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  1. #1

    What happened to alliance vs horde? Is garrosh really that bad?

    When CATA ended I remember how the devs talked about how there wasn't enough horde vs alliance and that we would see more of it in Panda. Not only that but that it would also be the main focus of the expansion. Other than the first patch I haven't seen much horde vs alliance as the main story line. But I also feel like this is a WOW villain issue. In order for us as players to be involved the villain has to be epic. And the way they become epic is so grand that alliance and horde have to put their battle on the back burner in order to stop the big baddie. So do you guys feel that this will just continue to be a recurring theme, where alliance and horde have to put their battle aside in order to fight the big bad?


    As a horde player I don't see what garrosh did as the ultimate must die that blizz made it out to be Pre-expansion release. Yes he alienated races other then orcs but I feel like that was a cheap way to go about turning the horde on him. As an Orc there should be no reason to hate him I feel. Thoughts?

  2. #2
    Field Marshal Rathnor The Flesher's Avatar
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    I feel like Blizz had tried to go that route, but thought it was too risky and decided against it. Garrosh had garnered a negative response from the customers so Blizzard did the sensible thing, from a business stand-point, and eliminated him as Warchief. In the end, the players want both the factions to be the good guys even if it should invalidate the war completely.

    You are absolutely correct in saying that in a world where there are legions of omnicidal demons, hordes of undead, death-cults who worship the Lovecraft-cast of evil gods there is not a single good reason for these people to be fighting each other. They sorta forgot the War in Warcraft.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by ggabboud View Post
    So do you guys feel that this will just continue to be a recurring theme, where alliance and horde have to put their battle aside in order to fight the big bad?
    That's pretty much what we have been doing in BC, Wrath, Cataclysm, and even now in MoP. No idea why Blizzard is such a huge fan of it, they continuously scream out "we like the concept of Humans vs Orcs", yet at the same time throw out the "we should work together for the greater good" card. I find it rather annoying, I really do not understand why they can't have it similarly to back in Classic, when you had the fights between the Horde and Alliance, and raid bosses on the side which did not require a team up...

    The world doesn't need to be in danger every single expansion, yet Blizzard seems to love the idea of it. >.<

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Rathnor The Flesher View Post
    I feel like Blizz had tried to go that route, but thought it was too risky and decided against it. Garrosh had garnered a negative response from the customers so Blizzard did the sensible thing, from a business stand-point, and eliminated him as Warchief. In the end, the players want both the factions to be the good guys even if it should invalidate the war completely.
    Wow, sorry, but that's hooey. They built up that character gradually since he first appeared in TBC and it was already clear in WotLK that they had this in mind with him.

    And I don't know where you guys have been the last months, but this expansion was very much about red vs. blue.

  5. #5
    Scarab Lord Shampro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chaozu View Post
    That's pretty much what we have been doing in BC, Wrath, Cataclysm, and even now in MoP. No idea why Blizzard is such a huge fan of it, they continuously scream out "we like the concept of Humans vs Orcs", yet at the same time throw out the "we should work together for the greater good" card. I find it rather annoying, I really do not understand why they can't have it similarly to back in Classic, when you had the fights between the Horde and Alliance, and raid bosses on the side which did not require a team up...

    The world doesn't need to be in danger every single expansion, yet Blizzard seems to love the idea of it. >.<
    Eh on the contrary, the story of this expac was mostly focused on implications and issues in pandaria, not the whole world, atleast not until Garrosh. So they infact did change things a bit this time around, and people appertantly dont give a shit about it because all they see or think is ''lulzpandas where is ma world is ending blizzwtf?'' They changed things a bit this time around, and im greatful for it, especially after the whole Deathwing ''ill burn your world'' thing that honestly didnt leave a good taste in my mouth. The World wasnt in danger this xpac, and atleast in the start all there was bitching from people who judge a book by its cover.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by JimmyHellfire View Post
    And I don't know where you guys have been the last months, but this expansion was very much about red vs. blue.
    Really? Haven't noticed. Pretty much all of the fighting is against the Mantid, the Sha, the Mogu, the Trolls, the Tauren cousins (whatever they are called). There were some fighting against the Alliance in the Jade Forest, then a bit more in Krasarang Wilds on max level. But aside from that, nothing really comes to mind.

    Heck, the fight in the Jade Forest that built up to be awesome was even interrupted by the Sha, the one would have been glorious moment thrown out the window to show what the emotions could do on Pandaria. /Meh

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Chaozu View Post
    fighting against the Mantid, the Sha, the Mogu, the Trolls, the Tauren cousins (whatever they are called)
    You'd rather kill just orcs/humans throughout the whole expansion?

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Shampro View Post
    Eh on the contrary, the story of this expac was mostly focused on implications and issues in pandaria, not the whole world, atleast not until Garrosh. So they infact did change things a bit this time around, and people appertantly dont give a shit about it because all they see or think is ''lulzpandas where is ma world is ending blizzwtf?'' They changed things a bit this time around, and im greatful for it, especially after the whole Deathwing ''ill burn your world'' thing that honestly didnt leave a good taste in my mouth. The World wasnt in danger this xpac, and atleast in the start all there was bitching from people who judge a book by its cover.
    I'll give you the fact that it wasn't about it from the beginning. But the Thunder King was supposedly a huge threat, the Sha was supposedly a huge threat, and now Garrosh. Granted the Horde and the Alliance didn't officially work together until now with SoO, but I find even that to be ridiculous. We shouldn't be working together at all, ever again. We are supposed to be sworn enemies.

    Wasn't Illidan, Arthas and Deathwing enough? Do we really still need to hold each others hands whilst at the same time plotting the others demise with the other? It gets tiresome.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JimmyHellfire View Post
    You'd rather kill just orcs/humans throughout the whole expansion?
    No, but I would like to have had more of it. This expansion was supposed to focus on the war between the Horde and the Alliance, yet we barely even clash at all with each other.

  9. #9
    Field Marshal Rathnor The Flesher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimmyHellfire View Post
    You'd rather kill just orcs/humans throughout the whole expansion?
    I think the issue he's trying to bring up is that there is not enough emphasis on the war and certainly not enough reason to perpetrate it. If the war doesn't make sense in the context then you don't care about it and some players are bothered by that. Had the expansion been more about reminding us why these guys are still fighting in the first place, with the PvE content as a backdrop or with faction-based PvE, it may make us care even a little that there are even factions and a war to begin with.

  10. #10
    actually I think Garrosh was the best thing that could've happened to Horde. remember the Horde under Thrall? they were such wussies and wankers, Garrosh ended that. but I guess the way they wrote his character was just bad.

    he could've been turned into a renegade character who wanted the Horde to be a dominant and equal faction to the Alliance. and to show the Alliance that the Horde is a strong but honorable side that will not hesitate to fight to keep it's ideals and protect it's allies.

    but instead they made him into a bloodthirsty brute with no aparent desire but to wage war and prove orc superiority.

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    I'm just wondering, why is it that almost 70% of all the suggested stories I read on the forums are actually waaaaay better than the stories that Blizzard writes? I mean... is finding a good story writer and having a group of good character developers THAT hard for a multi-billion dollar company???

  11. #11
    I am Murloc! Airwaves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ggabboud View Post
    As a horde player I don't see what garrosh did as the ultimate must die that blizz made it out to be Pre-expansion release. Yes he alienated races other then orcs but I feel like that was a cheap way to go about turning the horde on him. As an Orc there should be no reason to hate him I feel. Thoughts?
    Oh you have a reason. HE TRIED TO HAVE YOU ASSASSINATED ALONG SIDE VOL'JIN. If that couldn't turn you against him like this then they never will.

    Everybody conveniently forgets this when they try to say they like him.
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  12. #12
    Field Marshal Rathnor The Flesher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Airwaves View Post
    Oh you have a reason. HE TRIED TO HAVE YOU ASSASSINATED ALONG SIDE VOL'JIN. If that couldn't turn you against him like this then they never will.

    Everybody conveniently forgets this when they try to say they like him.
    Not everybody did, or wants to believe they did, that scenario. He only wanted you dead for aiding the enemy, if anything that only makes me respect him.

  13. #13
    The Patient Anguished's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rathnor The Flesher View Post
    Not everybody did, or wants to believe they did, that scenario. He only wanted you dead for aiding the enemy, if anything that only makes me respect him.
    Except, you had no idea that Vol'jin was the 'enemy'. Back then, that was the beginning of the whole ordeal. Yes, Vol'jin had always opposed Garrosh from the start of his reign as Warchief. And still, either way, he still tried to kill you, and still tried to kill one of the racial leaders from his faction. There's no respect to be had there, it's just backstabbing, quite literally.

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  14. #14
    TBH, he's still not done a lot worse than Sylvanas has done over the course of her time as leader.
    She's killed hundreds-thousands and practically destroys all life around wherever she takes over.

    NOW THAT GARROSH has the heart then he is an immediate threat and the Ali should help defeat him.

    But until now, our decisions have been ropey at most, and our lack of any reward for putting our lives on the line to help save the horde has been pretty insulting.

  15. #15
    Herald of the Titans Lovestar's Avatar
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    It might be prudent to do a little more "Faction Champions" kind of bosses / raids every so often, where Alliance and Horde fight different, faction-themed bosses (with cloned abilities, for balance/design reasons).

    I agree the game has gotten a little diluted, in that much of the "top end" content barely — if at all — differs by faction. I think even most PvP just throws you against whatever faction is ready in the queue.

    As annoying as the forced animosity can be at times, I have to grudgingly admit that MMOs feel a little spunkier and more alive when your faction choice has real teeth and identity. That has to carry through into things like raid bosses sometimes, because people blow through solo questing / "outdoors" content much faster and also tend to forget it much faster (since it's so disposable).

    Something as simple as Tier 18 Boss #6 is a Human Paladin for Horde, and a Horde Shaman for Alliance, is the kind of tiny detail that can produce long-distance effects on player perception and identification.

    As for Garrosh, I like the guy. He's ruthless. One of the refreshing things for me about SWTOR (sorry, I bring it up a lot but I've been playing it a lot) is that playing Empire, you really don't feel "misunderstood" or "outcast" — you are the bad guy, and it's just really good fun to revel in it. I think WoW would benefit a little more from a Good|Evil faction dichotomy instead of trying to tiptoe on the fence and make everyone happy.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by JimmyHellfire View Post
    You'd rather kill just orcs/humans throughout the whole expansion?
    Yes

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  17. #17
    Field Marshal Rathnor The Flesher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anguished View Post
    Except, you had no idea that Vol'jin was the 'enemy'. Back then, that was the beginning of the whole ordeal. Yes, Vol'jin had always opposed Garrosh from the start of his reign as Warchief. And still, either way, he still tried to kill you, and still tried to kill one of the racial leaders from his faction. There's no respect to be had there, it's just backstabbing, quite literally.
    Well, there you have it. If my character had any choice in anything he probably would've never helped Vol'jin to begin with or at the very least helped kill him for being a dissenting cur and threatening the Warchief's life to his face.
    Vol'jin challenged Garrosh's leadership, legitimacy, and honor. What self-respecting Orc would take those kind of insults lying down?


    Quote Originally Posted by Lovestar View Post
    I think WoW would benefit a little more from a Good|Evil faction dichotomy instead of trying to tiptoe on the fence and make everyone happy.
    Huzzah! Someone who gets it!

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by ggabboud View Post
    As an Orc there should be no reason to hate him I feel. Thoughts?
    As an Orc player I also don't see any reason to kill my Warchief. Blizzard did a horrible job at portraying Garrosh as a bad guy. And the way they built him up for this was with mixed reactions from the fanbase, nobody had that with Arthas. Everyone understood Arthas went evil. Not everyone agrees Garrosh is evil though, that's where Blizzard obviously failed in storytelling. Maybe it simply doesn't work the same way in an MMO as it did in the RTS, maybe people get emotionally connected to a leader they had for over a year, whereas they didn't get the time with Arthas since the game doesn't last that long. Or perhaps Blizzard just did a poor job this time around. Or maybe both.

    And I also agree on your point that Blizzard promised us a big Horde and Alliance war. I haven't seen any either. Patch 5.1 was Horde vs Alliance all out war? It was a skirmish at best, it was comparable to Warsong Gulch or Tol'Barad. And even halfway through patch 5.1 Horde players are slowly turned to fight their Warchief. We never really got the chance to fight Alliance.... what a missed opportunity Blizzard.

    First they say they want to reignite the Horde and Alliance war, and remember that everyone thought that was what Mists of Pandaria would be about, right? Remember when lots of people said this expansion caters too much to kids and that the theme is too happy? Well, many people said that the Horde / Alliance war would make up for it. But there isn't any Horde / Alliance war! There is the Horde and Alliance working together towards the same enemy AGAIN.

    I just wish that Blizzard never lied to us. I don't want to go back to helping the Alliance against the Legion or the Naga next expansion, let's for once start this war properly! Let this be WARcraft, not peacecraft. Isn't that the core of the franchise? Two factions at war with eachother? If they're going to be working together all the time, might as well reduce it to one big happy faction.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Airwaves View Post
    Oh you have a reason. HE TRIED TO HAVE YOU ASSASSINATED ALONG SIDE VOL'JIN. If that couldn't turn you against him like this then they never will.
    My character never did that scenario, as I don't want to be forced into a side I don't agree with. If my character would be in that situation, he'd gladly help the assassin take out Vol'jin instead. And yes, I play on an RP server for a reason. I don't like to be forced into the role of oathbreaker and backstabber, it's not how I roll.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anguished View Post
    Except, you had no idea that Vol'jin was the 'enemy'. Back then, that was the beginning of the whole ordeal. Yes, Vol'jin had always opposed Garrosh from the start of his reign as Warchief. And still, either way, he still tried to kill you, and still tried to kill one of the racial leaders from his faction. There's no respect to be had there, it's just backstabbing, quite literally.
    Vol'jin is the real backstabber here, he's the one who has a problem with authority. Not once, but on multiple occasions does he make it clear that he doesn't understand authority, Vol'jin is so arrogant that he probably believes he should be Warchief and everyone should listen to him. Yes, that makes him the same as Garrosh, but the difference is the title. Vol'jin wasn't appointed leader, Garrosh was. Please, go tell your boss at work in the real world that he is incompetent (on multiple occasions!) and see where it takes you. This is simply a fantasy game where you don't get fired, instead your actions get you killed. Vol'jin had it coming.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Hardstyler01 View Post
    As an Orc player I also don't see any reason to kill my Warchief. Blizzard did a horrible job at portraying Garrosh as a bad guy. And the way they built him up for this was with mixed reactions from the fanbase, nobody had that with Arthas. Everyone understood Arthas went evil. Not everyone agrees Garrosh is evil though, that's where Blizzard obviously failed in storytelling. Maybe it simply doesn't work the same way in an MMO as it did in the RTS, maybe people get emotionally connected to a leader they had for over a year, whereas they didn't get the time with Arthas since the game doesn't last that long. Or perhaps Blizzard just did a poor job this time around. Or maybe both.

    And I also agree on your point that Blizzard promised us a big Horde and Alliance war. I haven't seen any either. Patch 5.1 was Horde vs Alliance all out war? It was a skirmish at best, it was comparable to Warsong Gulch or Tol'Barad. And even halfway through patch 5.1 Horde players are slowly turned to fight their Warchief. We never really got the chance to fight Alliance.... what a missed opportunity Blizzard.

    First they say they want to reignite the Horde and Alliance war, and remember that everyone thought that was what Mists of Pandaria would be about, right? Remember when lots of people said this expansion caters too much to kids and that the theme is too happy? Well, many people said that the Horde / Alliance war would make up for it. But there isn't any Horde / Alliance war! There is the Horde and Alliance working together towards the same enemy AGAIN.

    I just wish that Blizzard never lied to us. I don't want to go back to helping the Alliance against the Legion or the Naga next expansion, let's for once start this war properly! Let this be WARcraft, not peacecraft. Isn't that the core of the franchise? Two factions at war with eachother? If they're going to be working together all the time, might as well reduce it to one big happy faction.

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    My character never did that scenario, as I don't want to be forced into a side I don't agree with. If my character would be in that situation, he'd gladly help the assassin take out Vol'jin instead. And yes, I play on an RP server for a reason. I don't like to be forced into the role of oathbreaker and backstabber, it's not how I roll.
    You see peace? I don't know, what you're smoking. I can easily argue that It is still Horde vs Alliance. If you are into RP, you should be into lore. Garrosh sees his horde AS The Horde, the true Horde. So it is the Alliance with the Rebels (which is what they/we are) vs The Horde. I don't see these guys bringing flowers and go "Garrosh lets hug and kiss cause we're peaceful and it is peace craft now". Warcraft original was Orcs vs Humans, but now it is wars against The Burning Legion, the Old Gods, the big bad who we have to kill. Peacecraft.....no I don't see peace anywhere. The enemy of my enemy is my friend.
    Last edited by Theendgamelv3; 2013-08-22 at 11:25 PM.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chaozu View Post
    That's pretty much what we have been doing in BC, Wrath, Cataclysm, and even now in MoP. No idea why Blizzard is such a huge fan of it, they continuously scream out "we like the concept of Humans vs Orcs", yet at the same time throw out the "we should work together for the greater good" card.
    some of that could be due to gameplay reasons
    As Horde/Allaince players share most content together, we all run the same dungeons/raids, so there has to be reasons why that is so

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    Quote Originally Posted by Airwaves View Post
    Oh you have a reason. HE TRIED TO HAVE YOU ASSASSINATED ALONG SIDE VOL'JIN. If that couldn't turn you against him like this then they never will..
    Not exactly true.
    You go on to serve alongside Garrosh further down the quest line, watching him on Vol'jin's orders, either that or Garrosh has very short term memory

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anguished View Post
    and still tried to kill one of the racial leaders from his faction.
    Its kinda wise to stop a potentially disloyal member of your army/faction before they actually do major damage
    But its also a fine line to tread, deciding whether to take action or not
    We have faced trials and danger, threats to our world and our way of life. And yet, we persevere. We are the Horde. We will not let anything break our spirits!"

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