RPPM Good or Bad?

[mongoose6]

I think something that people are missing is that RPPM is a SYSTEM. It doesn't only apply to trinkets, it also applies to enchants (including the cloak enchant) and the meta gems. The introduction of trinkets with proc variety won't fix anything. The main failing of the system IMO, is that the efficacy of procs is directly influenced by a secondary stat. Perhaps it wouldn't be as much of a problem if it were implemented differently as Coldkill has suggested, but I still think that any stat based proc system is a HUGE design flaw that favors some classes and specs over others. Rogues just happen to be lucky that we can make good use out of haste.

[Deleted]

I must be playing a different game, never in my raid have I seen a 300k dps difference between two damage dealers because of anything, much less a trinket proc.

I'm guessing you have no fire mage in your raid then.

[Kulestu]

Parses are also slightly different than Skada/Recount, especially with burst. Go look at a parse of your last raid and you'll see burst damage way higher than it was on your damage meter. I never get above 450k in a raid, but WoL pumps that up to about 800k on some fights, I assume Skada normalizes burst slightly? I've also regularly seen our mage pull about 800k off the pull, just depending on trinket procs/crits with pyro.

[Fluorescent0]

Skada doesn't normalize anything, you probably aren't reading world of logs efficiently. World of logs provides, at any given time, the damage being done in that instant. If you're familiar with Maths, that's just a derivative of damage in that single second. Skada instead calculates DPS based on the whole fight time. To get your skada number using wol, what you should effectively be doing is calculate the integral of your damage graph up to the point you're considering and then divide it by the time which has passed from the start of the fight to that point.

[Maelstrom51]

Parses are also slightly different than Skada/Recount, especially with burst. Go look at a parse of your last raid and you'll see burst damage way higher than it was on your damage meter. I never get above 450k in a raid, but WoL pumps that up to about 800k on some fights, I assume Skada normalizes burst slightly? I've also regularly seen our mage pull about 800k off the pull, just depending on trinket procs/crits with pyro.

Ctrl click recount and a graph will pop up. The graph will show your dps at that instant, and will mostly reflect what is shown in WoL.

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To get your skada number using wol, what you should effectively be doing is calculate the integral of your damage graph up to the point you're considering and then divide it by the time which has passed from the start of the fight to that point.

A simpler solution is to highlight the section in question and set the page to only that section. Then look at overall dps.

[Mormolyce]

Trinkets are supposed to be RNG - but people hate RNG - so if they work properly, people don't like it. Shrug.

RPPM RNG is one of the things I currently HATE about WoW. One pull I'm doing ~800k burst the next, maybe 300k. It's absolutely infuriating that so much rides on the first 25-30s of an encounter, and even then you can get screwed while playing near perfectly.

I've never understood why Blizzard doesn't just make potion CDs start at the end of the buff instead of the start and thus eliminate pre-potting. Would basically remove any need to stack everything on the pull.

[Maelstrom51]

Trinkets are supposed to be RNG - but people hate RNG - so if they work properly, people don't like it. Shrug.

People don't like it when RNG causes wild swings in performance. Which is exactly what the RPPM system does when applied to things with low proc rates.
How well your trinkets proc can make a bigger difference than your skill and/or gear, and that feel like shit.

I've never understood why Blizzard doesn't just make potion CDs start at the end of the buff instead of the start and thus eliminate pre-potting. Would basically remove any need to stack everything on the pull.

Unless there's an important burn phase you'd want to save cooldowns for, you would still want to use your potion at the start since you stack your cooldowns at the start. Doesn't really change anything.

[Ryme]

I disliked it's effects in game, and the modelling nightmares it could produce. ICD was fine, the fun in the trinket was getting the trinket, not micromanaging it.

[Kulestu]

I preferred when trinkets were different. There were some passive effect trinkets (similar to what Thok's Tail Tip would have been for non-str classes until Blizzard nerfed it), ICD trinkets and on-use trinkets. Now it's just a slew of RPPM trinket with different effects.

[Warstar]

I think the biggest think about RPPM that most people don't like is that it leaves them with a large amount of things that they can't control about their dps. A Demo warlock who is able to use a random proc and still take adavantage of the randomness of RPPM is awesome and a great player can become an amazing player with this system. But for the more static classes out there the lack of control is a huge issue because it's abilities that we can a lot of the time just not make good use out of them.

Like if vendetta was a CD that instead of having an on use effect of every 2 minutes you got a damage buff but after you use vendetta it starts to charge up so that after 2 minutes it's fully charged and you can get a 30 second long vendetta or like if you get an RPPM proc at a minute into it's CD you could use vendetta for only 15 seconds. Stuff like that would make the randomness of RPPM a good thing because then you have a random uncontrolled aspect of an encounter that allows you to be reactionary to the fight and make use out of things that happen.

But, like most rogue abilities it's just another passive that blizz threw at us. And the amount of passive damage the rogues do is ridiculous. Last night I did a ToT raid and when I first zoned in I was rather distracted and talking with the wife and all and I completely forgot to put up poisons since they were already pulling trash. I was wondering why I was doing a beastly 66k damage and was wondering if I had like un-key bound mutilate or something and then noticed that my poisons weren't up and my dps went up 100k more the next trash pull.... passive stuff is pretty cool man.

[Kulestu]

Warlocks and mages can save metamorphosis and combustion and semi-major CDs for trinket procs because it's such a huge portion of their DPS and the trinkets make them that much bigger. You'll never be able to have a class like rogues, who are mostly based on passive damage and auto attacks, end up using trinkets that effectively. At least with on-use trinkets you can sync it up with your class-CDs.

I'm leveling a mage for a reason.

[Verain]

Trinkets are supposed to be RNG - but people hate RNG - so if they work properly, people don't like it. Shrug.

Trinkets aren't "supposed to be RNG". The only RNG is Dragonspine Trophy was whether it dropped. The only RNG in Wrath of Unchaining was whether your feral was trying to eat it up first!

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Warlocks and mages can save metamorphosis and combustion and semi-major CDs for trinket procs because it's such a huge portion of their DPS and the trinkets make them that much bigger. You'll never be able to have a class like rogues, who are mostly based on passive damage and auto attacks, end up using trinkets that effectively. At least with on-use trinkets you can sync it up with your class-CDs.

I find my damage during vendetta blades to be excellent this patch, and I think it's worth waiting in some cases. Yes, the examples you get get MORE, but right now, our cooldowns are strong. They'll be less strong next tier, but still- it's not like its out of the universe or anything.

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Would basically remove any need to stack everything on the pull.

Because pre-potting is good, and Blizzard wants to encourage it!

[WillFeral]

if Haste made RPPM more reliable to the point it was predictable, well it wouldn't have been that bad.

Since this is not the case, and they even nerfed the intial proc, i don't see how RPPM should be funnier than an ICD or an on-use trinket.

ICD = i can somewhat predict thr proc and save cooldowns/pot to line them up and get better performance
on-use = i can delay this trinket for the burst phase or avoid using it before tran sition to get optimal uptime
RPPM = HURR DURR I PROC WHEN I CARE MORE BUT HEY YOU CAN GET DOUBLE PROC DURING FLYING PHASES

Yea because predictable=fun?
And you wonder why high end pvp players make fun of high end pve players,one actually takes skill and one doesnt,see if you can figure out which one goes with the other.

[Fluorescent0]

Yea because predictable=fun?
And you wonder why high end pvp players make fun of high end pve players,one actually takes skill and one doesnt,see if you can figure out which one goes with the other.

Yes because being lucky with getting many procs and getting them during your cooldowns indeed takes a huge amount of skill.

[Beace]

Hate it. Blizzard claims the players enjoy the randomness. I call bullshit on that. Haven't talked to a single raider in my guild that likes this new system.

[Kulestu]

Trinkets aren't "supposed to be RNG". The only RNG is Dragonspine Trophy was whether it dropped. The only RNG in Wrath of Unchaining was whether your feral was trying to eat it up first!

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I find my damage during vendetta blades to be excellent this patch, and I think it's worth waiting in some cases. Yes, the examples you get get MORE, but right now, our cooldowns are strong. They'll be less strong next tier, but still- it's not like its out of the universe or anything.

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Because pre-potting is good, and Blizzard wants to encourage it!

Not worth waiting on Vendetta/Sblades if you're going to lose another use during the fight, though.

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Yea because predictable=fun?
And you wonder why high end pvp players make fun of high end pve players,one actually takes skill and one doesnt,see if you can figure out which one goes with the other.

How many rank 1 titles do you have? I've got one and four glad titles and find PvE to be just as hard, in a different way.

[Coldkil]

Yea because predictable=fun?
And you wonder why high end pvp players make fun of high end pve players,one actually takes skill and one doesnt,see if you can figure out which one goes with the other.

The ICD and on-use take skill, since it's in your hands how to use them and how to line cooldowns.

The RPPM ones don't take skill, since it's completely random and passive.

Skill means controlling things, not letting them happen.

Also: look at PvP trinkets - everyone takes the on-use ones because you can manually line them with big CDs for controlled burst. So if i take your words as true, this actually means PvP takes less skill than PvE.

[Warstar]

Yea because predictable=fun?
And you wonder why high end pvp players make fun of high end pve players,one actually takes skill and one doesnt,see if you can figure out which one goes with the other.

I've raided in a lot of really high end guilds and have ended up raided with some e-famous pvpers back in the day or even just hardcore pvpers in general who don't raid and just pvp. It's funny seeing how bad they are at pve a lot of the time.

They're two different games really.

And if pve didn't take skill then why are there so many bad people out there?

Honestly all those people who are on the "LOL NO SKILZ" band wagon sound really ignorant and most likely aren't that good of players themselves.

[WillFeral]

Not worth waiting on Vendetta/Sblades if you're going to lose another use during the fight, though.

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How many rank 1 titles do you have? I've got one and four glad titles and find PvE to be just as hard, in a different way.

You have your opinion i have mine,hmm we should create a website where people can come and do what we just expressed!We can call it a ...Forum!
Anywayyyyys,unscripted content vs. scripted and some people twist numbers and reach as far as they can to create some logic that something that you know everything that is going to happen is harder than something that has no script and you have to adjust and react to multiple things going on (remember all these things going on are not scripted) and use your abilities/skill versus an enemy that actually fights back with the same objective you have.
Whats the AI on wow bosses? hmm yea thought so.

p.s. Like i said before this just(MY) opinion so some of you can continue to rage and insult if it makes you fell better and correct about something that has no real answer..Happy gaming!

[Kulestu]

You come in here talking about which aspect of the game takes more skill to someone that's been at the top of both, and when I ask how many titles you have and why your opinion is valid you back off throw out "you have your opinion, I have mine."

Nice. Also, any good PvPer can pretty well interpret what another player is going to do. It may not be scripted, but the AI also reacts to player actions. Bosses aren't always standing the same way, moves don't land in the same place, or hit for the same amount, etc. Take fake-casting a heal. Low level pvp you just throw a kick, high level pvp you let them fake-cast then kick, top level pvp you kick when they have no option but let the heal finish. It's not hard to tell when someone is gonna run around a wall, what path they're going to run (not to mention everyone is always slowed) and what moves they're going to use.