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  1. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by Coldkil View Post
    The complete story is that there are 2 things being planned:

    - the nerf, which is basically aimed to avoid the "so much damage burst at pull" and will make the first proc to happen not before 120 seconds in the fight (or was it 90? i recall these two numbers but don't remeber which one came before)

    - the fix, which is aimed to solve the double stat scaling some RPPM trinkets have; all of them now scale with haste, but some also scale with another secondary stat or double-dip into haste for a greater dps increase. These ones will have their proc chance scaling on haste removed, so they will make use of only one stat and don't get double bonuses (basically they become very similar to old PPM ones).
    Part 1- it's -- 120, and I think it's a terrible idea for reasons I've detailed previously and Warstar (I think it was) mentioned shortly above. Our reliance (as players, not necessarily rogues in particular) at the start is 100% the same; our ability to GET procs at the start has been eliminated, so given luck swings, expect some high variance in opening DPS for your raid between pulls. Yay. If it were set to like 200 seconds since last pull it'd be a non-issue, but they'd need to either neuter the proc (perhaps give a weaker opening fight proc for trinkets?) or make the proc weaker and more common - for all big-effect-stack-with-CDs trinkets.

    Part 2- This is fine, really, and it needed to happen, although I don't like being nerfed more than anyone else. The values they used for balancing against lost haste were laughable last I looked. Something like a 10% proc increase rate, when I'm used to having 30%+ haste increasing rates instead... is a definite nerf.

    Poke- I actually do notice when I get a long string of good luck as well, but it's REALLY not as noticeable as when your trinkets proc right after all of your opening CDs wear off. Hate hate hate that. Which contributes to this being a poor system.

    Fixed: 120s, missed an update while I was out of town. Thanks.
    Last edited by Kael; 2013-08-30 at 06:04 PM. Reason: Updated for info I missed

  2. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by Coldkil View Post
    The complete story is that there are 2 things being planned:

    - the nerf, which is basically aimed to avoid the "so much damage burst at pull" and will make the first proc to happen not before 120 seconds in the fight (or was it 90? i recall these two numbers but don't remeber which one came before)

    - the fix, which is aimed to solve the double stat scaling some RPPM trinkets have; all of them now scale with haste, but some also scale with another secondary stat or double-dip into haste for a greater dps increase. These ones will have their proc chance scaling on haste removed, so they will make use of only one stat and don't get double bonuses (basically they become very similar to old PPM ones).
    I'm tired and not all that smart, what does this mean for the damage-proc trinkets?

  3. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by Kulestu View Post
    I'm tired and not all that smart, what does this mean for the damage-proc trinkets?
    They are all becoming much weaker, but this is for all damage specs.

    The first change is this: on live, when you don't see a proc, your trinket gets grumpy, and wants to proc more and more. After five minutes, it reaches max grump, and will almost assuredly proc right away. The change is, the trinkets will always believe they have gone two minutes without proccing, never five, never 10 seconds, when you pull a raid boss. This actually doesn't affect rogues that much- our trinkets all have a pretty high procrate. But it means that a warlock won't be able to count on a prompt proc of his 100% crit trinket.

    Change to you: Pretty much nothing. You'll maybe not see both RPPMs at the dawn of the fight, but you probably still will.


    Second change: Right now, your RPPM chance increases with haste. In the future, they will not. To compensate partially for this, the trinkets will have a higher base chance to proc, but any rogue will see less procs of his trinkets, and will do less damage. So will all the other classes, however, but it hits us pretty hard. The only unnerfed things are RPPM procs that do instant damage, like the metagem or the cloak.

  4. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by Mugajak View Post
    Part 1- it's 90,
    It was recently updated to 120 seconds.

  5. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by Verain View Post
    They are all becoming much weaker, but this is for all damage specs.

    The first change is this: on live, when you don't see a proc, your trinket gets grumpy, and wants to proc more and more. After five minutes, it reaches max grump, and will almost assuredly proc right away. The change is, the trinkets will always believe they have gone two minutes without proccing, never five, never 10 seconds, when you pull a raid boss. This actually doesn't affect rogues that much- our trinkets all have a pretty high procrate. But it means that a warlock won't be able to count on a prompt proc of his 100% crit trinket.

    Change to you: Pretty much nothing. You'll maybe not see both RPPMs at the dawn of the fight, but you probably still will.


    Second change: Right now, your RPPM chance increases with haste. In the future, they will not. To compensate partially for this, the trinkets will have a higher base chance to proc, but any rogue will see less procs of his trinkets, and will do less damage. So will all the other classes, however, but it hits us pretty hard. The only unnerfed things are RPPM procs that do instant damage, like the metagem or the cloak.
    I know that, I'm asking about the damage-procs, a la Haromm's.

  6. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by Kulestu View Post
    I know that, I'm asking about the damage-procs, a la Haromm's.
    The passive chance to cleave is not RPPM and is not affected by haste. The RPPM proc is a stat proc so its proc chance also isn't increased by haste.

  7. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by Coldkil View Post
    - the nerf, which is basically aimed to avoid the "so much damage burst at pull" and will make the first proc to happen not before 120 seconds in the fight (or was it 90? i recall these two numbers but don't remeber which one came before)
    This isn't correct. When Blizzard added RPPM bad luck protection they added a multiplier on proc chance if it had been more than 1.5 times the expected proc interval. This built up out of combat so if you waited a few minutes before the pull it would increase the chance of the trinket proccing so it would generally proc on the pull. This change fixes that value to always be 120 seconds so procs may still occur on the pull but they generally won't have as high of a chance as pre-patch. Blizzard did increase the RPPM value of all T15 and T16 RPPM trinkets and nerfed their duration (proc more often for shorter duration) which will mitigate this change somewhat. To summarize, RPPM trinkets can still proc on the pull but you won't be able to guarantee it by waiting out of combat long enough.
    Fierydemise
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  8. #108
    Honestly as far as trinkets go from what I've seen in the past:

    On use: gets macroed to your beefcake inspiring CD macro has a skill factor of a Ronco Rotisserie where you set it and forget it.
    ICD: get a timer through some sort of mod like tell me when or whatever your poison is and once the CD is down be ready for an almost instantaneous proc so really just knowing that if your CDs are up right now, ICD trinket is up in a few seconds to wait those few seconds and then pop everything at once.
    RPPM: doesn't even get the luxury of a macro and people who tried to monitor them got frustrated and took whatever they had out. By far the "dumbest" trinket model that doesn't even require the skill to macro it with a CD. You equip the trinket and then that's that. Some fights you'll be awesome and other fights you won't that's about it. 0 skill involved. Probably the biggest thing that rppm trinkets include is the feelings of rage and joy of an unstable bi-polar person when your dps sways back and forth faster than a pregnant woman's emotions.

    I just don't understand what they're trying to do with trinkets. Like, what is it that they're trying to accomplish? The older models were complete control/moderate control with a basic understanding of what will happen. But now that's gone and replaced with complete randomness. What's Blizzard's goal of this? Are they trying to make trinkets not as good? Same with what's wrong with people getting procs off the pull? It's fun and people enjoy it. It's even easier to balance around the assumption that people will have crazy dps on the start and then teter off. Now either they balance it around the current model and fight's will be easy/hard based 100% on RNG or if they base it off the new model with a lower dps then it'll either be appropriate/easy depending on people's procs.

    Currently everything is so multiplicative of each other. With all the procs going off assassination rogues are getting over 100k AP easily at the pull combined with then vendetta/shadow blades which even with 0 procs are a pretty beefy damage increase but with the procs they're even stronger and then throw in a wild heroism into the batch and it's just straight obscene. But it's actually pretty predictable. Sure there are things that rogues can have happen that cause their dps to be lower or higher with crits/procs but over all it's pretty standard and is pretty easy to balance around that model. But, with the current ptr iteration if they balance it around trying to get people NOT to proc all over the place off the pull and the fight is balanced with those dps numbers in mind then when your raid gets a raid wide thumbs up on the RNG roll then it'll make the encounter so much easier which to me sounds like a horrible way to balance a fight.

  9. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by Warstar View Post
    [on excessive reliance on the first seconds of a fight] I don't think they solved anything.
    [...]
    Your end dps and place on the charts is totally ruined.
    Just so we're on the same page: I didn't want to imply they fixed much: "they're working on it" could be a better wording for what I was aiming at. As far as rogues are concerned, it isn't even much of a change: we're not guaranteed a proc on the pull, but we still have a very high chance of them activating shortly after.

    I understand meter whoring is a thing, and I completely respect and support those that like to do so. But I don't think the game should be aimed at that goal. Particularly not if the outcome of your meter-topping techniques can be largely resolved in a few seconds (the pull). Current implementation, as you point out, will even increase the deltas between players, making ranking sites an very skewed representation of reality. But I do think the game needs to steer away from that de facto goal that the current meta-game encourages to do: rank. Being competitive is one of the many aspects of the game that we can engage in, but it should not be telegraphed that it is the primarily way to achieve success.

    On an individual frame, we won't have full reliance on what will be the final result of our performance. But ultimately your raid, as a whole, will have enough players for whom the procs align well for encounters to be defeated. I have no idea if this is a good thing or not, but it certainly reinforces the idea that the strength of your raid relies on your peers, and not in the individual performance of each cog in the machine.

    Quote Originally Posted by Warstar View Post
    I just don't understand what they're trying to do with trinkets.
    I don't know either. And we're getting mixed signals all over the place. And I'm just as concerned as everyone about how SoO will pan out. They're moving us out of our comfort zone without a clear direction. As it is today, rppm is 'meh' at best; and somewhat frustrating/annoying on the other end of the spectrum. I very much doubt that's a design goal.

    It's pretty clear at this point that they're monitoring how it works constantly, and making adjustments on things they don't like and possibly didn't predict (like us waiting several minutes before pull). If anything, they're making sure the mechanic makes some basic sense, so they can deploy better things in the future. This is why I do suspect that this is part of a bigger change that we're yet to see. They've tweeted about how the whole 'stack all the things' paradigm that they've designed might not be particularly enticing. So perhaps they want to move away from that. It's an enormous task, which I imagine include some of these steps:
    -make it so players can't infer when their procs will go off.
    -limit our ability to pre-pot.
    -design encounters that encourage bloodlust/hero to be used mid-fight.
    -give spec mechanics that permit delaying cooldowns.

    We already saw how adamantly they defended their idea of combat not stacking ShB/AR. It didn't go through (since it currently makes for a substantial synergetic combo) but they certainly entertained the idea that perhaps spacing out our cooldowns could be seen as a positive thing. They may or may not be onto this: I don't know. But if they do, rppm is a big part of the whole package. It may only apply to procs on gear today: it might affect spec procs in the future. It simply is a mechanic (or framework) within which things can happen.

    All things considered: I do like they're exploring new mechanics. But I'm all the same concerned about this current iteration in which things are not making much sense (pointless and potentially harmful opt-outs, plus huge deltas in player performance for no apparent reason).
    Last edited by nextormento; 2013-08-30 at 02:48 PM.

  10. #110
    having a 200k sustained raid dps difference between 2 pulls because of rng mechanics... it's lovely! I think it was summed up nicely by, i believe it was method as the following summation of their lei shen attempts "If we as a raid got bad procs, we simply couldn't push him hard enough in p1 and it was a wipe."

    Which is infuriating at any level of play...

  11. #111
    Quote Originally Posted by fierydemise View Post
    This isn't correct. When Blizzard added RPPM bad luck protection they added a multiplier on proc chance if it had been more than 1.5 times the expected proc interval. This built up out of combat so if you waited a few minutes before the pull it would increase the chance of the trinket proccing so it would generally proc on the pull. This change fixes that value to always be 120 seconds so procs may still occur on the pull but they generally won't have as high of a chance as pre-patch. Blizzard did increase the RPPM value of all T15 and T16 RPPM trinkets and nerfed their duration (proc more often for shorter duration) which will mitigate this change somewhat. To summarize, RPPM trinkets can still proc on the pull but you won't be able to guarantee it by waiting out of combat long enough.
    Ok i worded it badly but that was my point - the nerf is about avoiding a guaranteed proc at boss pull.

  12. #112
    Quote Originally Posted by Coldkil View Post
    Ok i worded it badly but that was my point - the nerf is about avoiding a guaranteed proc at boss pull.
    Which indeed averages to a nerf, but outlines even more good luck vs bad luck. Stupid way to go about it tbh.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Warstar View Post
    Probably the biggest thing that rppm trinkets include is the feelings of rage and joy of an unstable bi-polar person when your dps sways back and forth faster than a pregnant woman's emotions.
    Totally stealing this as part of my sig.
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  13. #113
    @Nextormento

    The thing about playing a DPS class is that you want to "meter whore" as you put it. That's your job as a DPS class is to punch the bad guy so hard in the face that he shits out a bunch of shiny purples for you to stand around and epeen about while afk in the shrine. There's a difference in meter whoring of say sitting on Horridon the entire fight and then like a rogue pulling every trick out that they can to top the charts and kill the boss that much better.

    As a DPS our job is to stand their and use our abilities to kill the boss. As a rogue we are not a ranged class who gets to see the whole battle from a better perspective and see spells flying at the boss. As a melee we get the job of standing behind the boss staring at his ass the whole fight. The most exciting thing for most DPS is seeing giant numbers flying by on our screen. It's seeing a million crit envenom on Horridon (and telling those lame ass snickering Warlocks to shut up and it's still cool even if we only see it on horridon). It's seeing yourself in a raid environment and adding all those raid buffs and self buffs and effectively blowing your load in the aspiration to push your DPS to the highest you can possibly get it. There's a reason why people will completely regen and reforge everything spending hundreds - well over a thousand gold if shadowcraft says it will net them an amazing 60 dps. As a DPS your job is to 110% play a meter whoring scub bag who might not switch to a new add right away to get a finisher off but switches a few seconds later because it just upped his dps doing that. As long as your not a derp mage standing in fire dying because you're tunneling too much and moving will cause you to lose dps or you completely ignore necessary mechanics of the fight you absolutely want to meter whore as hard as you damn can.

    Which is why people hate nerfs and randomness. If you're a fire mage and you can spike to 600-800k or whatever fire mages are doing on one fight but then the next you barely hit 300k you're going to be pissed off. You know that you can, you've done it multiple times, you know that you're an 800k on the pull type of guy but when you can't hit that dps consistently it's aggravating. And the worse feeling is when you do X dps and you're good at that and then blizzard comes around and nerfs you... it's a horrible feeling.

  14. #114
    There is a distinct distinction (woot, a pun) between meter whoring and being a top DPS deliverer. If you, as a raid team member, don't aim to kill the boss the fastest and hardest way possible you might hold your team back. Epeen stroking is cool, i indulge myself regularly in that most satisfying of vices but legit logs include a kill. Or at least a potential kill.
    A witty saying proves nothing.
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    not quite Batman

  15. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warstar View Post
    I just don't understand what they're trying to do with trinkets.
    Call it tinfoil hat talk, but I believe it might be simplification.

    When you're dealing with a mechanic that worked by strict numbers, ie an ICD, then you could improve your play in a significant enough way with the use of tracking addons. With a system that works on RNG, the improvement through tracking addons is diminished. This puts people on a more level playing field over a long period of time.

    You can then hide this under the guise of "It's fun because you can get lucky, and it all evens out in the end!" and it stops people from min maxing another aspect of their character, which I believe to be one of blizzard's long term goals. I believe they think the game would be a hell of a lot better if people stopped trying to push out every last % of throughput in their character, and I can sort of understand that logic.

    Talent trees were an example of this, I know for rogues ours is perpetually shit, but their goal was to move people out of min maxing builds and more into just playing the game.
    I am the lucid dream
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  16. #116
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryme View Post
    Call it tinfoil hat talk, but I believe it might be simplification.

    When you're dealing with a mechanic that worked by strict numbers, ie an ICD, then you could improve your play in a significant enough way with the use of tracking addons. With a system that works on RNG, the improvement through tracking addons is diminished. This puts people on a more level playing field over a long period of time.

    You can then hide this under the guise of "It's fun because you can get lucky, and it all evens out in the end!" and it stops people from min maxing another aspect of their character, which I believe to be one of blizzard's long term goals. I believe they think the game would be a hell of a lot better if people stopped trying to push out every last % of throughput in their character, and I can sort of understand that logic.

    Talent trees were an example of this, I know for rogues ours is perpetually shit, but their goal was to move people out of min maxing builds and more into just playing the game.
    On that note then they're only a few steps away from making a generic "attack" button and having rogues just stand in melee range to do their damage. And it'd be a toggle so you just have to press it once and then can /afk the rest of the fight. So much of what is a rogue is passive already that it's getting ridiculous.

    People enjoy pushing the line though. That's the difference between playing WoW and playing some stupid game on your phone. If you just want to be a button masher and not do anything go buy an Xbox and play through entire scripted stories in games where you don't have to do anything except press X to move the story along.

    This game doesn't need to have the difficulty of an Asian kid playing invisible Tetris at light speed (it's a thing I've seen it) but it doesn't need to have the dumbed down Xbox guided story game play.

    And some people absolutely love theory crafting. That's their thing. They see a new ability and they get a huge nerd turn on while they start writing out math on a napkin at Denny's.

    And as far as talent trees go I find myself "min/maxing" even more than ever. Previously it was just find the random best talent tree put that in and then have my assassination talent tree and never change it unless I was respecing. Now though I flip flop talents almost on a fight basis so if anything they made talents even more work now.

    Simplification of certain things is fine and in a lot of ways can be huge QoL changes. Other things though just dumb it down too far that it's not even fun anymore. If all your damage was done passively and all you had to do was stand at the boss and press attack to do maximum damage would you still play this game?

  17. #117
    -snip-

    I'm wrong.
    Last edited by Dropndestroyrr; 2013-08-31 at 08:04 PM.
    Dropndestroy | i7-3770k 4.6Ghz | EVGA GTX 680 SC Signature+ SLI | ASUS Maximus V Formula | G.Skill 16gb 2400 | AX850

  18. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by Dropndestroyrr View Post
    Can we stop with this ridiculous notion that playing a rogue is basically "/afk"? It isn't as simple as that. Just because Deadly Poison is our top damage doesn't mean we stand there auto-attacking the whole time.
    You know something is wrong when the Simcraft model which 50% of the time skips the right ability in the priority list gets results which differ by 5-10% from the perfect-executed one.
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  19. #119
    Quote Originally Posted by Dropndestroyrr View Post
    Can we stop with this ridiculous notion that playing a rogue is basically "/afk"? It isn't as simple as that. Just because Deadly Poison is our top damage doesn't mean we stand there auto-attacking the whole time.
    I never said it was. Just with more and more abilities being 100% passive it's going that way.

    Assassination doesn't even have to maintain SnD anymore for crying out loud. Currently we mash mut til 5 cp then envenom, keep rupture up 100% of the time and then push for as high of an envenom up time as possible. Woot 3 button rotation.

    Don't get me wrong I like the assassination style of play. It's not 100% dumbed down yet but if everything that blizz does is to "simplify stuff" then it might as well be /afk in the future.

    As for your complaining of me saying that rogues are an /afk class... assassination is easy. By far the easiest class out there and at the same time it brings amazing damage so please don't try and make playing assassination to be some giant chess match where your massive intellect is what makes you do such great damage. It's not as bad as cata arcane mages but it's no where near something like affliction or even demo locks.

    The fact of the mater is that assassination rogues have no way in the current model to separate a competent rogue to a great rogue other than luck and gear. There's nothing that an assassination rogue can do that makes them amazing or bad other than a string of good luck on RPPM trinkets. We have no reaction abilities. We have no control of anything. They even took out lining up CDs with ICD trinkets.

    If you have some magic trick that makes you do a shit ton more damage than the next assassination rogue please share so that the community can grow and be better over all. Other wise just admit it to yourself that you play an easy spec.

  20. #120
    -snip-

    I'm wrong.
    Last edited by Dropndestroyrr; 2013-08-31 at 08:04 PM.
    Dropndestroy | i7-3770k 4.6Ghz | EVGA GTX 680 SC Signature+ SLI | ASUS Maximus V Formula | G.Skill 16gb 2400 | AX850

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