What happened to alliance vs horde? Is garrosh really that bad?

[Dreknar20]

dailies:

trying to throw a bias spin onto events dsnt change it
Both sides attack the other bases and defend their own

[Mormolyce]

Really? Haven't noticed. Pretty much all of the fighting is against the Mantid, the Sha, the Mogu, the Trolls, the Tauren cousins (whatever they are called). There were some fighting against the Alliance in the Jade Forest, then a bit more in Krasarang Wilds on max level. But aside from that, nothing really comes to mind.

Heck, the fight in the Jade Forest that built up to be awesome was even interrupted by the Sha, the one would have been glorious moment thrown out the window to show what the emotions could do on Pandaria. /Meh

5.0 - Horde and Alliance veterans are sent to Pandaria as a advance scouting force. They skirmish at their landing zones in Jade Forest, then begin to explore Pandaria and encounter the Pandaren, Jinyu, Hozen, Yaungol, Mantid, Sha, etc.

5.1 - The main Horde and Alliance armies land on Pandaria's southern shores. They begin setting up beachheads and are immediately locked in conflict (Lions Landing/Dominance Offensive). Meanwhile Garrosh begins chasing powerful artefacts to use in his war on the Alliance, and Anduin tries to stop him. In the course of these events, the Sunreavers in Dalaran actively assist the Horde and Jaina responds by expelling them from Dalaran and declaring the Kirin Tor and Silver Covenant officially for the Alliance.

5.2 - The Zandalari are successful in bringing back the Thunder King and pose a serious invasion threat in Pandaria's northern shores. The Horde and Alliance are still too distracted fighting each other in the south (and Garrosh and his Kor'kron in particular are up to no good hunting down more sources of dark magic), so the Sunreavers (led by Lorthemar Theron) and Silver Covenant (led by Jaina) each mount an offensive on the Isle of the Thunder King with mostly their own forces. The Blood Elves are partly there to demonstrate their military might, and partly to secure powerful artefacts of the Thunder King. Jaina aims to stop them.

5.3 - Garrosh's crimes, goals and attempt on Vol'jin's life lead the Trolls into open rebellion, assisted by Vol'jin's old allies, Thrall, Chen and Baine. Thrall leaves for Orgrimmar to recruit loyal Orcs to the cause. Garrosh sends his Kor'kron to attack Sen'jin Village but is repelled. The Barrens and Durotar become a battleground, and Razor Hill is taken by the rebels. Meanwhile SI:7 agents covertly assist the rebels, as the Alliance has at least as strong an interest in removing Garrosh as the Horde does.

5.4 - Siege of Orgrimmar (pending)

And of course, throughout all these patches we have Wrathion attempting to manipulate events.

So I think it's fair to say that the theme of war has been ever-present in MoP, even if you weren't stabbing Alliance in the throat every day. Also, just like every other expansion there have been multiple plots running at once (eg, Wrath had the Titan Keepers and Malygos' blue flight running at the same time as the Lich King theme), particularly in 5.0 with the exploration of Pandaria, the Sha/Mantid/Mogu/Zandalari. And to in 5.2 with the Thunder King. Those "Pandaria" elements of the story have now finished so Siege will be the resolution of the war plotlines.

[Dreknar20]

I don't know man. Our victories were less than "convincing"

why so?
Deathwing was the greatest weapon in the Old God's arsenal. And we shoved Big K back into the Nether

[SodiumChloride]

On a side note,

Dear Blizzard,

If you are going to railroad your players onto a fixed progression path, you better convincingly sell the narrative that comes with it.

That means "grey areas" in the story are a no-no, especially when it involves the player.

Sincerely,

A player who is disappointed by your incompetent writing.

[razorfire]

trying to throw a bias spin onto events dsnt change it
Both sides attack the other bases and defend their own

how is pointing out what happens "throwing a bias spin onto events". I'm not saying horde is better or alliance is better. I'm saying garrosh sucks as an actual leader and always has, in nagrand he was bailed out of things by those around him when he would've led the mag'har into the ground. in northrend he was bailed out of things by saurfang and thrall and those among his forces who actually possessed more than one collective braincell, in cata the only real wins he had were under other peoples' command. in mists he doesn't HAVE any real wins, heck his fallback plan of finding and using a super weapon fails at first cause he finds it slower than the alliance then when he does get it it's destroyed by a kid who was standing in front of him completely stoppable the entire time. and during ALL of this he treats everyone but the orcs (and not even ALL the orcs just the ones that support his ego) like dirt so much that the only reason any of them follow him is out of fear that they'd lose the help of the other horde races by being kicked out or that he'd decide to go after THEM.

[SodiumChloride]

why so?
Deathwing was the greatest weapon in the Old God's arsenal. And we shoved Big K back into the Nether

I think you might be underestimating the Old Gods. Deathwing was just a tool, there will be others. If the Earth-Warder can be corrupted, anyone can.

Big K will be back. We lucked out with the Sunwell and the Naaru. It's doubtful we can stand against the full might of the Legion in a face to face clash, we are damn lucky they are having "logistic" problems.

[Landin55]

Wow, sorry, but that's hooey. They built up that character gradually since he first appeared in TBC and it was already clear in WotLK that they had this in mind with him.

And I don't know where you guys have been the last months, but this expansion was very much about red vs. blue.

Dear Journal: Today I found another.... one of the few in this wasteland that can see character progression, can read and does quests.....Thank the light.

[Theendgamelv3]

then i guess Heart of War and the Shattering were also out of place
For things that are out of place they happen quite a lot

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I guess you never heard of the Lion's Landing scenario

I never read the books, so I have little idea what Garrosh did. All I know is what he does in WoW itself so when it comes to WoW itself and not including the books, yes the things I mentioned is out of place.

[SodiumChloride]

I never read the books, so I have little idea what Garrosh did. All I know is what he does in WoW itself so when it comes to WoW itself and not including the books, yes the things I mentioned is out of place.

The books are what most people call "supplementary material". But apparently Blizzard doesn't know that supplementary material should be ... supplemental.

[Dreknar20]

The books are what most people call "supplementary material". But apparently Blizzard doesn't know that supplementary material should be ... supplemental.

well books are able to delve into the lore on a much more deeper level, something not easily done in game

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I think you might be underestimating the Old Gods. Deathwing was just a tool, there will be others. If the Earth-Warder can be corrupted, anyone can.

well according to Metzen, Deathwing was their 'greatest hammer', their biggest card to play
They intended to use him to bring about their rise in the Hour of Twilight

[Mormolyce]

Not true at all. Garrosh at the beginning of cata looked like he was going to be a psychopath. Then Stonetalon happened. It seemed like that was the fork in the road. Then, nothing. Until THERAMORE AND MoP!!!! Now we're back to psycho mode. Stonetalon Garrosh is totally out of place. Why? Because Blizz switched gears. MoP wasn't even supposed to be the post cata expac. They were developing another one completely. And those are the facts. Garrosh's fate was always in the air.

I feel like the devs were in two minds about Garrosh at that point. I think it was only late Cata that they decided to straight out make him a villain.

Not that Garrosh was exactly being heroic in Stonetalon. The events there were ultimately his fault, even if his generals were overzealous in the execution of their duties. He was merely demonstrating that even he has limits. Of course, now he doesn't...

[Dreknar20]

how is pointing out what happens "throwing a bias spin onto events".

Domination Point isnt losing any more than Lion's Landing is, they both are under attack, and attack the other

[Landin55]

well books are able to delve into the lore on a much more deeper level, something not easily done in game

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well according to Metzen, Deathwing was their 'greatest hammer', their biggest card to play
They intended to use him to bring about their rise in the Hour of Twilight

Greatest.... But what if they took 1000 thousand lesser hammer bound them together and made a new great hammer? DW was their most powerful asset but definitely not their last.

[Mormolyce]

On a side note,

Dear Blizzard,

If you are going to railroad your players onto a fixed progression path, you better convincingly sell the narrative that comes with it.

That means "grey areas" in the story are a no-no, especially when it involves the player.

Sincerely,

A player who is disappointed by your incompetent writing.

I prefer grey areas to black and white actually.

And Garrosh as of MoP is not grey at all, he's straight up black.

Pre-MoP Garrosh wasn't black or white, however he was pretty damn inconsistent...

[Landin55]

I prefer grey areas to black and white actually.

And Garrosh as of MoP is not grey at all, he's straight up black.

Pre-MoP Garrosh wasn't black or white, however he was pretty damn inconsistent...

Killing children wasn't black enough? Not to mention he can still be considered gray. He isn't doing this for shits and giggles and know he is evil, he thinks he is the good guy. Just like Papa Hellscream.

[Dreknar20]

in northrend he was bailed out of things by saurfang and thrall and those among his forces who actually possessed more than one collective braincell

oh great, that topic again
Absolutly every where, it states Garrosh led the Horde to victory in Northrend, and gained fame for doing so, even Thrall commends him multiple times for doing so

[Landin55]

oh great, that topic again
Absolutly every where, it states Garrosh led the Horde to victory in Northrend, and gained fame for doing so, even Thrall commends him multiple times for doing so

Yeah remember that great victory when you sneaked up on the Alliance during a blizzard while they were attacking the Scourge? Commendable indeed.

[Dreknar20]

Not to mention he can still be considered gray. He isn't doing this for shits and giggles and know he is evil, he thinks he is the good guy. Just like Papa Hellscream.

same story with any villian
No one goes around thinking 'this course of action is evil and wrong.........which is why ima do exactly that'
Everyone everywhere does what they do thinking they have right on their side, that they have justice/God whatever in their side

[razorfire]

Domination Point isnt losing any more than Lion's Landing is, they both are under attack, and attack the other

actually domination point IS losing more than lion's landing is..again, actually look at both sides when they're on the offensive. alliance has forces INSIDE the horde base, their ships have to be attacked and disabled. HORDE on the other hand has the entirety of its assault force held back by multiple defensive lines of alliance troops with no way into alliance airspace, heck for the longest time even the horde base's flak cannons were bugged so they did nothing to alliance players flying into the base (and even when they aren't they only cover a very small portion of the base)...alliance air defenses however will start hitting a horde player if they go within 20 feet of the front gate with a flying mount. you cay say they're even if you want but alliance manages to keep all the defensive abiliites it's had since WC1 while horde still doesn't have them and for some reason completely forgets how to actually attack effectively.

[Theendgamelv3]

I feel like the devs were in two minds about Garrosh at that point. I think it was only late Cata that they decided to straight out make him a villain.

Not that Garrosh was exactly being heroic in Stonetalon. The events there were ultimately his fault, even if his generals were overzealous in the execution of their duties. He was merely demonstrating that even he has limits. Of course, now he doesn't...

Pretty much this and it is kinda sad too. I think events like the Stonetalon showed depth to his character and now he is like "RAWR DIE!". Rathnor was right to that Garrosh was different and not "boring" and they IMO could have worked with that. A more focused Horde with more distinction is what Garrosh brought IMO. I know quite a few players hated Garrosh, but he was different and just rough, but doesn't mean he was necessary bad...at least he wasn't in the first place.