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  1. #361
    It has to someone obvious because those are the ones who got the build up. I wish Nazgrim could survive the siege. My favorite orc ever.

  2. #362
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kittyvicious View Post
    Umm...it's not clever at all. It's just a pretty matter-of-fact statement. The motivating factors for everything in the Wacraft universe since WC3 hasn't simply been a war between Orcs and Humans. I'm sorry that you can somehow overlook 99% of what we do in these games to believe it's about a war, but umm...ok. I don't know what to tell you at this point.

    Somewhat, as in there is always that underlying tension. But how often do we actually fight eachother? Like how many world important events are predicated by that war? Almost zero.

    It goes like this:

    -Evil thing shows up to destroy all life
    -Both sides either alone or together fight it off
    -Petty squabbling and land swaps resume.

    That's pretty much it. Orcs vs. Humans didn't create a Lich King, didn't make a Deathwing, didn't sunder the world, didn't make the maelstrom, didn't make Ragnaros, most certainly 100% didn't bring the biggest bad of all bads looking for Azeroth. That honor belongs to the Elves.

    So please tell me how any rational person could think we've been playing Warcraft: Orcs vs Human 7 this whole time.
    You do know WC3 had all this stuff too. But the HEART of Warcraft is a huge faction of Humans who dominate the world, fighting against a huge faction of Orcs who are immigrants and occasionally working together to bring down big baddies. But they don't even do it together. They do it in like parallel universes. Who actually killed the LK? Deathwing? A mix of the two? The alliance? The horde? Open to interpretation? The only thing that's confirmed is that humans don't like orcs and orcs dont like humans. Night elves probably don't hate tauren, the tauren probably dont hate the gnomes, hell the goblins dont hate the gnomes...etc.

  3. #363
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    Quote Originally Posted by Faroth View Post
    So, um....just out of curiosity, we should be lapping up Star Wars: Episodes 1-3 as the greatest films we could have hoped for since Lucas gave us Star Wars in the first place?
    So, because the later start wars movies were not as popular as the originals you think Lucas should be forever condemned by the fanbase for everything he's done?
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  4. #364
    Quote Originally Posted by Dragoncurry View Post
    You do know WC3 had all this stuff too. But the HEART of Warcraft is a huge faction of Humans who dominate the world, fighting against a huge faction of Orcs who are immigrants and occasionally working together to bring down big baddies. But they don't even do it together. They do it in like parallel universes. Who actually killed the LK? Deathwing? A mix of the two? The alliance? The horde? Open to interpretation? The only thing that's confirmed is that humans don't like orcs and orcs dont like humans. Night elves probably don't hate tauren, the tauren probably dont hate the gnomes, hell the goblins dont hate the gnomes...etc.
    There's so much more though.

    Night Elves and Ors.

    Forsaken and Humans.

    Worgen and Humans

    Gnomes and Goblins (though more rivalry than outright hate.)

    Blood Elves and Draenei

    Blood Elves and Humans (See Garithos and purge of dalaran)

    There is so much more hate to spread around than just orcs and humans, in fact the main races orcs have been attacking recently to spark this war were night elves, and in twilight highlands dwarves. Humans vs Orcs is way over simplifying it even if every race on one faction doesn't have a personal hatred for EVERY race on the other.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    So, because the later start wars movies were not as popular as the originals you think Lucas should be forever condemned by the fanbase for everything he's done?
    Don't know how valid it is but I've heard that episodes 4/5/6 were good because many of lucas' bad ideas were kept in check by others, and it would have been vastly different if he had the creative control he had in 1/2/3. That said, take it with a grain of salt as it's only hearsay.
    "If you have to believe it on faith, you have no reason to believe it at all.” Aron Ra

  5. #365
    Quote Originally Posted by Florena View Post
    Actually the scourge's first target was the nerubians wasn't it?
    Yes, they were the ones close-by. But then he targeted the Kingdom that was the center of the Alliance.

  6. #366
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    Quote Originally Posted by Balager View Post
    Did I just shatter your view of World of Warcraft? I hope so. Based on how you argue you probably want Legion invasion and Tinkers.
    Although wow lore will never reach the complexity of the Elder Scrolls, it is a lot less simple than you would like to believe.
    No you didn't. The reason the largest presence is the Forsaken is because the Orcs came and ravaged the Eastern Kingdoms and DECIMATED Lordran (sp?) in the second war. So there is deep resentment, not for the Forsaken who basically are the homeless squatters, but for the Orcs that did that shit in the first place. Furthermore, there is a deep resentment from the Horde because the internment camps were littered through that area. What deep history do we have with the Forsaken? Oh she moved in? Okay...

    You're right I don't remember the Orcs and the Humans coming together. Because THEY NEVER WILL (well maybe now if theres a corny council shit). Just because the last raid was Sunwell, how many of the playerbase SAW sunwell? All I remember is how I was in tarren mill, AN UNDEAD base, fighting against a bunch of orcs (most played race for the horde back then I think).

    No I don't mean the Ulduar Patch trailer, I mean the end of the raid of Undercity event where Thrall, Garrosh, Varian and Jaina had a standoff. Uh...Varian letting Saurfang go wasn't deep? Jaina crying because her king didn't choose wanton violence and let a father carry his son away when we coulda denied him like the dwarf wanted wasn't humans and orcs? Did Magni give Varian lip? Fuck no he didn't, and he's badass as fuck. plot armor.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Florena View Post
    There's so much more though.

    Night Elves and Ors.

    Forsaken and Humans.

    Worgen and Humans

    Gnomes and Goblins (though more rivalry than outright hate.)

    Blood Elves and Draenei

    Blood Elves and Humans (See Garithos and purge of dalaran)

    There is so much more hate to spread around than just orcs and humans, in fact the main races orcs have been attacking recently to spark this war were night elves, and in twilight highlands dwarves. Humans vs Orcs is way over simplifying it even if every race on one faction doesn't have a personal hatred for EVERY race on the other.

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    Don't know how valid it is but I've heard that episodes 4/5/6 were good because many of lucas' bad ideas were kept in check by others, and it would have been vastly different if he had the creative control he had in 1/2/3. That said, take it with a grain of salt as it's only hearsay.
    OMFG, you people. I am not contesting that OTHER CONFLICTS do not exist. I am saying they pale in comparison to the main conflict between the Orcs and the Humans that is always pushed to the front. Look at the MOP trailer for christs sake.

    No I don't want legion invasion and tinkers. I want Horde to have only shamans, I prefer alliance to have only paladins, I like it when not every single person in the world has a stun or a silence, I like it when people play the class they like and not a flavor of the month of who is the most OP, I like LFR, I like what they did with heroic raiding, I am not a "OH TBH WAS THE BEST" fool, I dislike the lack of community based on not needing to go out as much, the inability to fight people who afk on flying mounts outside the instance, ETC. Don't be so quick to generalize.
    Last edited by Dragoncurry; 2013-08-23 at 09:24 PM.

  7. #367
    Quote Originally Posted by Dragoncurry View Post
    No you didn't. The reason the largest presence is the Forsaken is because the Orcs came and ravaged the Eastern Kingdoms and DECIMATED Lordran (sp?) in the second war. So there is deep resentment, not for the Forsaken who basically are the homeless squatters, but for the Orcs that did that shit in the first place. Furthermore, there is a deep resentment from the Horde because the internment camps were littered through that area. What deep history do we have with the Forsaken? Oh she moved in? Okay...
    No... Just no...

    The Kingdom of Lordaeron was barely attacked, Doomhammer moved right to the Siege of Capital City. Lordaeron was the strongest human nation (likely of all races' nation) after the Second War.

    The Forsaken are the people of Lordaeron, that's their story.

    And stop using PvP as lore. It's not, the orcs have no presence on Tarren Mill.

  8. #368
    I consider Vol'jin to be the most likely candidate, with Lor'themar as the runner up.

    Baine seems too young and too new of a character, and he hasn't had much attention in WoW.

    Rexxar, although he would be one of my top preferences, has not had any attention in WoW since BC and does not appear to show up in Siege, so it's extremely unlikely he will be Warchief.

    Sylvanas can be disqualified for obvious reasons. She is really only looking out for herself.

    Saurfang is pretty old, and IIRC this was what disqualified him from succeeding Thrall. That, or just not wanting the job. He has also not been around in MoP, though he does make an appearance in Siege. Eitrigg I think can be disqualified for similar reasons. Not really around and also very old, and also hasn't been characterized much in WoW itself.

    Lor'themar I wouldn't consider likely. He's been characterized quite nicely in 5.1 and 5.2, and even hinted he might take up the mantle of Warchief out of necessity, but his people are on the other continent and from what I understand he feels it's his burden to lead them through bad times and protect them.

    Vol'jin, on the other hand, has been built up quite a lot this expansion and is the leader of the rebellion, so it makes political sense that he would end up leader of the Horde. He has also been around since WCIII, and is the racial leader of the first race to join Thrall's Horde. Not to mention the trolls also make their home in Durotar and have their own valley in Orgrimmar, so he would still be near his people.

  9. #369
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tauror View Post
    No... Just no...

    The Kingdom of Lordaeron was barely attacked, Doomhammer moved right to the Siege of Capital City. Lordaeron was the strongest human nation (likely of all races' nation) after the Second War.

    The Forsaken are the people of Lordaeron, that's their story.

    And stop using PvP as lore. It's not, the orcs have no presence on Tarren Mill.
    MY FAULT, I fucked that up. It was Lothar's country that was fucked up not Lorderon. Lorderon was fucked up by the plague in TFT, and then their people was rallied by Sylvannas MY BADDDDD. The core of it isn't forsaken though man, it's just another human conflict. And that's because Sylvanas is a ruthless high elf leading ex humans.
    Last edited by Dragoncurry; 2013-08-23 at 09:29 PM.

  10. #370
    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    So, because the later start wars movies were not as popular as the originals you think Lucas should be forever condemned by the fanbase for everything he's done?
    I think the fanbase had a right to voice their discontent and be vocal in their wishes that Lucas not man the helm for future Star Wars movies. Which is what happened, and they had every right to do so. Which is also what they're doing with Metzen's handling of lore in some, or perhaps many, cases/plot lines.

    Likewise, however, Lucas had the right to ignore them just as Metzen does. But if fans continue to be displeased and voice their displeasure, or even disgust, it should be no surprise that they do so. They shouldn't fawn over everything the creator does just because he did something good before.

    The first movie/book/game in a series is not forever a gold stamp of perfection and praise for everything afterwards simply because the first one was great.
    Last edited by Faroth; 2013-08-23 at 09:32 PM.
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  11. #371
    Quote Originally Posted by whathump View Post
    I consider Vol'jin to be the most likely candidate, with Lor'themar as the runner up.

    Baine seems too young and too new of a character, and he hasn't had much attention in WoW.

    Rexxar, although he would be one of my top preferences, has not had any attention in WoW since BC and does not appear to show up in Siege, so it's extremely unlikely he will be Warchief.

    Sylvanas can be disqualified for obvious reasons. She is really only looking out for herself.

    Saurfang is pretty old, and IIRC this was what disqualified him from succeeding Thrall. That, or just not wanting the job. He has also not been around in MoP, though he does make an appearance in Siege. Eitrigg I think can be disqualified for similar reasons. Not really around and also very old, and also hasn't been characterized much in WoW itself.

    Lor'themar I wouldn't consider likely. He's been characterized quite nicely in 5.1 and 5.2, and even hinted he might take up the mantle of Warchief out of necessity, but his people are on the other continent and from what I understand he feels it's his burden to lead them through bad times and protect them.

    Vol'jin, on the other hand, has been built up quite a lot this expansion and is the leader of the rebellion, so it makes political sense that he would end up leader of the Horde. He has also been around since WCIII, and is the racial leader of the first race to join Thrall's Horde. Not to mention the trolls also make their home in Durotar and have their own valley in Orgrimmar, so he would still be near his people.
    Sums up my thoughts. Baine and Rexxar 'could' have been developed into the role, especially Baine after Tides of War, but instead in game Baine's only had a small role and Rexxar none at all since BC. Long time fans remember him but you can't put a 'good old day's character into a position like Warchief without giving him development for new players.

    Saurfang is the same for me. IMO even in his age he could take it up if given the proper story.

    Lor'themar too focused on belves, plus a belf is a bigger stretch than tauren or troll for horde leadership.

    Sylvannus/Gallywix...hahaha no.

    Nazgrim didn't get enough development, and is now a boss. Drek'thar's senile and absent.

    That just leaves Thrall and Vol'jin imo. On the one hand, Thrall would placate the 'omg guis it HAS to be an orc because it's never been a not orc before' angle, but it feels like Vol'jin's being built up for the role more, talking about how the horde is family and leading the rebellion. If it's not one of those two I'll be shocked.
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  12. #372
    Quote Originally Posted by Archangel Tyrael View Post
    According to the lore, it takes the might of the Alliance combined with all of the Horde to bring down Garrosh's horde.

    I'd say he's pretty strong, and that that shows how strong Orcs are.
    He didn't build that by himself. Nor did the orcs.

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  13. #373
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    Quote Originally Posted by Faroth View Post
    I think the fanbase had a right to voice their discontent and be vocal in their wishes that Lucas not man the helm for future Star Wars movies. Which is what happened, and they had every right to do so. Which is also what they're doing with Metzen's handling of lore in some, or perhaps many, cases/plot lines.

    Likewise, however, Lucas had the right to ignore them just as Metzen does. But if fans continue to be displeased and voice their displeasure, or even disgust, it should be no surprise that they do so. They shouldn't fawn over everything the creator does just because he did something good before.

    The first movie/book/game in a series is not forever a gold stamp of perfection and praise for everything afterwards simply because the first one was great.
    so you think all writers should stop making anything without fanbase giving it 100% approval?

    I'm sorry but I've always hated how uncreative fans voice so much opinion at writers and creators about there ideas to the point they think they are the ones who came with with the idea.

    Having an opinion of something is one thing. Believing yourselves to be the writers for a work of fiction when all your doing is reading it and criticizing it is just bloated self opinion. No writer or director should should ever take anything more then an thought of how something will react with a fanbase, and go with it, take into account what the best reaction should be, instead of trying to peddle to every single suggestion thrown at them.

    Don't tell me you'd be able to handle something like that. don't tell me you'd be able to make a fictional world with many interconnected stories, and actually listen to every single fanboy out there what they want to happen. You Can Not make that work, its impossible, all you literally can do it take what they say with a grain of salt.
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  14. #374
    Quote Originally Posted by chrisisvacant View Post
    He didn't build that by himself. Nor did the orcs.
    Plus using the heart as a weapon, and the fact it's a highly fortified city fortress meaning assaulting it isn't easy.
    "If you have to believe it on faith, you have no reason to believe it at all.” Aron Ra

  15. #375
    Quote Originally Posted by Florena View Post
    That just leaves Thrall and Vol'jin imo. On the one hand, Thrall would placate the 'omg guis it HAS to be an orc because it's never been a not orc before' angle, but it feels like Vol'jin's being built up for the role more, talking about how the horde is family and leading the rebellion. If it's not one of those two I'll be shocked.
    I'd even consider Thrall unlikely, partly because it seems like his time as warchief has passed and now it's time for him to settle down in his old age. And mainly the point that he appointed Garrosh himself, so it would no doubt cause controversy among the Alliance (and even some Horde factions, maybe) who might blame him for Garrosh's rule. The last thing the Horde needs right now is to piss of the Alliance more in its current position.

  16. #376
    Quote Originally Posted by Florena View Post
    Plus using the heart as a weapon, and the fact it's a highly fortified city fortress meaning assaulting it isn't easy.
    And remember, the Divine Bell, which was procured by Heroes and Elves.

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  17. #377
    Quote Originally Posted by chrisisvacant View Post
    And remember, the Divine Bell, which was procured by Heroes and Elves.
    That was nullified by Anduin and then destroyed by Garrosh in 5.1.

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    Quote Originally Posted by whathump View Post
    I'd even consider Thrall unlikely, partly because it seems like his time as warchief has passed and now it's time for him to settle down in his old age. And mainly the point that he appointed Garrosh himself, so it would no doubt cause controversy among the Alliance (and even some Horde factions, maybe) who might blame him for Garrosh's rule. The last thing the Horde needs right now is to piss of the Alliance more in its current position.
    Thrall is not old, and he doesn't seem unpopular for having chosen Garrosh in lore, though he does consider it a mistake on his end. That said I hope it's Vol'jin but Thrall wouldn't surprise me at all. If nothing else I could see him as orc racial leader.
    "If you have to believe it on faith, you have no reason to believe it at all.” Aron Ra

  18. #378
    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    oh my god. You can't even see it can you?

    The blood elves that willingly followed Kael'thas are in the same school as the orcs that now willingly follow Garrosh. The blood elves have nothing to suggest they know better about leading or not screwing up anymore then orcs are.

    And given how the blood elves were considering going back to the alliance, who in the right mind wants a blood elves leader whos loyalties would extend to the hordes rival faction on a whim? No.. thats just beyond ridiculous.
    The Blood Elves that willingly followed Kael'Thas... played Warcraft III TFT much?

    There were NO OTHER Blood Elves. Every damn elve and their mothers ventured after their prince - their only bastion of hope and beloved leader - into the Draenor. The separation between the "good" and the "bad" Blood Elves happened as far as in late BC.

    And by the way, try to count the orcs that are not "Garrosh followers". I'm sure you won't run out of fingers.

  19. #379
    Quote Originally Posted by Florena View Post
    That was nullified by Anduin and then destroyed by Garrosh in 5.1.
    Correct - but the theft was a feat that Garrosh did not complete himself.

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  20. #380
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    Quote Originally Posted by Okacz View Post
    The Blood Elves that willingly followed Kael'Thas... played Warcraft III TFT much?

    There were NO OTHER Blood Elves. Every damn elve and their mothers ventured after their prince - their only bastion of hope and beloved leader - into the Draenor. The separation between the "good" and the "bad" Blood Elves happened as far as in late BC.

    And by the way, try to count the orcs that are not "Garrosh followers". I'm sure you won't run out of fingers.
    I don't have to, the games going to do that for me after 5.4 when there orc population will be shown to have not decreased from what it was prior to mists, and we're be told the only orcs we killed were blackrock, dragonmaw and some random ones, well the rest come in after.
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