"Cheap" tactics in videogames

[Erolian]

How would you de-incentivize camping? It's often easier said than done.

I've got you here. There are a number of ways to de-incentivize camping and game developers seem to have lost most of them in recent years. The first thing that should always be done is make sure that wherever each team spawns is VERY bad to camp in. Put in lots of lines of sight no blind corners you couldn't take another route to check. Many entrances to everywhere but not so many that you can't make an intelligent entrance yourself. You don't want to be walking into a room with 8 doors and having to put your back to 4 of them just to see the other 4. The next is making powerful but exposed positions around the map that if controlled well convey a large advantage but not so powerful that you couldn't nade someone out of it or retake it from the other team. The third is having power ups and power weapons positioned around the map to encourage movement. Think of Quake notice how they're almost always flying around the map timing power ups grabbing armor and weapons? Exactly. The problem is that developers are making really shit maps lately along with no real power ups/power weapons so it lends a lot of strength to the otherwise terrible strategy of standing still somewhere. You should be losing something every second you aren't actively moving to the next power position/weapon/buff.

Example you're playing against 4 guys that have a campy setup inside some room that you cant get inside of without all of the insta killing you. Some rocket launcher with 2-4 shots spawns every 2 minutes in the middle of the map. You grab the rockets on spawn walk up to their room and kill them all then probably kill them all off of spawn again. I bet they stop camping in that room and fight over the rockets next time if they have a brain. Now add other power ups and weapons on different timers in different places. Suddenly there's a very real reason to move about the map controlled by the developers so they can shape map flow around it and camping becomes a thing of the past.

[ruiizu]

Winning is winning: there's no such thing as a "cheap" tactic. However, when one strategy completely overshadows gameplay and virtually guarantees victory, I find that playing in that way is not fun at all. Simply winning is not fun: if there's no challenge or obstacle to that victory, then the win itself is cheapened, and it usually leads to bad feelings as well.

Take Killer Instinct: you can slide kick someone to death because once they fall down, the controls can't really respond fast enough for them to duck-guard after standing up, allowing you to simply spam slide kick them to death. Sure, you win, but there's no fun in it for either of you, so why do it?

The flip side, however, is when said "cheap" method is extraordinarily hard to pull off. Take Endless Combo-ing someone in Marvel vs. Capcom games. Sure, it sucks once you're stuck in an Endless, but it's really really hard to keep that going for the offensive player, and there's also diminishing returns on each hit in the combo so there's increasing pressure to keep up the Endless.

All in all, it really does come down to good game design. If there's something that's "borderline" cheap, it should require massive amounts of skill and practice to pull off, and still have a good chance to fail or backfire. You gotta remember that games are about fun, so when something isn't fun then the game has failed.

Personally I avoid using "cheap" tactics because to me it usually just "cheapens" my win. If winning is all that matters when playing a game, you have some messed up priorities.

[Lothaeryn]

Winning is winning: there's no such thing as a "cheap" tactic. However, when one strategy completely overshadows gameplay and virtually guarantees victory, I find that playing in that way is not fun at all. Simply winning is not fun: if there's no challenge or obstacle to that victory, then the win itself is cheapened, and it usually leads to bad feelings as well.

Take Killer Instinct: you can slide kick someone to death because once they fall down, the controls can't really respond fast enough for them to duck-guard after standing up, allowing you to simply spam slide kick them to death. Sure, you win, but there's no fun in it for either of you, so why do it?

The flip side, however, is when said "cheap" method is extraordinarily hard to pull off. Take Endless Combo-ing someone in Marvel vs. Capcom games. Sure, it sucks once you're stuck in an Endless, but it's really really hard to keep that going for the offensive player, and there's also diminishing returns on each hit in the combo so there's increasing pressure to keep up the Endless.

All in all, it really does come down to good game design. If there's something that's "borderline" cheap, it should require massive amounts of skill and practice to pull off, and still have a good chance to fail or backfire. You gotta remember that games are about fun, so when something isn't fun then the game has failed.

Personally I avoid using "cheap" tactics because to me it usually just "cheapens" my win. If winning is all that matters when playing a game, you have some messed up priorities.

You just contradicted yourself...

[Coronius]

Winning is winning: there's no such thing as a "cheap" tactic.

If this was true, there would be no discussion about it. It's very common for people in general to find certain tactics cheap or cowardly. Just look at the SSB tournament during E3 when the audience boo'd at the winner for dodging until sudden. What is cheap and what is not is highly subjective however. But to say there is no such thing, at least in the eyes of the general public, is demonstrably wrong.

As for it not being fun using those tactics, I can certainly agree with that. It's not the reason people do it though; It's because they win. And people like winning, some like it even more than having fun.

[Erolian]

If this was true, there would be no discussion about it. It's very common for people in general to find certain tactics cheap or cowardly. Just look at the SSB tournament during E3 when the audience boo'd at the winner for dodging until sudden. What is cheap and what is not is highly subjective however. But to say there is no such thing, at least in the eyes of the general public, is demonstrably wrong.

As for it not being fun using those tactics, I can certainly agree with that. It's not the reason people do it though, it's because they win. And people like winning, some even more so than having fun.

Winning IS fun to some people. I think a lot of people forget that sometimes

[Coronius]

Winning IS fun to some people. I think a lot of people forget that sometimes

Of course. But if you're not in it for the gameplay, and are just in it for winning no matter what, I don't see the point in playing. Maybe it's just me.

[Ausr]

You'd be surprise at how many people rage at you in Total War games when you take advantage of a hill.

[alucardtnuoc]

"Noob tubes are cheap"
"Camping is cheap"
"X is cheap"

Someone out there will think using something is cheap, regardless of what it is. Shotguns in MW2, cheap. Snipers in Css, cheap. Needed two people to kill someone in a MoBA, cheap.

But, none of those are against the rules, so feel free to use them.

[endersblade]

After reading through 5 pages of this, I really get the feeling that a lot of you are confusing cheating and exploiting with cheap tactics. There's quite the difference.

Anyway. It depends on the situation to me. Are you in a tourney or some sort of competition? If the game allows you to do it (without using glitches), then by all means, go to town. Is it a friendly game between friends? Then don't be a dick and play 'fair'. The two examples I like to use are Mortal Kombat 1 and Soul Calibur 3. In MK1, with Scorpion, I was undefeated in the arcades. I had the timing down to throw the spear, upper cut, and get the spear back out in perfect timing where my opponent never got the chance to fight back. In SC3, I did a similar thing with the Scythe weapon, picking them up and slamming them around over and over again and they never could do anything about it. However, if I was just playing friends, I wouldn't do that sort of thing. There's no fun in it for anyone.

I've never played any of the FPS online games like CS or COD, so I can't attest to any of the cheap tactics people use in those games. But if the point of the match you are currently playing is to win against people you really care nothing about, or are going for some sort of trophy or something, fuck it, camp the shit out of those lanes. Just have a little honor when it comes to playing with friends and everyone will have a lot more fun.

[Vasarr]

This kinda, if the most crude tactic is the most effective, then something went wrong at the stage of development.

For example in fighting games, if the easiest and safest way to win is to spam quick jab button because the attack animates faster than the recovery animation of the opponent, then why would a player try flashy and risky combos that can be broken or dodged and leave him open to counterattack? And then why the game developers didn't notice this loophole?

Also some online games tend to "patch" cheap tactics if they're considered detrimental to the game balance, which is exactly what the game company should do assuming it's a game with constant patches and not fire-and-forget product. Example: proxy farming in LOL, got nerfed several times to stop being an effective tactic. If something isn't effective, people will stop using it.

Can't really say much about the sub-topic of the debate which is camping in shooters, because I don't play shooters.

So the game devs should just spend the money and time on patches? just to fix cheap tactics, so that people like you wont abuse them? are you for real? they have to spend so much money to patch things, it is not free. You want them to spend so much money, just because some people on video games today are a**holes with no respect for other players? Gamer's true gamer's are people who play for a challenge, and are rewarded when they over come that challenge. people like you need every little advantage you can to even stand up to a true gamer. It is like playing cards, you would pick counting cards in poker over playing like you should? there is no written law against counting cards, but it is frowned upon. Gaming today is so big that it is almost a sport, but the allot of the players today are self centered, a**holes who need to learn how to play, and hone there skills at what ever game there playing. Not just look for the "easy" way out. All people like you do is cripple gaming economy's making it so no one wants to even try the game, there are so many games where everyone but people like you quit, cause they were sick of it. An game company's have even lost out on money because of players like you, ruining games to the point you have to play with "cheap" tactics or not at all forcing the company to pay money to patch it, again an again an again until they say f*** it and give up trying to stop you. You people are not gamer's and you will never be gamer's as long as you "handicap" your way through your games. Maybe they should add servers for handicapped players like you, that need a crutch to be any good. (this coming from a disabled person.)

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Read the part about the scrub and you have your answer. This is pretty much applicable to any game

"The scrub would take great issue with this statement for he usually believes that he is playing to win, but he is bound up by an intricate construct of fictitious rules that prevent him from ever truly competing. These made-up rules vary from game to game, of course, but their character remains constant. In Street Fighter, for example, the scrub labels a wide variety of tactics and situations "cheap.""

edit: lol wow this is old I posted the same link some months ago already

First off i do not think you understand what a scrub is, because there are many meanings for it. Secondly the whole fictitious rules that you are speaking of, are rules that have been in multiplayer gaming sense probably before you played games. Any old school gamer would look down on you, saying that you need to learn how to play properly. Because unlike you gamer's are not A**holes, they care about not only there own fun but the fun of others. Why because basically the golden rule. I do not want others ruining my fun with there "exploits" so i do not ruin other peoples fun by using said exploits. There is a reason why mutliplayer games used to have a thing called "handicapped" it was for people like you that sucked at the game. Believe it or not video gaming is just like everything else in this world, Practice makes you better. But people like you start using tactic's that are frowned upon, and then more and more start to use that tactic, until ether A the company has enough money, or it has effected the game greatly and they patch it. Or B the company cannot afford to pay to patch it, and the game population dies out expect for the people using that tactic. You play without honor, and without care that everyone that sees you playing thinks "oh my god this guy sucks at the game". You just take your hallow victory thinking it makes you better than everyone else, when in reality you're not a winner. People who win in front of crowds by playing the way you do, get nothing but boos. You're a disgusting worthless tic sucking the life from the gaming community just to stroke your small pathetic ego.

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I really think that people who support cheap "anything to win" tactics should just stop for a second and look at what COD has become.


Then continue with what ever BS defense they have to say.

Ps.
Those of us with a brain know if every game was played with 50%+ of the players on it using cheap "anything to win", tactics every game would be what COD is now.

[Halicia]

Cheapest tactic in videogames ?

Save & Reload.

Who'd have thought that bundling an 'undo button' into a game would make it so much easier.

[Graeham]

That is not particularly true, as others pointed out there are always many servers on which you can get banned for cheap tactics and sometimes it spreads among the mainstream and you'll end up with 95% of the servers out there having rules against cheap tactics.

Which is a great thing in many cases since at the end of the day it's a game - and it's meant for the sake of one's enjoyment. A level playing field is an excellent compromise and allows for mutual enjoyment which is a lot more beneficial to any community than one-sided battles. A lot of people simply don't want to spend a good portion of their free time being subjected to borderline abuse.

[sarcolopter]

Of course. But if you're not in it for the gameplay, and are just in it for winning no matter what, I don't see the point in playing. Maybe it's just me.

The point is to win. Obviously.

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After reading through 5 pages of this, I really get the feeling that a lot of you are confusing cheating and exploiting with cheap tactics. There's quite the difference.

Anyway. It depends on the situation to me. Are you in a tourney or some sort of competition? If the game allows you to do it (without using glitches), then by all means, go to town. Is it a friendly game between friends? Then don't be a dick and play 'fair'. The two examples I like to use are Mortal Kombat 1 and Soul Calibur 3. In MK1, with Scorpion, I was undefeated in the arcades. I had the timing down to throw the spear, upper cut, and get the spear back out in perfect timing where my opponent never got the chance to fight back. In SC3, I did a similar thing with the Scythe weapon, picking them up and slamming them around over and over again and they never could do anything about it. However, if I was just playing friends, I wouldn't do that sort of thing. There's no fun in it for anyone.

I've never played any of the FPS online games like CS or COD, so I can't attest to any of the cheap tactics people use in those games. But if the point of the match you are currently playing is to win against people you really care nothing about, or are going for some sort of trophy or something, fuck it, camp the shit out of those lanes. Just have a little honor when it comes to playing with friends and everyone will have a lot more fun.

If you aren't modifying the game or otherwise gaining an external advantage, you are playing fair. Everything else is in your imagination. If honor doesn't affect your chances of winning, it isn't relevant to a competition.

[Ghostile]

The point is to win. Obviously.

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If you aren't modifying the game or otherwise gaining an external advantage, you are playing fair. Everything else is in your imagination. If honor doesn't affect your chances of winning, it isn't relevant to a competition.

Damn, you could have waited for a few months and make it a 10 year necropost.

[Zuben]

I play Overwatch 2, which due to the large hero roster is asymmetric and therefore balanced in a way that cheap tactics effectively don't exist (unless Blizz has flubbed the balance); you can get through anything with the right comp to counter what the enemy is throwing at you (assuming there is no considerable skill difference between players, which there often is due to the fickle nature of matchmaking and easy access to smurfing).

Though I would say there are cheap heroes. Some are just far easier to learn & master and more versatile than others, so maining them kinda makes me respect the player less. E.g. Hanzo is easy mode in that way, but to play Widow as effectively takes far more skill and learning. When I see a highly effective Widow, friend or foe, I tend to give my endorsement to them out of sheer respect. Never ever to a Hanzo player.

EDIT: Ah, a necro. Oh well, more games have come out since, offering new perspectives to the topic.

[Zenfoldor]

In no world is this sentence to be taken seriously:

I would have won but I needed to preserve my family honor, so I lost on purpose.

These however, are pretty good:

You play to win the game.