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  1. #101
    Scarab Lord Moon Blade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreknar20 View Post
    why is that required?
    Good and evil are based on perspective.
    Every army in history, every side across time thought of themselves as good and their enemy as wrong
    Wrong, some armies just went out to loot, plunder and pillage with nothing more than "I want so I take" as their motivations.

    All armies go into combat against their opponents seeing as justice, right, and God are on their side.
    And guess what, the other side beleives the same exact thing
    Tell that to the Communists.

    I mean as a Horde player, you have more content focused on fighting against your own Horde then there is fighting against the Alliance
    And in Cataclysm you had more content focused on fighting the Alliance than Deathwing and his allies.

    You also dont forget all the bad blood between the factions and races. Just because something like the Scourge pops its head dsnt dilute any of that.
    Thousands have died, homes have been laid waste.........people do not easily forgive and forget
    you mean Alliance homes and lives. Horde didn't get crushed into the dirt at all. Their armies were defeated but their home front remained free of the bloodbath it needed to make the Alliance truly "grey". We don't get our vengeance against them. In fact we are told vengeance against the Horde is wrong, the Horde wasn't the enemy it was actually Garrosh and our "high King" forces his will on the matter letting your faction exist when it should've been exterminated with extreme prejudice. But Alliance is lawful stupid, total war isn't an option for us, neither is retribution or conquest. We don't even get thrown a bone with imperialism or righteous indignation for the Horde's blitzkrieg and genocide attempts.
    Which to mean is one of the re-occuring themes of the Warcraft Saga, old hatrds die hard
    cept we Alliance aren't allowed to hate the Horde in the story while the Horde is weened on hating the Alliance through quests, lore, and the actions and attitudes of those writing the story itself.
    If it's not an elf, leave it on the shelf.
    Out with the old, in with the new, and superior. Old models are all hideous garbage compared to the new
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  2. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post
    I prefer grey areas to black and white actually.

    And Garrosh as of MoP is not grey at all, he's straight up black.

    Pre-MoP Garrosh wasn't black or white, however he was pretty damn inconsistent...
    Oh I like "grey areas" too, but there is a time and place.

    It's great when the players have a choice in the cause of action to take and can pick what they personally feel is best.

    But WoW isn't a game with choice. Blizzard railroads you onto a fixed course set by them.

    If you are making such a linear experience, you better make sure your narrative is airtight when it comes to "buy in" from the player base. This mostly means "black and white" morality with little doubt as to the moral standing of the various participants of the story.
    Last edited by SodiumChloride; 2013-08-23 at 06:12 AM.

  3. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by Rathnor The Flesher View Post
    A coup is hardly a war, mon frere. Also, the context of 'war' is in reference to the war between the two factions, not general conflict.
    People still think that couple of grunts and footmen hitting each other with sticks is "war".
    The common man is like a worm in the gut of a corpse, trapped inside a prison of cold flesh, helpless and uncaring, unaware even of the inevitability of its own doom.

  4. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by Verdugo View Post
    People still think that couple of grunts and footmen hitting each other with sticks is "war".
    If there's territory being lost to an opposing plattoon of soldiers, then yes it's a war. The occupation of Ashenvale and Southern Barrens kills any notion that "oh this is just some skirmishes."

  5. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by ggabboud View Post
    When CATA ended I remember how the devs talked about how there wasn't enough horde vs alliance and that we would see more of it in Panda. Not only that but that it would also be the main focus of the expansion. Other than the first patch I haven't seen much horde vs alliance as the main story line. But I also feel like this is a WOW villain issue. In order for us as players to be involved the villain has to be epic. And the way they become epic is so grand that alliance and horde have to put their battle on the back burner in order to stop the big baddie. So do you guys feel that this will just continue to be a recurring theme, where alliance and horde have to put their battle aside in order to fight the big bad?


    As a horde player I don't see what garrosh did as the ultimate must die that blizz made it out to be Pre-expansion release. Yes he alienated races other then orcs but I feel like that was a cheap way to go about turning the horde on him. As an Orc there should be no reason to hate him I feel. Thoughts?
    Consider this, as an Orc Garrosh has not himself defeated Mannoroth but takes credit for it by wearing the Tusk over his shoulder. He has slayed no Dragons, defeated no Dreadlords, Lich King's, nor has he ever actually prove that he was worthy of recieving the title of Warchief. Even Varian defeated Onyxia, Jaina Thrall and Malfurion defeated Archimonde, and Vol'jin and Geblin even reclaimed their homeland.

    Garrosh just took the credit for everything that Thrall created. Without the other members of the Horde they are just about as weak and defenseless as the Fel Orcs in Outland. Surrounded on all sides and literally digging into their own graves. Consider the Irony of where they hide Magtheridon the source of their power (Underneath their fortress) and where the heart of Y'shaarj is (under Ogrimmar.) History indeed repeats itself. Follow him if you want but bring a shovel, it your funeral.

  6. #106
    it would be nice if blizzard would make the game appeal to both sides, those who want the non-stop allaince vs horde antics and those who prefer to put aside differences for a common goal.

    Some people really dig the Red vs Blue and that's cool, but others could care less about it and find it completely unreasonable and illogical to waste resources fighting each other when there are bigger, badder, and more evil enemies out there that would kill you all without a second thought. Instead blizzard FORCES every single player to be whatever they feel like you should be at any given time. Sometimes they force you to work with the opposite faction for the greater good, sometimes they force you to slaughter the enemy faction for no good reason. There is no choice involved at all, they just flip flop back and forth all the time.

    I've never really openly said it before because I know it's a pointless thing to get into, but i've always been a fan of the whole "third faction" concept that could have members from both factions (all races) join it and work together without all the pointless A v H conflict, then you could dedicate the old alliance and horde to being strictly alliance vs horde first and foremost. Or hell, they wouldn't even have to make a third faction. They could've simply let you sign up for and join your faction's military as aliiance or horde and as a soldier in their army give you rank and such you can advance (similar to vanilla style pvp ranks, not this new rbg crap) and as an official soldier in your faction's army you have strict rules about conduct towards "the enemy" and such, but without making that leap and joining the actual army, you are basically a private citizen and can choose to fight in pvp if you want (like freelance mercenary almost) or put aside differences with the opposing faction and focus on raiding as a champion/hero type. Could integrate cross-faction grouping and such for people who aren't part of the standing military forces.

    It really makes no difference to have absolutely no control over how your character acts, thinks, or feels in the story. You simply do the EXACT SAME THING that every other character does, even if it is a complete reversal of your stance and how you would've reacted to it previously (like in a previous expansion). Makes no sense.
    I like ponies and I really don't care what you have to say about that.

  7. #107
    It turned into Horde vs Horde.

  8. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by Lokoz View Post
    It turned into Horde vs Horde.
    Has anyone ever considered the Forsaken attacking the Scourge as Scourge Vs, Scourge?

    I will say Garrosh should have chose a new name with more "Zazzz" for his faction. But since he likes to take credit for shit he didn't do (cough-Tusks of Mannoroth-cough) What can we expect.

  9. #109
    Blademaster BrintoSFJ's Avatar
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    I read it in this forum all the time : "warcraft was about orc vs human", exactly when was that? i am really sorry but i don't recall warcraft ever being only "orc vs human". despite the name of 1st game "warcraft : orcs & humans", in the game there were elf, gnome,dwarf,troll,ogre, goblin. i played all the warcraft rts and there was never a game that i found where there were only "human vs orc". please provide me with proper proof that warcraft was only about "human vs orc".
    "Why do we fight? to protect home and family, to preserve balance and bring harmony. For my kind the true question is : what is worth fighting for?"

  10. #110
    Herald of the Titans T Man's Avatar
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    Garrosh is the hero the horde needs but not the one it deserves.

    Right now (we) they deserve someone loving, caring, and willing to forgive. Because that is clearly what everyone wants.

    A family man who the people can "Connect" with and the kind of person you would want to invite out for a pick-nick.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BrintoSFJ View Post
    I read it in this forum all the time : "warcraft was about orc vs human", exactly when was that? i am really sorry but i don't recall warcraft ever being only "orc vs human". despite the name of 1st game "warcraft : orcs & humans", in the game there were elf, gnome,dwarf,troll,ogre, goblin. i played all the warcraft rts and there was never a game that i found where there were only "human vs orc". please provide me with proper proof that warcraft was only about "human vs orc".

    The 2 factions of the game "horde" Run by >ORCS< and the alliance run by >HUMANS<

    If you wanted to join the horde or the alliance you would need to go to the ORC city or the HUMAN city to pledge allegiance.

  11. #111
    Quote Originally Posted by Anguished View Post
    Except, you had no idea that Vol'jin was the 'enemy'. Back then, that was the beginning of the whole ordeal. Yes, Vol'jin had always opposed Garrosh from the start of his reign as Warchief. And still, either way, he still tried to kill you, and still tried to kill one of the racial leaders from his faction. There's no respect to be had there, it's just backstabbing, quite literally.
    You had to been living under a rock to not know Garrosh and Vol'jin had a tension between each other. For instance, Voljin's talk with Thrall's image in troll starting area. That was kind of a giveaway that they would be at each other throat sooner or later. Basing on just that is enough to realize that perhaps it is time to pick side dont you think?

  12. #112
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreknar20 View Post
    Saurfang bails him out..........by what helping the player kill a necromancer?
    It still remains that the Warsong Offensive was able to succesfully advance into Northrend against the Scourge under Hellscream
    Thrall and Cairne all congrats him for it
    Ever seen Band of Brothers? It's an HBO series about the U.S. 504th airborne infantry during WWII. In a few of the different battles, the commanding officers freak out, make bad decisions, and get good men killed. And during those times, the lower ranking officers actually manage to make the best of a very bad situation, cut the casualties from what they could have been, and somehow turn defeat into victory.

    That's how I view Garrosh's leadership in Wrath. Sure, under his command, the warsong offensive succeeded. but that doesn't mean it had anything to do with his leadership skills. Especially with Saurfang looking over his shoulder and correcting his mistakes, and the player doing grunt work to set things right after Garrosh screws them up. Thrall and Cairne may 'grats' him for it, but who is to say that he earned it? Or that Thrall and Cairne knew everything going on?

  13. #113
    Quote Originally Posted by Lastlivingsoul View Post
    Consider this, as an Orc Garrosh has not himself defeated Mannoroth but takes credit for it by wearing the Tusk over his shoulder. He has slayed no Dragons, defeated no Dreadlords, Lich King's, nor has he ever actually prove that he was worthy of recieving the title of Warchief. Even Varian defeated Onyxia, Jaina Thrall and Malfurion defeated Archimonde, and Vol'jin and Geblin even reclaimed their homeland.
    Well then the only logical war chief would be one of my characters, bc I defeated all the evils that ever sprung up...

    I'm just saying, if I was alliance I see no reason to join just yet...let the horde have infighting maybe the rebels will kill garosh, then I can attack their weakened side and finally destroy the horde, or vice versa. Garosh is by no means a big bad like the lich king or deathwing. If the alliance plays the patience game they can wipe out the horde. So logically that should be the step the alliance takes.

  14. #114
    Field Marshal Rathnor The Flesher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ggabboud View Post
    Well then the only logical war chief would be one of my characters, bc I defeated all the evils that ever sprung up...

    I'm just saying, if I was alliance I see no reason to join just yet...let the horde have infighting maybe the rebels will kill garosh, then I can attack their weakened side and finally destroy the horde, or vice versa. Garosh is by no means a big bad like the lich king or deathwing. If the alliance plays the patience game they can wipe out the horde. So logically that should be the step the alliance takes.
    Heheh, I bet you wish the Alliance had that much foresight. It seems like most, if not all, the characters in the game are pretty tactically inept. The closest thing to a clever plan-of-attack would be the Wrathgate Massacre, but then Putress had to be a moron and corner himself underground. Ya know, usually writers like to take inspiration from actual battles if they can't think in that sort of manner.

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