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  1. #41
    Stood in the Fire JV Chequer's Avatar
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    What I like in binding is the "almost certainly" combo with Dark Soul, the ICD is pretty near, that evaluates more the trinket, in practice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by almara2512 View Post
    the reason why the 18207 haste breakpoint is so good is bcoz you hit not 1 but 2 breakpoints at the same time, getting an extra tick from both corruption AND UA so it is a really good point to reach but it comes down to preference tbh.
    UA and 2tp it's not that important in multi-target fights, corruption it's great indeed, but I don't think that's worth of 5k less mastery.
    But if u are closer of 18,2k break than 13,7k, the exchange is valid.

    It's all dependent of your gear and your playstile, in the end.
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  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Woz View Post
    You hit 2 breakpoints with 13737 as well (Agony@13157 and Corruption@13737).

    And to expand on KTT vs Bindings - I can certainly see the merits of KTT being extremely good on multi-target but the value of Bindings is that it allows you to hit your haste caps at a much lower value than you normally would be able to hit them. Even if you look at the 13737 Haste set-up it frees you up from having to get an extra 1150 haste (allowing more mastery) and even larger difference when you look towards the 18207 breakpoint (1500 haste).

    Realistically it seems as though it will be down to the same case in T15 being "which trinkets can you get first for progression - THEN look for the absolute best" and progression wise, Bindings comes off the first boss.
    well technically, you hit 1 BP at 13157 and another at 13737, you'll still hit 2 different BP in one go at 18207, but i get your point.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by almara2512 View Post
    well technically, you hit 1 BP at 13157 and another at 13737, you'll still hit 2 different BP in one go at 18207, but i get your point.
    Absolutely, but the reason you go for 13737 is because you hit both. But anyway - this is mostly speculation since we don't really have any solid numbers to crunch but just going off of a fight to fight basis we'll end up (likely) wanting more mastery simply because that's how we do the damages multidotting (even as Demo).

  4. #44
    idd, and staying the 13737 BP will allow you to get more mastery.

  5. #45
    Woz, care to explain why you think 4pc T16 is that horrible for Affliction? There seems to be quite a bit of opinions in either direction regarding this.

    Just by looking at it you can see that it will result in higher Haunt-uptime, as well as more Haunts (which basically hit as hard as Chaos Bolts on the PTR atm). Seems to me like some people simply think of this bonus as '10% more shards', which is not the case. You'd think it would be highly sought after.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Teknicon View Post
    Woz, care to explain why you think 4pc T16 is that horrible for Affliction? There seems to be quite a bit of opinions in either direction regarding this.

    Just by looking at it you can see that it will result in higher Haunt-uptime, as well as more Haunts (which basically hit as hard as Chaos Bolts on the PTR atm). Seems to me like some people simply think of this bonus as '10% more shards', which is not the case. You'd think it would be highly sought after.
    It's actually less than 10% more shards if you use any SB. Also gaining shards from Drain Soul devalues it a bit, because you will a) be capped for some time b) have enough shards to Haunt anyway.

    Add to that the fact that with 10% Nightfall it is not unlikely to have close to 100% uptime on your main target Haunt already. Obviously you can Haunt other targets, but those are less valuable because you won't channel MG/DS over them.

    On the other side of the equation, you can get 2 extra pieces with haste/mastery/hit (which turns out as haste/mastery whichever you favor more, in other words your very best stat) instead of crit. Additionally they can be Warforged unlike set pieces.

    Also there are others in the conqueror group with powerful 4sets, in fact I think all other priest/paladin/warlock specs have a better 4set than Affliction. So if you go for 4set and are not the loot master, you might very well be stuck with crit pieces for a long time without even getting to the set bonus.

    Ultimately we need a solid simulation to be sure, but all these reasons are why me and many other warlocks won't go for 4set.

  7. #47
    The idea is the crit on the pieces you'd HAVE to wear on top of not being able to get warforged pieces in those slots makes it not worth.

    The bigger concern is *do I feel this 4p is a substantial gain for progression, or would those 2 tier pieces be better spent getting another raid member their 2p / 4p?* and in this instance our 4p is extremely lackluster.

    I personally along with all the locks I've spoken to / looked at figure we're going to be doing double 2p and or 2p t16 + biggest ilvl increase.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Baconeggcheese View Post
    The idea is the crit on the pieces you'd HAVE to wear on top of not being able to get warforged pieces in those slots makes it not worth.

    The bigger concern is *do I feel this 4p is a substantial gain for progression, or would those 2 tier pieces be better spent getting another raid member their 2p / 4p?* and in this instance our 4p is extremely lackluster.

    I personally along with all the locks I've spoken to / looked at figure we're going to be doing double 2p and or 2p t16 + biggest ilvl increase.
    T15 2p would actually gain a bit of value from the new AD, since you have a bit more uptime on Dark Soul. On the other hand we will probably have enough shards to maintain Haunt on our main target anyway, meaning the extra duration could turn out to just mean a little more Haunts on secondary targets. Personally I will have no issue with dropping it as soon as higher ilvl gear shows up.

  9. #49
    Yeah like I said, double 2p or highest ilvl.

    The 4p *could* be decent on any number of the multitarget fights since you spend soooooo much time soul swapping. SS inhale > switch target > haunt > exhale > repeat makes you run out of shards fairly quick BUT I still don't see it worth getting our 4p over other people getting their 2p.

  10. #50
    I feel like with as much multidotting/soulswapping (note: not SB:SS) as will be going on simply stacking the highest ilvl of haste/mastery is going to be best. I'd almost certainly pass to healers on tier (and probably shadowpriests too ) and will gobble up offset haste/mastery pieces...especially for slots that I have crit on now (eg raden boots/belt, meg neck, etc)

    If you are fast flashing DS onto a dying add shards are not a problem. Plus if you are smart with haunt/shard management its even less of a thing. Plugging away single target is really becoming less and less relevant though it still has its place in theorycraft.

  11. #51
    Generally more or less what these other guys have said. The 4P isn't great, isn't awful. That being said with how SS works now and just the sheer amount of multidotting fights there will be the unwanted (tier pieces) crit isn't necessary since as is the 2P has a near 100% uptime. The mastery gain alone from alternate gear is goin to be huge. For reference I'll make up a gear set using the tier pieces to show the discrepancy between using it and not using it a bit later today.

    As is the case even now in T15 using tier isn't always the best option since you can just get so much more raw stats out of a TF piece that it just overpowers the bonuses. The introduction of TF/WF gear sadly devalues subpar tier bonuses.

  12. #52
    Thanks for the answers guys. ^^ I've been fiddling around with my own BiS list. It's just that it seemed that the lock theorycrafters over at Icy Veins seemed to think 4pc was quite incredible. But like you said, we won't really know for sure yet.

    The fact that I am in a 10-man guild also makes getting WF pieces quite impossible, heh.

  13. #53
    Stood in the Fire JV Chequer's Avatar
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    I think 4tp is desirable with you don't have any WF piece to increase significantly your stats.
    I really believe that 4tp worth more than 2% more mastery or 2% more haste.
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  14. #54
    I'm going to miss Demo with UVLS :[

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Werst View Post
    I feel like with as much multidotting/soulswapping (note: not SB:SS) as will be going on simply stacking the highest ilvl of haste/mastery is going to be best. I'd almost certainly pass to healers on tier (and probably shadowpriests too ) and will gobble up offset haste/mastery pieces...especially for slots that I have crit on now (eg raden boots/belt, meg neck, etc)

    If you are fast flashing DS onto a dying add shards are not a problem. Plus if you are smart with haunt/shard management its even less of a thing. Plugging away single target is really becoming less and less relevant though it still has its place in theorycraft.
    i can see your reasoning for wanting max ilvl haste/mastery items but you also need to get them where it is realistic to do so, for example there is to my knowledge no haste/mastery belt or neck out there, so you'd have to end up with whatever version there is(hit/mastery) and you wont be able to get haste/mastery offpiece in the shoulder and chest slot either unless you go after the timeless ilvl 535 random enchant gear which, if it is like the bracers from megaera, can only get 1 other stat anyway. ofc it will be optimal to have piece without crit, but that wont be possible, the only real option is hit in most cases with SoO gear.

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by almara2512 View Post
    i can see your reasoning for wanting max ilvl haste/mastery items but you also need to get them where it is realistic to do so, for example there is to my knowledge no haste/mastery belt or neck out there, so you'd have to end up with whatever version there is(hit/mastery) and you wont be able to get haste/mastery offpiece in the shoulder and chest slot either unless you go after the timeless ilvl 535 random enchant gear which, if it is like the bracers from megaera, can only get 1 other stat anyway. ofc it will be optimal to have piece without crit, but that wont be possible, the only real option is hit in most cases with SoO gear.
    There is no Haste/Mastery neck but there are both Hit/Mastery and Hit/Haste necks - same with the shoulder but you need those pieces to have hit on them to get hitcap. And Chest there again is no option for Haste/Mastery but there are still high Haste or Mastery + stat (crit or hit) and depending on the other gear you get you'd either need the hit or not need it.

    You'll inevitably (like you said) get pieces with crit on them but the goal would be to minimize how many you got, which in nearly all gear setups that are floating around you'll only have to pick up 2, max 3 pieces which have lower crit on them anyway that you're reforging away from.

  17. #57
    yeah, luckily there is, if i remember correctly, 6 pieces of gear with mastery/haste, tier helm, bracers, offhand, tier gloves, legs and ring(with a wonky setbonus, that makes me think it is supposed to be a healing ring) with only your weapon as definitive option for crit items as there is only crit/haste and crit/mastery versions of that as there are shoulder and chest versions with hit on them. it basically comes down to how close to the hitcap you want to go, if you're going over it then you will only go with 2 crit/mastery piece, if you go under it you will go with 3.

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by strmstrike View Post
    Obviously you can Haunt other targets, but those are less valuable because you won't channel MG/DS over them.
    Can you actually do this on 5.4? At work or I would give it a try, but I have tested it in prior expansions, and it hasn't ever worked (the debuff was unique( 1 ) just like classic doom, casting it on another removed it from the original).
    Last edited by rijn dael; 2013-09-02 at 11:43 PM.

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by rijn dael View Post
    Can you actually do this on 5.4? At work or I would give it a try, but I have tested it in prior expansions, and it hasn't ever worked (the debuff was unique( 1 ) just like classic doom, casting it on another removed it from the original).
    i can confirm that the debuff isnt unique, had 3 up on 3 dummies.

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by rijn dael View Post
    Can you actually do this on 5.4? At work or I would give it a try, but I have tested it in prior expansions, and it hasn't ever worked (the debuff was unique( 1 ) just like classic doom, casting it on another removed it from the original).
    You have been able to roll several Haunts since 5.0 (Thats when I started playing Lock, so before I got no idea).
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