Blizzard does not balance hunter damage around the top 5% of players

[Rackfu]

do you have any logs of you playing a hunter and doing good? since is so faceroll to do so.

idk why would you think that playing a lock is any hard to do. you think tracking dots is any hard?

do you really think that destruction is any harder than survival?
do you really think that demo is any harder than BM?

fyi yeah you are trying to be a smartass buddy, comming here saying hunters are too easy to play when you have no logs or any proff of said thing yeah you are.

Really? Now people are expected to link logs just to prove something as minor as stating that they think one class is easier to play than another?

I mean.... what the hell would it prove? I guess I can link a log showing my hunter beating the warlock in my raid group when I know that Warlock can play as well as me when he is on his hunter..... But then you would expect me to dig up a link to a log proving that we do similar dps when we are both on our hunters.

And, YES.... I do think both BM and Surv are easier to play than any of the Warlock specs. You don't have to believe that, but I think most people would agree with me.

[Perrito]

I don't mind Hunters being a theoretical 10th best dps in the game if the gap between 1st & 10th is ~5%. That 5% difference might matter to Method but to the rest of us it means we're close enough that we feel like we benefit our raid rather than being a burden.

5% diference can be achieved by luck on procs or good play, sadly this isnt true atm we are not even close 5% from top dps atm. this is the problem. this is why hunters are saying we cant compete in dps cant compete in utility.

the OP dont get it because he just dosnt play at the same level other players do, i do not play at the same level of most hunters that post here do, i respect their opinión on the class and on top of that i been in ptr done almost every boss but garrosh (10 or 25) because i couldnt come. idk how they got their testing done to come to the conclusión we were fine for the longest time our 2pc t15 was bugged and it was procing every cobra shot, if you were and took the new tier piece and just spamed arcane shot you would do more dps than if you do your regular rotation, so idk where they come with their bs of you are fine while nerfing us a lot and buff our main shot just for 5%.

the nerf of arcane shot is huge, 50% more focus per 15% more damage. yeah thats not a buff thats a straigh nerf.
readiness.
AMoC 40% buff still a nerf.
deterence 2 charge system, nerf.
lynx rush not even buffed as AMoC is a nerf.
no buff on level 90 talents nerf.

on top of all this the Little things that made hunter be there mid pack and a strong competitor to some hybrids like our trinkets "doublé diping on haste" went to the ground.

we were mid of the pack but with all this nerfs on top of RPPM where do we stand now? let me give you a hint, basement.

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Really? Now people are expected to link logs just to prove something as minor as stating that they think one class is easier to play than another?

I mean.... what the hell would it prove? I guess I can link a log showing my hunter beating the warlock in my raid group when I know that Warlock can play as well as me when he is on his hunter..... But then you would expect me to dig up a link to a log proving that we do similar dps when we are both on our hunters.

And, YES.... I do think both BM and Surv are easier to play than any of the Warlock specs. You don't have to believe that, but I think most people would agree with me.

is easy to play so it should be easy to have logs to prove that. if you come here with a log where you are dead last on the dps meter because you played hunterwhackamole dosnt prove that hunters are not that easy.

i can go to the DK fórums and clain the same since i play my dk and do good. i can go to the warlocks fórums and claim the same because i play my lock on my alt run and do ok, same with mage same with pretty much every class i have to 90 and do good even if i only do LFR on said alt.

dont you see where im going? the fact you think hunter is easy to play dosnt mean you are right. is like ppl saying hunters are easy to go get 2500 rating but you dont see them going into arenas with their hunter getting said ranks.

[Rackfu]

the quality of the player you balance around is the ceiling. it's the theoretical maximum to expect

balance around the average player and the ceiling becomes easy to hit (boring to play, no separation between a good and bad player, etc) and you STILL get 10/10 performance from the best players, so their max is the max the class can expect to hit

when that max is too low, the damn average player doesn't benefit from it. your whole argument is fucking idiotic and it seems like you're trying to come across as an intellectual but you're not intelligent enough to even present a logical argument lol

so pathetic

They are balancing around the vast majority or players instead of a very small number of them.... They rely on monthly subscriptions after all and making most of the people feel like the game is reasonably balanced is a smart financial move.

And yes, they could try and balance around everyone (elite, good, bad...) but they would pretty much have to make the classes all too similar.

[Perrito]

the quality of the player you balance around is the ceiling. it's the theoretical maximum to expect

balance around the average player and the ceiling becomes easy to hit (boring to play, no separation between a good and bad player, etc) and you STILL get 10/10 performance from the best players, so their max is the max the class can expect to hit

when that max is too low, the damn average player doesn't benefit from it. your whole argument is fucking idiotic and it seems like you're trying to come across as an intellectual but you're not intelligent enough to even present a logical argument lol

so pathetic

at least give him the benefit of the doubt. lets say he is so good that he plays his hunter at his potential, for his gear for his ILVL is so easy he can do it, i just want to see proof of that being acomplish.

[Timdall]

A hunter and say Mage with the same ilvl should be able to produce the same dps on an average fight in that tier. Yes skill plays part but overall every class should be able to achieve the same dps. well to me that what every one want, the ability to achieve the same dps as others in an average boss fight. Not linger in the middle pack with little possibility of achieving this on any fight.

Also hunter do need a raid cd, I only bring the odd pet buff and aspect of pack for wipe run in's. traps and md Are rarely used, so while my guild know I only dps I feel I do not contribute to the raid group.

I am not in a 13/13 guild, and also my dps is about middle top but that understandable as not in full hc gear. Even now I notice my dps falling behind as the raid group gear improves.

Also I thought blizzard wanted the game to be bring the player not the class but we seem to be more of an exception to this rule.

[Bisso]

For difficulty of the class, none of the class needs a degree anyway. I would have a hard time saying hunter is easier or harder, as hunter have become a second nature so obviously it feels super easy, but my dps alts, while I need to refresh myself of the rotation and the cooldowns, I catch up in matters of minutes.

For the debate over Blizzard trying or not to make WoW competitive: If they wanted WoW to have competitive PVE AND PVP, the only way to do it without making every class the same, would be to remove gear all together. No item level, no progression, no gear procs, every hunter have the same stats, every mage have the same stats, then Blizzard tune the numbers so everything look about the same, at which point, it becomes a real competitive environment where only the player understanding of his class and the mechanics of the fight is taken into account (along with some encounter design that would benefit certain type of dps over another).

That's why LoL, Dota, StarCraft can work, without having the same units/characters everywhere. Gear brings to many variables, they can only balance towards a certain range of ilvl, and it has to be redone every time there's new gear lvl available.

[Katchii]

My belief is if a job's purpose in a raid is to DPS, it should be balanced around that purpose, not what theoretical or actual utility it brings unless they are going to start designing bosses or other raid mechanics that require that specific utility.

Blizzard has said that they want to promote a more "bring the player, not the class" mentality so I don't see them changing raid design enough to cater to specific classes.

Due to this, all DPS classes should be within ~5% of each other at the max level of skill and gear, because they're supposed to be doing the same job. If this is not the case, Blizzard has failed at it's supposed "bring the player, not the class" design.

[Rackfu]

Due to this, all DPS classes should be within ~5% of each other at the max level of skill and gear, because they're supposed to be doing the same job. If this is not the case, Blizzard has failed at it's supposed "bring the player, not the class" design.

I agree.... they should be.

But there really is no good way to do it without making all classes and specs scale the same with gear and also homogenizing talents to the point where all the classes are too similar.

There are just too many variables involved to get all classes and specs within 5%

[Kissthebaby]

the nerf of arcane shot is huge, 50% more focus per 15% more damage. yeah thats not a buff thats a straigh nerf.
readiness.
AMoC 40% buff still a nerf.
deterence 2 charge system, nerf.
lynx rush not even buffed as AMoC is a nerf.
no buff on level 90 talents nerf.
.

also people dont realize that both dire beast and fervor got a little nerf too because we no longer get 2 in our opener anymore, also the arcane shot change makes thrill of the hunt almost mandatory. blizzard really has no clue what they are doing with the class. but hey they will take care of it next xpac.....

[dzidek]

Op said that the quality of posts in this forum has dropped significantly over the past few weeks due to complains. And what did he do? Wrote a topic complaining about the complaining. Cool story

[Katchii]

There are just too many variables involved to get all classes and specs within 5%

I can't say one way or the other, because it's obviously pretty difficult/ tricky to do this, but they have the information/ data they need to accomplish it, I'm just not sure they're making the right calls when it comes to tweaking numbers.

[Deleted]

Imho, OP is actually correct suggesting that its reasonably simple to pull competitive numbers as a hunter with moderate skill. The overall dumbing down the class over longer period of time is the reason why we cannot be balanced in highend raiding. Removal of stuff such as stutter stepping, aspect dancing, readiness and so forth means that theres nothing overly complicated in raiding as a hunter, especially if you play SV. 4 button rotation is enough to be a LFR/N hero and our aoe 'rotation' is more of a joke really. Combined with no restrictions to movement, you wont have to worry about cancelling your casts either(albeit same could be said about locks with KJC these days). Its really unfortunate situation to be in but i dont expect to see any real solutions until the promised class revamp in 6.0.





/OT: rolled warlock alt and enjoying it.

[Deleted]

Well, sadly OP is right. for the sake of a competitive game, it should be balance around the maximun potential of each class. But for the sake of the business, it is balanced around the majority of the players, not the best. Balancing around the top 5% would be unwise, because it would break the business model and make WoW a non competitive
product.

[Spiralphoenix]

Balancing around the lower 95% of players, and balancing the top 5% of players, are not mutually exclusive things. They should both be balanced. Saying that balancing the top 5% cannot be done without keeping the other 95% balanced is ridiculous. It's done for everyone else, there's no reason it can't be done for us.

[Deleted]

The quality of posts in this forum has dropped significantly over the past few weeks (no fault of the moderators) due to a perceived dislike of the hunter class by the developers and the belief (which is probably true) that hunter dps will be on the low end in 5.4 for progression guilds.

I think this is mostly due to the inflated number of 13/13 HC players on this forum compared to the overall player population. They are only looking at this problem through a narrow prism.

The hunters I see complaining the most are in guilds where everyone is of similar or equal skill. That is impossible to balance around unless Blizzard wants to make every class a virtual clone of each other.

If they did somehow manage to balance all the classes around just the top 5% of players, then the classes would be unbalanced for the remaining 95%.

Why?

Because some classes require significantly more skill in order to reach the theoretical output limit.

Some classes, like hunters, can put out 80+% of their max potential damage with just moderate skill and knowledge of the class. This is due to almost no movement penalty, no DoTs to pay attention to (SS is auto refreshed and BA is just used on cooldown) and very few dps cooldowns.

Other classes, Warlocks/Boomkins/Etc, require much more skill to hit 80% of their potential. DoTs, movement issues, cooldowns, special resources to watch/etc.....

Now, when we start talking about these top 5% of guilds/players, they are pretty much playing at max potential. Top ranked players don't have issues with movement or watching DoTs... So, those classes that are harder to max out, suddenly start pulling away and making hunters worry about losing raid slots.


Yes, this is a problem, but not one that can be fixed easily if at all (class homogenization might be the only way).

It cannot be fixed easily because Blizzard balances dps around those players who are progressing through normal modes and maybe a few months into the tier, heroics. The players who are less skilled..... The players who can make hunters compete easily for the top spots in damage done.



TL;DR: Blizzard balances around players who are progressing through normals and heroics at an average pace as opposed to the players who full clear heroics within a month or two. Those "less skilled" players are able to get more out of classes that require less skill than other classes that are more difficult to master, leading to classes that are balanced for most people, but unbalanced for "elite" players.


PS: Let's stop with the elitist shit. Just because you are 13/13 does not give you a right to just blatantly disregard someone else who you view as less skilled.

I agree these forums have devolved into thread after thread of QQ.

1. Hunters are not Dog like some players think, but considering the lack of utility they provide it is unfair that hunter dps is not competitive with mage, lock, rogue who are also pures and bring more utility in the form of raid cd's (Soulstone, Demo gate, Healthstones, Shadowbomb increased healing, Timewarp) let alone their own personal cd's.

2. Regardless of hunter performance all specs are broken to a degree, we require tweaking (usually in the form of AotH buff) nearly every other patch. Buffing our Agility further removes depth from our class since our secondary stats are so far behind. No haste breakpoints to work towards, no alternative playstyle depending on stacking of certain secondary stat etc.

3. The argument that hunters enjoy limitless mobility therefore should be penalised is moot. The most movement heavy fight I can think of is Tortos and we are not no.1 on that fight. Other classes do just fine on the move. I would rather we had Sniper trainer back with a significant damage buff for keeping it up or bring back aspect of the fox in return for real damage while stationary if this a reason for our mediocre damage.

4. The reason hunters see the significant gap in damage at hc level again is down to our scaling which is poor/borderline broken design. I could reply with; hunters are the lfr/normal class, when you want to do HC's just reroll. Forget about fairness, is that even how a game should work?

5. Boomkins do not require significant skill. Affliction locks and feral druids the two specs with arguably the 'hardest' rotations to manage I would agree to a degree should excel in dps, slightly. Mages however one of if not the easiest class with the simplest rotation/priority list is and has been consistently above and beyond and that isn't even comparing against the broken 5.3 fire mage spec that some people here wrongly gauge their hunter against! And let's not talk about the simplicity of Rogue rotation. So again moot point.

6. Hunters coming on the forums to express their dissatisfaction with the state of hunter because they are playing at a certain level where they see gaping discrepancies in damage in comparison to other classes may come across (some of them) as rude, but it's mainly because of how painfully obvious the problem is with hunters and that you don't even recognise the extent of it that posters here are unlikely to take you seriously. Unfortunately most people are unable to control themselves and are impassioned when responding to you or people like because they care about their class! It does not mean they are elitist!

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I posted this on the other thread in the hunter forum and hope i am not in violation of any rules. It is a constructive post that addresses hunters in pve and pvp so it is relevant to the whole hunter community, I urge you to take a look and if you are in the US show your support, assuming you agree.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...8718556?page=1

[mmotroof]

They are balancing around the vast majority or players instead of a very small number of them.... They rely on monthly subscriptions after all and making most of the people feel like the game is reasonably balanced is a smart financial move.

And yes, they could try and balance around everyone (elite, good, bad...) but they would pretty much have to make the classes all too similar.

you still don't understand. it doesn't matter who you balance around, when 100% of hunter dps = 85% of mage dps, you end up with good mages or average mages doing more than good hunters or average hunters

hunters want buffs to compete with mages, which translates to every level

look, i'm gonna be blunt, you're not intelligent enough to make any competent argument. you don't really understand the problem or even what you're trying to say. just stop

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Well, sadly OP is right. for the sake of a competitive game, it should be balance around the maximun potential of each class. But for the sake of the business, it is balanced around the majority of the players, not the best. Balancing around the top 5% would be unwise, because it would break the business model and make WoW a non competitive
product.

you're as dumb as he is. numbers balance has nothing to do with player skill, the rotation itself is how you bridge the gap between bads and goods. it's why they changed dot mechanics, made nukes hit harder, etc

that's how you make idiots better, the numbers mean shit if they're still required to clip dots. the mechanic is what you change to bring bads in line with the better players, but that only makes the better players bored and can NEVER completely close the gap

[Tsuna]

I agree.... they should be.

But there really is no good way to do it without making all classes and specs scale the same with gear and also homogenizing talents to the point where all the classes are too similar.

There are just too many variables involved to get all classes and specs within 5%

Agreement, especially on the idea that the variables in raids make it too close to impossible to realistically achieve perfect balance. Every raid boss is different, mechanics that force movement, stacking, demand interrupts, control or kill adds, use gimmicky vehicles, benefit from boss buffs, suffer from debuffs. To balance ALL 11 classes (much less ALL dps specs in general) is just ludicrous. I absolutely detest math and would rather smash my head with a brick than deal with the spreadsheets and calculations that theorycrafters and blizzards devs go through, but I give them credit for getting the game this far. I can play with my normal + a few heroics guild on my Com rogue and be competitive, perhaps not always top, but able to pull through sometimes with a bit of luck on my side.

The game in it's current state is a far cry from the hideous times of Vanilla and BC where numerous specs were just NOT USED, or were so undervalued that players straight up lost their raid spots because their very presence made the raids too hard (Fucking, Mu'ru).

In the end the best thing we can contribute is being part of the beta testing to give good and easy to read data for blizz to use to balance as much as they can. After that, the dps charts really are somewhat of a dice roll to see who's the next flavor of the now.

[Rackfu]

6. Hunters coming on the forums to express their dissatisfaction with the state of hunter because they are playing at a certain level where they see gaping discrepancies in damage in comparison to other classes may come across (some of them) as rude, but it's mainly because of how painfully obvious the problem is with hunters and that you don't even recognise the extent of it that posters here are unlikely to take you seriously. Unfortunately most people are unable to control themselves and are impassioned when responding to you or people like because they care about their class! It does not mean they are elitist!

I understand the frustration, but it is elitist when people completely ignore another person's viewpoint or opinion just because they are not 13/13 HC or not ranked on some obscure dps ranking website.

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....

Elitism defined.

[Slot]

I can't say one way or the other, because it's obviously pretty difficult/ tricky to do this, but they have the information/ data they need to accomplish it, I'm just not sure they're making the right calls when it comes to tweaking numbers.

The funny part is that they constantly ask people to link or prove via logs on dps. But yet they will not release their internal logs that they use because "people will spend too much time trying to disprove our log system". Double standard are awesome.

I can't wait to tweet GC or Lore when we get mid patch buff because of their shitty testing.

[Deleted]

If Blizzard were to balance classes around 95% of the playerbase, all specs would be a 1 button rotation with no special resource to manage. I don't know about you but I wouldn't want to play that game even if I didn't have 13/13 HC.