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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Libertarian View Post
    What this list isn't even right at all. First off tier 15? We're going to tier 16, so expect 300-350k dps in BiS. Second, these numbers are less than Tier 15 BiS. Like for example I sim at 240k right now.
    From what it looks like, these numbers are with T15h gear but with all the 5.4 patch changes to classes. No need for T16H BiS numbers at this very moment.

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Puerto View Post
    From what it looks like, these numbers are with T15h gear but with all the 5.4 patch changes to classes. No need for T16H BiS numbers at this very moment.
    I agree. These numbers does look like that. But i dont thing that chart is accurate on top of that.

    1. Rogues will be a little down on the chart. Reason is, as you said and i agree, its used current T15H gear and latest PTR changes. Combined overall rogue damage buff with current gear is setting them high on chart, however, in one of latest PTR patches rogue's 4P T15 bonus has been nerfed down to 15% lower cost of spells during shadow blades (was/currently is 40%).

    2. DKs... From what i heard/read or manage to find DW frost is below 2h, not so far, but its below. Large number of people did the tests with DKs copying them over to PTR and equiping T16 placeholder items. Overall, from what i did manage to gather both set bonuses favor Frost 2H over DW and UH, that is it has highest %DPS gain with 2H frost.

    3. Same thing is with monks and reworked mastery which is on PTR similar to current T15 4p bonus, they shouldnt be ranked so low, maybe its diminishing returns, that is mastery cant proc from set proc and vice versa, making 4pc bonus useless and simply gimping their damage. It would be far to much to allow proc on proc, it would be far unpredistable.

    This is a bit old, but it looks like its a bit more accurate:
    http://www.totemspot.com/vb/showthre...ll=1#post85176

  3. #43
    The Lightbringer Tehterokkar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eno View Post
    ~snip~
    Reason why Frost 1h seems to be doing bad is because in T16, Frost wants to avoid haste gear, with the CD reduction trinket and 4pc(I think?), DW Frost Rune regen will be insane. So you can stack Mastery(which is a lot better than strength for gemming) and enjoy super DPS.

    WW Monks have been a disaster this entire expansion, they have no DPS CDs and their Mastery has been re-worked each tier.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Tehterokkar View Post
    WW Monks have been a disaster this entire expansion, they have no DPS CDs and their Mastery has been re-worked each tier.
    I agree, even if they are quite dominant in Arena teams and PvE, i must say that they are extremely boring to play. Seeing/Hearing that they are now even bigger disaster, its a good thing that i kept my alt SMF warr and DW Frost geared up. Ill prolly switch to one of those two, havent decided yet.

  5. #45
    Dreadlord vmagik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eno View Post
    2. DKs... From what i heard/read or manage to find DW frost is below 2h, not so far, but its below. Large number of people did the tests with DKs copying them over to PTR and equiping T16 placeholder items. Overall, from what i did manage to gather both set bonuses favor Frost 2H over DW and UH, that is it has highest %DPS gain with 2H frost.
    http://www.totemspot.com/vb/showthre...ll=1#post85176
    DW sims higher now (on the PTR)... In fact it was so much higher that it was recently nerfed on the PTR from a 30% increased howling blast buff to 15%. It still sims highest in t15BiS and, by the looks of it that will continue into t16. Add a passive cleave into the mix and you have a potential winner.

    Unholy is always devalued in sims due to not choosing the correct time to snapshot stats with trinkets like feather or rage - obviously those trinkets will be disappearing in t16 so it won't be so much of an issue (though choosing when it apply diseases with things like pots/synapse springs/fallen crusader proc/trinket str procs will still push it above its "simmed potential"). Midwinter's recent PTR testing has still shown Unholy able to beat DW on some encounters.

    2H will be strong single target but, without DWs mastery stacking or Unholy's "strong dots" (Unholy will be gemming/reforging for mastery>crit>haste or crit>mastery>haste this tier) it will naturally fall behind on multidot/cleave friendly fights (which is quite a few in tier16).

    Single target's looking to be:

    DW
    2H
    Unholy

    AOE/Cleave friendly:

    DW
    Unholy
    2H

    Multi-dot (out-of-cleave range/council/protectors-style):

    Unholy
    DW
    2H
    Last edited by vmagik; 2013-09-04 at 04:09 PM.
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  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by nVIDIA View Post
    Build 17331
    Why in the world do you link tier 15 numbers when clearly the OP asked for 5.4 (aka tier 16)? FYI balance druids are simming around 379k with tier 16 BiS (see discussion here http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...-T16H-BiS-List).

  7. #47
    A list for 5.4 dps with ilvl522 pvp gear?

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by land View Post
    Why in the world do you link tier 15 numbers when clearly the OP asked for 5.4 (aka tier 16)? FYI balance druids are simming around 379k with tier 16 BiS (see discussion here http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...-T16H-BiS-List).
    Because 5.4 with T15H gear (a mix actually of T15H/T16N/T16H, but you get the point) is what's revelant for progression. By the time you're in T16H bis you've finished progressing already and therefore damage doesn't matter.
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  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by vmagik View Post
    DW sims higher now (on the PTR)... In fact it was so much higher that it was recently nerfed on the PTR from a 30% increased howling blast buff to 15%.

    ...
    It actually got buffed another 15% on September 4th patch (the day of your post). They now rank way higher, but still T16 set bonuses favor 2H style of gameplay. Im not quite sure again about DW Frost sims that ppl are posting since, as i heard, if you hit certain AP numbers you can drop Soul Reaper from execute phase. Its aprox 2-3k DPS loss.

    With BiS trinkets and with gains that DW Frost, after some ilvl treshold, you can pretty much stop worrying about Rune Regen at some point, which is something i dont like actually. They end up more warrior like, focusing only on dumping RP pool fast enough with MasterFrost gameplay.
    I do welcome buffs, but i somehow see them performing far to good, they will probably get nerfed at some point.

  10. #50
    Dreadlord vmagik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eno View Post
    It actually got buffed another 15% on September 4th patch (the day of your post). They now rank way higher, but still T16 set bonuses favor 2H style of gameplay. Im not quite sure again about DW Frost sims that ppl are posting since, as i heard, if you hit certain AP numbers you can drop Soul Reaper from execute phase. Its aprox 2-3k DPS loss.

    With BiS trinkets and with gains that DW Frost, after some ilvl treshold, you can pretty much stop worrying about Rune Regen at some point, which is something i dont like actually. They end up more warrior like, focusing only on dumping RP pool fast enough with MasterFrost gameplay.
    I do welcome buffs, but i somehow see them performing far to good, they will probably get nerfed at some point.
    That wasn't an additional 15% buff, that was a tooltip fix to reflect the change from the original 30% howling blast buff to a 15% one... The very reason it was changed was due to the dropping of obliterate/sr from the rotation all together at relatively low ilvls.

    So technically it has already been "nerfed" on the PTR (if you consider it a nerf anyway - still a buff from live)
    Last edited by vmagik; 2013-09-06 at 06:57 AM.
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  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by vmagik View Post
    That wasn't an additional 15% buff, that was a tooltip fix to reflect the change from the original 30% howling blast buff to a 15% one...
    Dint know that, i havent played my PTR DK recently as im orientated on preparing my charrs for patch, ty for update, i mainly keep updated with MMOC patchnotes and the one from Sept 4th said that HB was buffed, not that its a tooltip fix so i ended up misslead

    Quote Originally Posted by vmagik View Post
    The very reason it was changed was due to the dropping of obliterate/sr from the rotation all together at relatively low ilvls.
    SR is, unfortunately, still dropped out of rotation, but on higher iLvl's.
    Just by doing napkin math i see them far to good to stay that way for a long time. I mean, high default haste from gear they will forget about runes. Large chunk of haste will be reforged to mastery, with MoFW buffed to 30% and on top of that buff to FS and HB with all that mastery.. they will hit like trucks and, with natural cleave trough HB at NO COST, they will cleave better than almost all classes. Somehow.. i see A LOT of DKs incomming, once again FotM class. :/

    For me.. ill prolly move from my WW monk to my SMF warrior, maybe even on Feral/shaman/rogue.. my last option is actually my main alt, DK. I like "catch up" system in 5.4 so ill have some time to test them and decide with which will i play. Its not DPS factor that im after, but more of "fun" factor, WWs were fun, but without any raid utility, seeing them positioned so low on charts (even if i know that these charts are everything but accurate and final, but hearing overal bad words about them in 5.4 from PTR tests) i see no point in playing it any more. WW's just lost their only reason to have them in raids, high sustained DPS.
    We will see how the things will play out, so far only DKs look far to good to stay that way.

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by land View Post
    Why in the world do you link tier 15 numbers when clearly the OP asked for 5.4 (aka tier 16)? FYI balance druids are simming around 379k with tier 16 BiS (see discussion here http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...-T16H-BiS-List).
    Why on earth would anyone be interested in numbers at the end of the tier? People need to see the numbers they will go into the tier with. They need to know the DPS for progression fights not at the end of the Tier.

    AKA why 5.4 mechanics/numbers and 5.2 gear. You don't magically get BiS gear as soon as the patch starts.-

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ichifails View Post
    Why on earth would anyone be interested in numbers at the end of the tier? People need to see the numbers they will go into the tier with. They need to know the DPS for progression fights not at the end of the Tier.

    AKA why 5.4 mechanics/numbers and 5.2 gear. You don't magically get BiS gear as soon as the patch starts.-
    Why would you be interested in old gear.. The first few bosses are easy enough to get passed if you are fully geared (thats what you sim).. there is no dps check for full geared and upgraded raid groups.. So in the first week you will be getting new gear so the old sims are useless.. Better look to the future what the max potential is for your class then dwell in the past..

  14. #54
    Moderator Nobleshield's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chown View Post
    Why would you be interested in old gear.. The first few bosses are easy enough to get passed if you are fully geared (thats what you sim).. there is no dps check for full geared and upgraded raid groups.. So in the first week you will be getting new gear so the old sims are useless.. Better look to the future what the max potential is for your class then dwell in the past..
    If you ask me you should check both; with T15 so you know what to expect going in, and T16 so you know what your capabilities are. It's stupid to always just assume BiS everything because not everyone gets BiS everything, and the constant focus on "In ideal conditions with BiS gear you can do X" is meaningless for most people.
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