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  1. #41
    Herald of the Titans Eliot123's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Volant View Post
    wtf is up with your sig.?
    Wha'?
    /10chr
    When in a hole, keep digging!

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Eliot123 View Post
    Wha'?
    /10chr
    I don't know how to better ask that. Perhaps the shortening of "signature" confused you? Sorry

  3. #43
    Herald of the Titans Eliot123's Avatar
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    What *is* up with my sig? :P

    (and more importantly, why are we discussing it here? )
    Last edited by Eliot123; 2013-08-25 at 07:17 PM.
    When in a hole, keep digging!

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Digger Dave View Post
    Horridon
    Enlighten me which add does not die within ~30seconds, or how do you want keep using FS while handling the massive amount of LS charges generated by Cl?

    Maybe those Frozen Warlods live long enough, but then again, i question it's overall impact.

    Or are you talking about last phase? Where multi dotting for ~45 has a close to 0 impact on dps?

    Quote Originally Posted by Digger Dave View Post
    Council
    Between cleaving with Cl and switching on those spirits i see hardly a point to keep up Fs on a 2nd target without neglecting a decent amount of LS charges, maybe when Malakk & Sul are dead, but then the Encounter is pretty much over at this point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Digger Dave View Post
    Tortos
    Between switching on Turtles & AoE'ing those Bats, i'm not sure if it's really useful to multi dot those Crystal.

    Usefulness VERY questionable to me.


    Quote Originally Posted by Digger Dave View Post
    Primordius
    If you have an Elemental, you should just drag Primordius around to stack them up and then spam Cl.

    Quote Originally Posted by Digger Dave View Post
    Ra-den
    I don't know how other guilds handle this add, we just kill it asap.

    That leaves Megaera, Animus and Twins.

    Megaera:

    Currently it may be a minor Dps gain, personally i would have never found the time during Progress to multi dot since those Nether wyrms were a huge pain back there and you had to use Cl & Fulmination to finish these guys quickly.

    Animus:

    I'll let that one count

    Twins:

    Though Multi dot works, it's use largely limited by the fact that you can AoE / Cleave during P1, unable to multidot in P2 and are able to cleave in P3.


    Multi dotting remains a wet dream for most Elemental Shaman in my view, even if it's dps gain, it is really just a minor one.
    Too often, we are mistaken for druidic types. perhaps that's true for some shaman, but do not let yourself be plagued by the ignorant belief that we are always peaceful.
    Nothing about what I do is harmonious. I command the elements to my will. There is nothing offered in return. I would have it no other way.


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  5. #45
    The Patient Starsinn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    No, they do not mean the same thing.

    This is why, when evaluating what spells are highest on priority lists.........
    Thanks Endus, thats what i wanted to say. I just didnt have the willpower to punch it all into a 4 inch screen on my phone.
    Being constructive feels good. You should try it.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    Enlighten me which add does not die within ~30seconds, or how do you want keep using FS while handling the massive amount of LS charges generated by Cl?

    Maybe those Frozen Warlods live long enough, but then again, i question it's overall impact.

    Or are you talking about last phase? Where multi dotting for ~45 has a close to 0 impact on dps?



    Between cleaving with Cl and switching on those spirits i see hardly a point to keep up Fs on a 2nd target without neglecting a decent amount of LS charges, maybe when Malakk & Sul are dead, but then the Encounter is pretty much over at this point.



    Between switching on Turtles & AoE'ing those Bats, i'm not sure if it's really useful to multi dot those Crystal.

    Usefulness VERY questionable to me.




    If you have an Elemental, you should just drag Primordius around to stack them up and then spam Cl.



    I don't know how other guilds handle this add, we just kill it asap.

    That leaves Megaera, Animus and Twins.

    Megaera:

    Currently it may be a minor Dps gain, personally i would have never found the time during Progress to multi dot since those Nether wyrms were a huge pain back there and you had to use Cl & Fulmination to finish these guys quickly.

    Animus:

    I'll let that one count

    Twins:

    Though Multi dot works, it's use largely limited by the fact that you can AoE / Cleave during P1, unable to multidot in P2 and are able to cleave in P3.


    Multi dotting remains a wet dream for most Elemental Shaman in my view, even if it's dps gain, it is really just a minor one.
    the only add I would even consider multi dotting on horridon would have to be my pink dino the rest of the adds ur CL'ing so makes 0 sense to fs those

  7. #47
    Horridon : you can keep FS on Horridon himself and on the beast master (don't remember the name) who spawns at 30%
    Council : you can FS the 2 most important targets to maximize your single target burst thanks a few additional procs. If you CL (which you should most of the time) you'll waste a lot of LS charges anyway.
    Tortos : Yeah you could FS the turtles but you'd be better off cleaving the bats..
    Primordius : Even the big blobs (HC) don't live long enough so no.
    Mageara : I wouldn't bother.
    Animus : Definitely.
    Twins : You SHOULD multi dot in HC.
    Ra-den : Hard to justify the hassle.

    OP : I'd really love if they made Ele Blast baseline for Ele, it fits the rotation/spec perfectly. I loved the burst feeling and Ascendance up until 5.2 when I realized how limiting it is for balance. Being that bursty has a lot of implications for PVP and since Blizz is so stubborn and don't want to make different balance for PVE and PVP, it impacts PVE as well. Hell it almost feels like LvB is our new filler and EB is our signature spell now..
    Last edited by Recom; 2013-08-26 at 02:34 PM.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Recom View Post
    Twins : You SHOULD multi dot in HC.
    Fairly certain this differs based on raid size, eg. with 10 man in P1 you had to kite Suen around the room bringing out the lurkers, whereas in 25 man you could just keep her stationary allowing for chain lightning. P3 for us in progression was more about keeping Lu'lin away from the raid for tidal force, so I had to multi dot then compared to people who can chain lightning.

    Quote Originally Posted by Recom View Post
    OP : I'd really love if they made Ele Blast baseline for Ele, it fits the rotation/spec perfectly. I loved the burst feeling and Ascendance up until 5.2 when I realized how limiting it is for balance. Being that burst has a lot of implications for PVP and since Blizz is so stubborn and don't want to make different balance for PVE and PVP, it impact PVE as well. Hell it almost feels like LvB is our new filler and EB is our signature spell now..
    I'd really like to see Elemental blast baseline for elemental, as well as an Ice element spell added, since we are masters of the elements (frost shock doesn't cut it for me). Maybe like an ice shard channeled spell that increases as damage per tick as it throws more shards at the target eg. 1 shard, 2 shard, 3 shard etc.

  9. #49
    I feel like we are where we should DPS-wise. I am able to compete for best dps in guild @ raids (Playing in world second 10 man guild). Tho I feel that seering totem and FS meta-mechanics might need a change. As of now my Searing totem does 5.5 k dps average and thats like 0.22 % Average. THat is RLY bad. The single target fights are a bit of a struggle aswell sometimes.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    No, they do not mean the same thing.

    This is why, when evaluating what spells are highest on priority lists, the primary value used is damage per cast time. Not per second; the DPS of a spell is totally irrelevant here. Just the damage dealt, and the cast time to trigger that damage. This is why Searing Totem is so high on Elemental's priority list; it provides more damage for the cast time spent casting it than almost any other spell you have. It only provides a small amount of DPS because it's effectively a 60-second DoT that can't be on more than one target at a time, meaning you only cast it once a minute. That's not relevant to whether you should use it, though, because once every minute, it's the strongest spell you could cast at that moment. Because its DPCT is through the roof.

    I mean, if you're okay just AFKing and hitting random buttons, rather than trying to actually push your DPS as much as you can, sure, stop casting ST. But you're not the kind of person, then, who should be participating in class optimization discussions, or discussing top-tier raiding.

    Because at that level, 1-3% of your DPS is huge. That's the kind of margin that can make or break your performance. It's about almost doubling how far behind Elemental is from the average, currently. If you don't care about your performance, that's fine, but plenty of players do care about their performance, particularly when their spec is already struggling a bit.
    Why are you even bringing this up? I was replying to a post that said I shouldn't confuse damage done vs dps. Those 2 are completely related. Damage per second = damage done divided by fight length, period. There was no mention of damage per cast time which is a completely different thing.

    I also nowhere said at all that you shouldn't drop it or keep it up. Actually quite the opposite (in both my posts), yet you conveniently didn't bother to quote that. Keeping up searing totem is a dps increase, NOBODY here is argueing the opposite. My only point was that it is probably one of the most forgiving mechanics across pretty much all specs from what I know (mostly because of the low interaction with anything and how long it lasts). Dropping it every 1:20 instead of every 1 minute for example is what? 0.5% dps loss? That's pretty much definition of forgiving, which - again - was the only thing I was replying to. Compared to anything else that needs keeping up like flame shock, inquisition, slice and dice, etc. it's gonna be barely worth noticing.

    But hey, it's nice to know when you call something forgiving, that people start jumping on you, start assuming things, partially quote posts, read my posts wrong, etc.

    Awesome signature/avatar by Visenna!

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by EruptorNZ View Post
    Fairly certain this differs based on raid size, eg. with 10 man in P1 you had to kite Suen around the room bringing out the lurkers, whereas in 25 man you could just keep her stationary allowing for chain lightning. P3 for us in progression was more about keeping Lu'lin away from the raid for tidal force, so I had to multi dot then compared to people who can chain lightning.
    Yes, sorry I forgot to specify. I was indeed talking about 25m.


    Quote Originally Posted by EruptorNZ View Post
    I'd really like to see Elemental blast baseline for elemental, as well as an Ice element spell added, since we are masters of the elements (frost shock doesn't cut it for me). Maybe like an ice shard channeled spell that increases as damage per tick as it throws more shards at the target eg. 1 shard, 2 shard, 3 shard etc.
    I'm not a big fan of channeled abilities but an offensive water/ice spell ? Why not. Maybe a huge icicle which falls down from above the enemy doing damage in a zone (replacing/improving Earthquake) ?
    I also fell like Earth Shock doesn't feel "earthy" enough. The animation could be different to reflect that it's actually an earth ability and not something that looks like it's an air/electric ability...


    Regarding FS and Searing Totem, it's 2 abilities that basically do the same thing but in a slightly different way. I believe Searing Totem is just an old, outdated mechanic and brings 0 fun. I love my totems but I think it's time the devs remove it entirely and bake it's damage somewhere else, maybe FS ? It would even fit their new vision of totems being strong or utility cooldown (ST is neither).

  12. #52
    Moderator Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Derpette View Post
    Why are you even bringing this up? I was replying to a post that said I shouldn't confuse damage done vs dps. Those 2 are completely related. Damage per second = damage done divided by fight length, period. There was no mention of damage per cast time which is a completely different thing.
    They may be related, but they are not interchangeable. I'm bringing it up, because your entire argument against Searing Totem is based on this fundamental misconception as to how spell value is evaluated.

    I also nowhere said at all that you shouldn't drop it or keep it up. Actually quite the opposite (in both my posts), yet you conveniently didn't bother to quote that. Keeping up searing totem is a dps increase, NOBODY here is argueing the opposite.
    You're pretty dismissive of the value in this post here, which triggered the whole discussion

    In your second post, you again state that it's not really worth dropping at all. In both posts, you specifically mention it's not worth dropping.

    "Not bothering with searing totem at all is what? A 1-3% dps loss max?"
    "if you delay it or not drop it at all you won't even mention it on your dps/damage done" Italics mine, for emphasis.

    You pretty much were arguing that not dropping it is a valid option, and will have a negligible effect.

    My only point was that it is probably one of the most forgiving mechanics across pretty much all specs from what I know (mostly because of the low interaction with anything and how long it lasts). Dropping it every 1:20 instead of every 1 minute for example is what? 0.5% dps loss? That's pretty much definition of forgiving, which - again - was the only thing I was replying to. Compared to anything else that needs keeping up like flame shock, inquisition, slice and dice, etc. it's gonna be barely worth noticing.

    0.5% is huge. We completely reforge our gear to gain 0.5% DPS. We change the recommended rotation over 0.5% DPS differentials. If all you care about is buttonmashing through LFR, sure, 0.5% isn't something to consider, but if you're in heroic progression raiding, you're trying to squeeze out every fraction of a percent you can.

  13. #53
    There really must be a moderator function that tries to find some hidden value in other people's posts. If so, it's not really working if you ask me.

    I specifically mention it's not worth dropping? Where on earth you get that?
    "Not bothering with searing totem at all is what? A 1-3% dps loss max?" -> This reads to you as "it's not worth dropping"? I said it's a dps LOSS to not drop it. L-O-S-S. So when someone says "doing X will give you less dps" you translate that to "omg this poster is advertising to do X". I'm sorry but, reading comprehension much? Also what part of that post was untrue? Is it more than 1-3% dps loss to not drop it at all? If so correct me on that, but afaik my statement wasn't wrong.
    "if you delay it or not drop it at all you won't even mention it on your dps/damage done" -> Again, what is not true about this? I can show you a screenshot from recount from 2 bossfights, under same circumstances etc and ask you which one I used searing totem on and which not. You'll only be able to guess since just a little bit of good/bad luck in procs is already going to be a bigger difference. But yeah, thanks again for partially quoting me, where 2 sentence later I specifically say "Nobody is argueing to NOT use those, it's a dps increase yes." That does indeed really smell like someone argueing not to use it.

    I can also start reading things you never said in your post. Apearantly you think I'm an afk'er and just do lfr, sure. Stop trying to read underlying meanings in people's post and take em for what it is. If anything I said so far is wrong, point me out to it but don't try and correct me on things I never claimed.

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  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Digger Dave View Post
    I just wish they would do some work with searing totem. I think it would be pretty cool if it snapshot and benefited from haste and mastery. Totems are supposed to be the basis of the class, but searing totem in its current state is barely worth using.
    Be nice if that was the case and that when you put it down, it stays down for 60 minutes or at least much longer than what it is currently. Because one minute is pretty silly if you ask me. Just let us throw it down and keep it down.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Derpette View Post
    Why are you even bringing this up? I was replying to a post that said I shouldn't confuse damage done vs dps. Those 2 are completely related. Damage per second = damage done divided by fight length, period. There was no mention of damage per cast time which is a completely different thing.

    I also nowhere said at all that you shouldn't drop it or keep it up. Actually quite the opposite (in both my posts), yet you conveniently didn't bother to quote that. Keeping up searing totem is a dps increase, NOBODY here is argueing the opposite. My only point was that it is probably one of the most forgiving mechanics across pretty much all specs from what I know (mostly because of the low interaction with anything and how long it lasts). Dropping it every 1:20 instead of every 1 minute for example is what? 0.5% dps loss? That's pretty much definition of forgiving, which - again - was the only thing I was replying to. Compared to anything else that needs keeping up like flame shock, inquisition, slice and dice, etc. it's gonna be barely worth noticing.

    But hey, it's nice to know when you call something forgiving, that people start jumping on you, start assuming things, partially quote posts, read my posts wrong, etc.
    You stated DPS and damage done were the same thing, and he was disagreeing with you. He brought up damage per cast time to tell you what is important, as DPS is not important and went on to say why. Unlike many people who just disagree with someone and don't explain why, Endus did. He did however exaggerate on your stance with Searing Totem. I don't believe he was intentionally misquoting, just exaggerating your argument to say well if you're going to ignore Searing Totem for a few seconds you might as well not cast it, because even ignoring it for a few seconds says you don't care about maximizing your performance. While there are times that saving a CD might be worth it, there is never a reason to save Searing Totem. It's a single GCD, can be cast while moving, and is your highest DPCT spell.

    I would also like to point out that Endus is not people and your post seems to jump on him just as much as you think he jumped on you. Endus was simply replying to your post, he wasn't trying to shove anything down your throat. Written word is one of the worst forms of communication because you cannot read emotion save caps lock angry posts.

  16. #56
    Independent of multi dot concerns, they should tone down chain lightning damage and make AoE somehow scale with the absurd amount of Fulmination procs we get :O

    I am sure i proposed it somwhere deep in the depths of the shaman forums, but having earthquake scale with fulmination or having earthshock doing AoE Dmg with fulmination stacks would be awesome!

    edit:
    Or have every fulmination stack > 7 causing a thunderbolt crashing down on our own position (or have a chance to come down at the position of an enemy struck by chain lightning) causing AoE Damage -- although not that awesome, because passive damage.
    They should definitely utilize the thunder animations from Lei Shen's crashing thunder for something like this!

    Ripping apart the ground below our foes' feet and breaking open the sky over their heads should feel more epic as a shaman :<
    Last edited by runey; 2013-08-29 at 02:03 PM.

  17. #57
    Field Marshal johnprescott's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by runey View Post
    they should tone down chain lightning damage
    Chain lightning damage is the reason SoO will be so Awesome! simple, yet effective!

    bring on 5.4!

    p.s, NEVER suggest a nerf to our CL, GM's love nerfing shammy stuff :<

  18. #58
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    I'm fine with the current damage breakdown. I honestly don't care which spell actually contributes the most damage over a period of a fight. What I do care about though is that a large portion of Elemental's damage is locked up in Ascendance. I cannot stress how much I actually hate this cooldown. I am fine with cooldowns like Elemental Mastery like we had in Wrath and Cata but Ascendance is just too much. It is far too bursty for my liking and I would rather see it gone and either replaced with something else or the rest of our normal rotation just buffed up to compensate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jakaroth View Post
    Chain lightning damage is the reason SoO will be so Awesome! simple, yet effective!

    bring on 5.4!

    p.s, NEVER suggest a nerf to our CL, GM's love nerfing shammy stuff :<
    This so much. I was first interested in Elemental back in TBC after playing Thrall in Warcraft 3 simply because I loved the idea of chain lightning and how it felt to use. Never ever nerf my CL :<

  19. #59
    I am Murloc! Volitar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rewn View Post
    I'm fine with the current damage breakdown. I honestly don't care which spell actually contributes the most damage over a period of a fight. What I do care about though is that a large portion of Elemental's damage is locked up in Ascendance. I cannot stress how much I actually hate this cooldown. I am fine with cooldowns like Elemental Mastery like we had in Wrath and Cata but Ascendance is just too much. It is far too bursty for my liking and I would rather see it gone and either replaced with something else or the rest of our normal rotation just buffed up to compensate.




    This so much. I was first interested in Elemental back in TBC after playing Thrall in Warcraft 3 simply because I loved the idea of chain lightning and how it felt to use. Never ever nerf my CL :<
    I remember the day they made the change to CL where it had no cd. All 3 of our Ele Shamans (yes we were such a badass guild we had 3 Ele Shaman in CATA) did nothing but spam CL all night.

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Volitar View Post
    I remember the day they made the change to CL where it had no cd. All 3 of our Ele Shamans (yes we were such a badass guild we had 3 Ele Shaman in CATA) did nothing but spam CL all night.
    I used to spam cl at the target dummies when i had to kill a few minutes, just to fish for the highest single hit, or the max number of proccs, or in an effort to make other eles join me. Sounds soooo mindnumbingly boring, but it actually lots of fun ^^

    Don't change chainlightning!

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