on sub-90 Prot paladins and how we shake out, my comments are just on level 90 paladin tanks.

    Second, yes, you're overreacting. Tanks in general and paladin tanks specifically will still be fine. We will do rather less damage but tanks will still bring plenty of dps to raids (I'm very slightly concerned about our dps going forward, but I think tanks in general will be much, much closer together than we were in t15. We will be vastly better off than Warriors have been this expansion). I'm afraid to say that Prot Pallies are basically OP on live right now (along with Monks) in terms of survivability and utility (not so much for dps) and the changes are needed to bring us into line with other tanks. How precisely they've managed to hit the target I couldn't tell you, we'll have to see.

    EF vs SS is an interesting discussion that I don't think is entirely played out yet.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Welsh View Post
    Maybe I'm a little late with my complaints and maybe it isn't as bad as I think, but are tanks (Paladins especially) getting totally hosed in 5.4?
    Nope. Not even partially hosed.

    Personally I don't understand the nerfs. On my server tanks are hard to come by, shouldn't Blizzard be encouraging people to play tanks? I don't see how nerfing them is good for anyone. Are pallies just OP right now? My question is, was rolling a tank a bad idea? Are the changes as bad as I think they are? Am I overreacting?
    Nerfs are to bring some parity to tank classes. Currently, Monks and Pals are just head and shoulders above the rest. After 5.4, we'll see a BIT more parity. Mostly via warriors getting some love, though; now it'll be something like:

    Monk>Pal>>War>>>>>Druid>DK

    The nerfs you listed above are two parts. First one applies to all tanks, so we can just toss those right out. Second ones really aren't hashed out in your post. SOI doesn't give mana back anymore, but we got GbtL buffed to account for this, so no mana issues. BH was a bit too passive/set-n-forget, so it got the axe. They didn't axe it enough at first, but now have entirely killed it. This is due to people reading recount and bitching, but that's just the way it is. Alab shield was a bit strong (seeing 2mil ShotRs on DA/Horri was silly), but as we progress now, we're firing off ShotR too fast for it to reach max potential anyway.

    SS was too "obvious", so it was cut back. Personally, I was pissed at first, but looking at t16 4p and playing on PTR, it now gives us an actual choice between SS/EF. Well, sort of anyway. I wouldn't use EF until you have 4p t16, else you'll just end up with a net loss.

    TL;DR - you're overreacting a lot, esp for someone who's not even 90. Tanks are fine, pallies are top of the pile with monks, and will still be after these changes.
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  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Welsh View Post
    Are tanks really doing too much damage? Yes, leveling up I have been far and away the top dps in my LFD groups but this won't last at 90, will it?
    While standing in bad things and/or tanking a lot of mobs paladins were doing entirely too much DPS and HPS. When you're already solo tanking a fight like Tortos and your WoL ranking strategy involves burning your defensive cooldowns to stand in something that was meant to be avoided to further cheese vengence something has gone wrong. The 1/N reduction in additional adds nerf and the standing in bad nerfs were really necessary. Was the veng cap necessary? Perhaps not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Welsh View Post
    Paladin:
    •Seal of Insight no longer has a chance to restore mana on attacks. (nerf)
    Our passive mana regen was buffed. This was to fix a 'problem' with Holy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Welsh View Post
    •Protection: Sacred Shield is 30% less effective. (major nerf)
    Major but necessary. This talent was mandatory and a significant reason why we could cheese vengence. Recasting SS at a high vengence level made you significantly more invulnerable than most tanking classes. This did bad things such as enable the DA zerg strat.

    Quote Originally Posted by Welsh View Post
    •Glyph of the Battle Healer has been redesigned. The glyph now causes Seal of Insight to no longer heal the Paladin. Instead, a nearby raid or party member will receive healing for 30% of the amount the Paladin would have received from Seal of Insight. (just ouch)
    BH was a glyph no one was removing. It needed to be adjusted. Now I'd state its situational (at best :/)

    Quote Originally Posted by Welsh View Post
    •Glyph of the Alabaster Shield now increases damage for the next Shield of the Righteous by 10% per stack (down from 20% per stack). (nerf)
    Glyphs like Final Wrath were mostly a better DPS upgrade except for on multi add fights. The way Grand Crusader was changed will provide us a buff on those fights anyways so I don't think this is major.

    Quote Originally Posted by Welsh View Post
    I'm thinking I need to switch from Sacred Shield to Eternal Flame. Yes?
    That depends on the situation and how your healer intends to be healing you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Welsh View Post
    One buff I see is: •Characters in a tanking specialization now generates 40% more threat. However maintaining threat doesn't seem to be an issue at all. Again, I'm only 71 on my pally (main is a shaman healer, who is getting mucho buffed)
    I suspect this is mostly to offset the changes in vengence.

    Quote Originally Posted by Welsh View Post
    Personally I don't understand the nerfs. On my server tanks are hard to come by, shouldn't Blizzard be encouraging people to play tanks? I don't see how nerfing them is good for anyone. Are pallies just OP right now? My question is, was rolling a tank a bad idea? Are the changes as bad as I think they are? Am I overreacting?
    You are definitely overreacting. Pallies are going to still be excellent tanks in 5.4. Tanks in general are still going to be awesome in 5.4.

  5. #5
    Thank you all for the feedback.

  6. #6
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    Doesn't seem to me like we're being "hosed", more like a lot of the Paladin cheesing is being removed. Let's face it, Glyph of Battle Healer was too good, it HAD to be nerfed. The whole reduced vengeance from standing in fire and using /sit is IMHO a good thing, since you obviously aren't supposed to be standing in shit or letting the boss crit you, and it was only done to cheese out DPS, so I don't mind that. The Sacred Shield nerf isn't good news, but I like having a choice between that or EF instead of SS being a mandatory talent; I haven't done enough testing yet to see which one I'm going to run with to start at least, I might end up sticking with SS just because it's what I'm used to, but EF gives me one less button I have to have keybound :P

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  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Welsh View Post
    •Seal of Insight no longer has a chance to restore mana on attacks. (nerf)
    •Protection: Sacred Shield is 30% less effective. (major nerf)
    •Glyph of the Battle Healer has been redesigned. The glyph now causes Seal of Insight to no longer heal the Paladin. Instead, a nearby raid or party member will receive healing for 30% of the amount the Paladin would have received from Seal of Insight. (just ouch)
    •Glyph of the Alabaster Shield now increases damage for the next Shield of the Righteous by 10% per stack (down from 20% per stack). (nerf)
    I know others replied but just gonna chime in aswell.

    Seal on insight mana restore is irrelevant. We get the mana passively now. Which is kinda bad since new paladins not using SoI wont notice themselves going oom. More new paladins will use the "wrong" seals.

    Sacred shield nerf is not that major, it still serves its purpose. You also have to remember that with the EF buffs, overall we are probably seeing ourselves even stronger from those talents, being more flexible with what we can use. High healing throughput compared to medium absorbs.
    Battle-Healer change is meh for me. I did not use it for several fights anyway, and never liked it anyway. Nothing like entire raid going low and your battle-healer keeps healing the Ebon Imps. Atleast now that we dont use GID anymore, dont have a golden dragon popping up going:

    'Oh, I see your raid is low. Would be a shame if a dragon procced up and soaked all your stupid heals)'

    For me this is a small nerf on some fights, yes, but overall it just feels like they freed up a glyph slot for those fights so I am not mad. I think battle-healer has been decent, but its effects have been largely exaggerated by people that cant look past the healing done in recount. It had its uses, but by far not godlike. We will do fine without it.

    Alabaster shield is not really that major, I already found myself not using it on several fights in favor of FS/FW/BH combo. AS was only really extremely good on add fights this tier and challenge modes.

    What you are also forgetting is the huge buff to GC which in my eyes weighs up all "nerfs" done to us.
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  8. #8
    Blizzard decided we were doing too much damage if we had 280.000 vengeance. Unfortunatelly their internal tests didn't show our damage is absolute crap with anyting lower than that and that trying to tank trash with another tank makes you look like a castrated monkey.

  9. #9
    Herald of the Titans Tehterokkar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    I know others replied but just gonna chime in aswell.

    Seal on insight mana restore is irrelevant. We get the mana passively now. Which is kinda bad since new paladins not using SoI wont notice themselves going oom. More new paladins will use the "wrong" seals.

    Sacred shield nerf is not that major, it still serves its purpose. You also have to remember that with the EF buffs, overall we are probably seeing ourselves even stronger from those talents, being more flexible with what we can use. High healing throughput compared to medium absorbs.
    Battle-Healer change is meh for me. I did not use it for several fights anyway, and never liked it anyway. Nothing like entire raid going low and your battle-healer keeps healing the Ebon Imps. Atleast now that we dont use GID anymore, dont have a golden dragon popping up going:

    'Oh, I see your raid is low. Would be a shame if a dragon procced up and soaked all your stupid heals)'

    For me this is a small nerf on some fights, yes, but overall it just feels like they freed up a glyph slot for those fights so I am not mad. I think battle-healer has been decent, but its effects have been largely exaggerated by people that cant look past the healing done in recount. It had its uses, but by far not godlike. We will do fine without it.

    Alabaster shield is not really that major, I already found myself not using it on several fights in favor of FS/FW/BH combo. AS was only really extremely good on add fights this tier and challenge modes.

    What you are also forgetting is the huge buff to GC which in my eyes weighs up all "nerfs" done to us.

    I'm still not too sold on EF > SS in some scenarios. SS is still basically free, while EF costs 3x Holy Power thus causing to miss out on ShotR(unless we have a Lei Shi type of fight of 100% Magical boss dmg).

    Chances are with EF that you really won't see that big of a benefit as the HoT is mostly wasted due to your healers keeping you up. It might do for 10m where bosses are 2 healed. But for 25m, you have designated healers to keep an eye more on tanks than other raid members.

    Even still on progression of 25HC, the increased EH from SS absorb(100-150k every ~2.5 sec) can sometimes save you due to being undergeared(Say, Horridon Heroic on 2nd week of ToT taking Triple Punctures with him being enraged).

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Welsh View Post
    Maybe I'm a little late with my complaints and maybe it isn't as bad as I think, but are tanks (Paladins especially) getting totally hosed in 5.4?

    I just started a prot pally recently and he is only level 71 so I don't know how the changes will translate at 90 but after reading the patch notes I think rolling a tank was a bad idea. These are from the PTR patch notes:

    All tanks:
    •Vengeance now grants Attack Power equal to 1.5% of the damage taken, down from 1.8% (The tooltip said 2% but it was actually 1.8%). (nerf)
    •Tanks no longer receive Vengeance from many persistent area damage effects (standing in the fire) or from missed attacks (dodging and parrying an attack will continue to work as it has before). (nerf)
    •Vengeance gains from being critically hit have been reduced by 50%. (nerf)
    •There are now diminishing returns on Vengeance gains while tanking multiple targets. Each additional target grants progressively less Vengeance. (nerf)
    Are tanks really doing too much damage? Yes, leveling up I have been far and away the top dps in my LFD groups but this won't last at 90, will it?
    Tanks were abusing vengeance (standing in shit, solo-tanking anything they could and pulling extra mobs that were unintended). Perhaps all the nerfs together are abit too much at least on add-fights. But something was definately needed.

    •Seal of Insight no longer has a chance to restore mana on attacks. (nerf)
    Compensated for with an increase to passive regen. Doesn't matter one bit.

    •Protection: Sacred Shield is 30% less effective. (major nerf)
    SS was slightly too strong, nerf is a re-balance more than anything.

    •Glyph of the Battle Healer has been redesigned. The glyph now causes Seal of Insight to no longer heal the Paladin. Instead, a nearby raid or party member will receive healing for 30% of the amount the Paladin would have received from Seal of Insight. (just ouch)
    Just means we won't be using battlehealer. Doesn't damage our own survivability anyhow.

    •Glyph of the Alabaster Shield now increases damage for the next Shield of the Righteous by 10% per stack (down from 20% per stack). (nerf)
    Minor damage nerf. My only concern is that with all the other nerfs happening to tank damage that blizzard overdid it.
    Sort of like holy paladins who received several nerfs in 5.3 all of which would've been enough to bring them in-line on their own but together made holy paladins weaker than other healers.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Tehterokkar View Post
    I'm still not too sold on EF > SS in some scenarios. SS is still basically free, while EF costs 3x Holy Power thus causing to miss out on ShotR(unless we have a Lei Shi type of fight of 100% Magical boss dmg).

    Chances are with EF that you really won't see that big of a benefit as the HoT is mostly wasted due to your healers keeping you up. It might do for 10m where bosses are 2 healed. But for 25m, you have designated healers to keep an eye more on tanks than other raid members.

    Even still on progression of 25HC, the increased EH from SS absorb(100-150k every ~2.5 sec) can sometimes save you due to being undergeared(Say, Horridon Heroic on 2nd week of ToT taking Triple Punctures with him being enraged).
    SS costs a gcd, while EF is pretty much free with t16 4p o0
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  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Tehterokkar View Post
    I'm still not too sold on EF > SS in some scenarios. SS is still basically free, while EF costs 3x Holy Power thus causing to miss out on ShotR(unless we have a Lei Shi type of fight of 100% Magical boss dmg).
    This is why a lot of people are talking about EF in the context of having 4pc T16, which makes maintaining it cost no holy power.

    But yeah, the values of EF and SS will change depending on your healers, raid size, what boss you're tanking etc. Personally, watching the bosses in SoO, I can see myself using EF quite a bit. Other fights, I can see me sticking with SS.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Nillo View Post
    SS costs a gcd, while EF is pretty much free with t16 4p o0
    Though, FINALLY, SS GCD is proper scaling with haste!

    Just in time to see the spell nerfed, and maybe dropped in favor of EF once you get t16 4p.
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  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Nillo View Post
    SS costs a gcd, while EF is pretty much free with t16 4p o0
    This is often underappreciated. Your SS GCD traditionally hasn't been affected by Haste, meaning its upkeep takes something like 4% of our GCDs even with perfect play. And shifting it a bit to not bump HoPo producers (something that inevitably still happens occasionally anyway) or refreshing early to take advantage of a big spike in Vengeance, makes it even worse.

    Edit - Nairobi, you need to get the hell out of my head. You're starting to freak me out.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Wrathblood View Post
    This is often underappreciated. Your SS GCD traditionally hasn't been affected by Haste, meaning its upkeep takes something like 4% of our GCDs even with perfect play. And shifting it a bit to not bump HoPo producers (something that inevitably still happens occasionally anyway) or refreshing early to take advantage of a big spike in Vengeance, makes it even worse.

    Edit - Nairobi, you need to get the hell out of my head. You're starting to freak me out.
    Yep, on PTR with testing 4pc and EF, freeing up just 2.5-3 GCDs per minute from not maintaining SS allows for an additional 1.5-3 sec of ShotR uptime (depending on what gets pushed out, and/or DP procs), which is nontrivial and worth ~5% haste alone. Plus, your uptime on EF is near as makes no difference 100% "passively" which is a great QOL buff.

    And lol, I think there are a few of us sharing brainwaves around here
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  16. #16
    Herald of the Titans Tehterokkar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nillo View Post
    SS costs a gcd, while EF is pretty much free with t16 4p o0
    But seeing as it doesn't really matter what you replace the non-CS/Judge spells(Holy Wrath, Consecration, Hammer of Wrath, T90) with, other than DPS, it just doesn't feel right to justify the choice with "SS costs a GCD".

  17. #17
    At 50% haste, if you used SS 3 times per minute, you lost 1.3% sotr uptime due to the GCD, not counting T5 talents and GC procs. I am so happy that SS finally scales with haste, been bothering me since beta.

    So hopefully we will see a bit higher SotR uptimes now just because of that.
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  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Tehterokkar View Post
    But seeing as it doesn't really matter what you replace the non-CS/Judge spells(Holy Wrath, Consecration, Hammer of Wrath, T90) with, other than DPS, it just doesn't feel right to justify the choice with "SS costs a GCD".
    Again, (most) anyone giving EF credence is doing so under the supposition that it is used in conjunciton with 4t16, allowing it to have no cost AND to provide a fish for DP. There is no downside there (aside from the obvious medium absorb vs large HOT discussion).

    SS still, no matter how you cut it, requires maintenance and a GCD to function. Until 5.4, that GCD isn't hasted, effectively costing 1.5 GCD's worth of delay in the rotation. Unless you time every SS refresh to coincide with your 3rd cadence of rotation (CJ_, C_J, C__), you're going to push back a potential ShotR. At BEST, you push back/remove 2 fillers, which are higher DPS than C/J anyhow, 2-3x a minute, which DOES add up.
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  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Welsh View Post
    Maybe I'm a little late with my complaints and maybe it isn't as bad as I think, but are tanks (Paladins especially) getting totally hosed in 5.4?

    I just started a prot pally recently and he is only level 71 so I don't know how the changes will translate at 90 but after reading the patch notes I think rolling a tank was a bad idea. These are from the PTR patch notes:
    Well let's go over it :

    All tanks:
    •Vengeance now grants Attack Power equal to 1.5% of the damage taken, down from 1.8% (The tooltip said 2% but it was actually 1.8%). (nerf)
    Possibly the biggest nerf of them all, but affects everyone.

    •Tanks no longer receive Vengeance from many persistent area damage effects (standing in the fire) or from missed attacks (dodging and parrying an attack will continue to work as it has before). (nerf)
    While it is a nerf, and it did promote more skilled play it was sort of silly to stand in additional shit taking extra damage just for extra dps/hps

    •Vengeance gains from being critically hit have been reduced by 50%. (nerf)
    Not a nerf, we only get crit when we /sit which is far from intended behavior

    •There are now diminishing returns on Vengeance gains while tanking multiple targets. Each additional target grants progressively less Vengeance. (nerf)
    Minor one at that, we never really got that much veng from taking a lot of mobs, only 3 fights that i can come up with is Tort, solo tanking Meg and H DA and on H DA we're still going to have plenty of veng.

    Are tanks really doing too much damage? Yes, leveling up I have been far and away the top dps in my LFD groups but this won't last at 90, will it?
    Depending on how you play and which tank, but if you're a brewmaster/prot it very well may.

    Paladin:

    •Seal of Insight no longer has a chance to restore mana on attacks. (nerf)
    No real impact

    •Protection: Sacred Shield is 30% less effective. (major nerf)
    Less of a nerf than veng scaling. And it is a nerf but not "major"

    •Glyph of the Battle Healer has been redesigned. The glyph now causes Seal of Insight to no longer heal the Paladin. Instead, a nearby raid or party member will receive healing for 30% of the amount the Paladin would have received from Seal of Insight. (just ouch)
    Needed nerf, it was too good and always in.

    •Glyph of the Alabaster Shield now increases damage for the next Shield of the Righteous by 10% per stack (down from 20% per stack). (nerf)
    Meh

    I'm thinking I need to switch from Sacred Shield to Eternal Flame. Yes?

    One buff I see is: •Characters in a tanking specialization now generates 40% more threat. However maintaining threat doesn't seem to be an issue at all. Again, I'm only 71 on my pally (main is a shaman healer, who is getting mucho buffed)

    Personally I don't understand the nerfs. On my server tanks are hard to come by, shouldn't Blizzard be encouraging people to play tanks? I don't see how nerfing them is good for anyone. Are pallies just OP right now? My question is, was rolling a tank a bad idea? Are the changes as bad as I think they are? Am I overreacting?
    Some tanks (paladin/monks) were op, and we are getting nerfed and with a good reason.
    Now those nerfs aren't going to make ppl quit playing tanks because none of them are really that major.

  20. #20
    The new avenger shield proc passive is just amazing when you have a couple of targets attacking you.

    The new mana regen allows you to cast a few flash of lights here and there without wrecking your own mana supply.

    Prot and monk tank dps is still very strong, so they won't be moving from their throne even in 5.4 (unless more nerfs happen).
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    Melee dps spec: doping yourself with chems and tossing vicious acids on the enemies.
    Ranged dps: rockets, lasers, TNT critters and explosives, shrink rays and sapper mines.
    Healing spec: chemical sprays, needles, exploding flasks and other chemical type abilities to heal.

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