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  1. #81
    We're more or less saying using 4p as aff will not be worth the loss from using offpieces instead. However, is the same true for demo? The bonus looks rather promising for demo assuming it goes live in a non-bugged state (as in, not consuming charges / fury). Or maybe we even end up using 2p t15 2 p t16 for some heroic progress? I really don't know.

  2. #82
    I assume on 3 targets your KTT passive will be around 8 or 9%? Since SoO is mostly multitarget and aoe fights would that then bring it ahead?
    Cabana Pie Chart US 10th

  3. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by cabana View Post
    I assume on 3 targets your KTT passive will be around 8 or 9%? Since SoO is mostly multitarget and aoe fights would that then bring it ahead?
    No, it doesn't splash or anything. Every time you deal damage it just has a certain chance to do 1/3 extra on top. It doesn't matter how many targets you have. The only difference is that your pet would do a slightly smaller portion of your damage on multiple targets, but that's a really small difference.

  4. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by Jetjaguar View Post
    Im more curious about progression. Bindings wont necessarily give you ~4000 stats right off the bat. And while the overal proc uptime is about the same KTT's frequency of procs makes it nice for multidotting adds during progression
    Definitely agree with you here. Progression wise I would go out on a limb and saying you're able to snag a bindings early (since it drops off first boss) it'll likely be that + BotH (maybe normal BBoY?) until you're progressed through to get a KTT. Even then for progression if the star gain from Binding isn't that monumental I would wager to say BBoY+KTT is what we'll want.

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    Quote Originally Posted by strmstrike View Post
    No, it doesn't splash or anything. Every time you deal damage it just has a certain chance to do 1/3 extra on top. It doesn't matter how many targets you have. The only difference is that your pet would do a slightly smaller portion of your damage on multiple targets, but that's a really small difference.
    I think what he's saying is that he's assuming it will be better with those many targets and tat much % of our damage based on the fact that it would have the ability to proc on each target (unless its capped, anyone know?) that's dotted (resulting in more uptime).
    Warlock: Knot ~ Rogue: Likely ~ Warrior: Notqt ~ Druid: Honestly

  5. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by Woz View Post
    Definitely agree with you here. Progression wise I would go out on a limb and saying you're able to snag a bindings early (since it drops off first boss) it'll likely be that + BotH (maybe normal BBoY?) until you're progressed through to get a KTT. Even then for progression if the star gain from Binding isn't that monumental I would wager to say BBoY+KTT is what we'll want.

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    I think what he's saying is that he's assuming it will be better with those many targets and tat much % of our damage based on the fact that it would have the ability to proc on each target (unless its capped, anyone know?) that's dotted (resulting in more uptime).
    I don't get it :/ Neither the multi-strike proc nor RPPM proc get more chance based on more targets?

  6. #86
    its a total guess but i imagine multistrike is based on dots applied on your last target otherwise it would be insane
    Armory

    <WHATEVER WERE AWESOME> - 14/14 Heroic US 4th West 16th 25m Always Recruiting

  7. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by Jetjaguar View Post
    its a total guess but i imagine multistrike is based on dots applied on your last target otherwise it would be insane
    Why? It's still the same percentage of damage regardless of nr of targets?

    Or is everyone meaning cleave trinket with ''multistrike'' or smthing? Cause that's the name of the KTT proc, so that would be pretty confusing if you are.

  8. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by Nardale View Post
    We're more or less saying using 4p as aff will not be worth the loss from using offpieces instead. However, is the same true for demo? The bonus looks rather promising for demo assuming it goes live in a non-bugged state (as in, not consuming charges / fury). Or maybe we even end up using 2p t15 2 p t16 for some heroic progress? I really don't know.
    Four piece is worth using until Warforged.

  9. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by strmstrike View Post
    I don't get it :/ Neither the multi-strike proc nor RPPM proc get more chance based on more targets?
    Well the multistrike portion of the trinket isn't on RPPM (to my knowledge anyway) it'd be a logical to assume that the chance of proccing the multistrike damage is higher when you are hitting multiple targets for it to possibly proc on, ie:

    1 target = x (where x is chance proc per attack)
    2 target = x*2
    etc...

    Pretty sure that's what he was trying to convey - but that's how I took the statement.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jetjaguar View Post
    its a total guess but i imagine multistrike is based on dots applied on your last target otherwise it would be insane
    I agree it would be pretty nuts if it had a separate chance to proc the multistrike per target that you have dots rolling on but it'd be the logical way to think about it. There's nothing saying that it's based on your last attacks, just "attacks" in general leading me to think it's any target that is currently being damaged.

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    Quote Originally Posted by strmstrike View Post
    Why? It's still the same percentage of damage regardless of nr of targets?

    Or is everyone meaning cleave trinket with ''multistrike'' or smthing? Cause that's the name of the KTT proc, so that would be pretty confusing if you are.
    Yes, it's the same percentage of chance to multistrike but is it based on last target attacked or is it based on "whatever mob you are attacking, regardless of # of targets"?

    If its regardless of how many mobs you are attacking the trinket is going to be worth a lot more than people would take into account I believe.
    Warlock: Knot ~ Rogue: Likely ~ Warrior: Notqt ~ Druid: Honestly

  10. #90
    Can confirm that every dot tick on every target has a chance to proc 33% damage. At least that's how it worked on the dummies a few days ago.

  11. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by Woz View Post
    Well the multistrike portion of the trinket isn't on RPPM (to my knowledge anyway) it'd be a logical to assume that the chance of proccing the multistrike damage is higher when you are hitting multiple targets for it to possibly proc on, ie:

    1 target = x (where x is chance proc per attack)
    2 target = x*2
    etc...

    Pretty sure that's what he was trying to convey - but that's how I took the statement.



    I agree it would be pretty nuts if it had a separate chance to proc the multistrike per target that you have dots rolling on but it'd be the logical way to think about it. There's nothing saying that it's based on your last attacks, just "attacks" in general leading me to think it's any target that is currently being damaged.

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    Yes, it's the same percentage of chance to multistrike but is it based on last target attacked or is it based on "whatever mob you are attacking, regardless of # of targets"?

    If its regardless of how many mobs you are attacking the trinket is going to be worth a lot more than people would take into account I believe.
    Maybe I am missing something here... How is it so much better on multiple targets?

    In any scenario, the trinket does the same thing. Every time you deal damage, it has a x% chance to proc, depending on its itemlevel. Lets say 16% for discussion's sake. If it does proc, another 1/3 is added to the damage of whatever procced it. So on average you are just getting 16%/3 extra damage, regardless of how many targets you have or what spells you use or what you are currently ''attacking'' or anything like that. The only thing that makes it lower is pets/guardians, but that's not of much interest for single vs multi.

    Obviously the net amount of damage is more from it on multiple targets, because you will deal more damage in the first place. But this is no different for any other trinket, considering you can use their procs for the dots on all targets.

  12. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by strmstrike View Post
    Maybe I am missing something here... How is it so much better on multiple targets?
    Quote Originally Posted by strmstrike View Post
    Obviously the net amount of damage is more from it on multiple targets, because you will deal more damage in the first place. But this is no different for any other trinket, considering you can use their procs for the dots on all targets.
    That is how it's "better" multi-target. The net gain of damage from multiple sources of the proc will (or should) result in more eDPS just because you're squeezing that much more damage out to the targets that need it (hence your dots anyway) so you'd basically be adding a 4th dot to that target (more or less). That being said for progressions sake I think KTT will likely edge out a Bindings on any multi-target fight.

    And for those wondering a N-WF Bindings will net this much "extra" stats on my gear currently on live (replacing Cha-Ye).

    Assuming I'd get it first week of clearing it would a net gain of ~300 Mastery, break even with Haste and drop ~1000 Crit when all is said and done (since my Cha-Ye is reforged to Haste). There'd probably be a more optimal reforge path but too lazy to go through the pain of it.

    Which is to say: Normal (even WF + 2xUpgrade) won't be worth picking up.
    Warlock: Knot ~ Rogue: Likely ~ Warrior: Notqt ~ Druid: Honestly

  13. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by Woz View Post
    That is how it's "better" multi-target. The net gain of damage from multiple sources of the proc will (or should) result in more eDPS just because you're squeezing that much more damage out to the targets that need it (hence your dots anyway) so you'd basically be adding a 4th dot to that target (more or less). That being said for progressions sake I think KTT will likely edge out a Bindings on any multi-target fight.
    Hmm alright, all trinkets have that effect though, I would even argue other trinkets are better at it. Getting a 10-stack of BBoY to spread to all targets with Soul Swap is a massive gain for example, much more than multistrike. That's another reason I don't like Bindings; intellect procs become insanely good if you can spread dots affected by them with long duration to multiple targets.

  14. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by strmstrike View Post
    Hmm alright, all trinkets have that effect though, I would even argue other trinkets are better at it. Getting a 10-stack of BBoY to spread to all targets with Soul Swap is a massive gain for example, much more than multistrike. That's another reason I don't like Bindings; intellect procs become insanely good if you can spread dots affected by them with long duration to multiple targets.
    For sure and I agree completely. I still think eDPS wise and even during progression KTT is going to win out over Bindings simply based on the fact that the mastery gain you'll be getting is going to be very minimal while transitioning between T15H gear and T16H gear.

    Even now testing Thok KTT is representing as much damage as Legendary cloak single target. Pretty much convinced at this point of BBoY + KTT for progression purposes.
    Warlock: Knot ~ Rogue: Likely ~ Warrior: Notqt ~ Druid: Honestly

  15. #95
    Completely agree on BBoY and KTT. Question is though, say you luck out and pick up both on N week 1. Then you kill Immerseus HC and can get Bindings hc with mostly same gear as live +- 2 new pieces (excluding the trinkets) Worth picking up or not?

  16. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by Ariol View Post
    Completely agree on BBoY and KTT. Question is though, say you luck out and pick up both on N week 1. Then you kill Immerseus HC and can get Bindings hc with mostly same gear as live +- 2 new pieces (excluding the trinkets) Worth picking up or not?
    Hypothetically it would probably beat KTT normal by a small margin. BBoY passive haste adds another chunk of amplification. However, this scenario is not possible unless your guild stacks loot on you super hard. Replacing T16 normal trinket with T16 heroic one in week 2 is practically impossible with any reasonable loot system.

  17. #97
    From reading this I think that maybe people have forgotten that Multistrike and Cleave are 2 separate trinkets either that or those words are being used to describe each trinket!
    AoE scenario with corruption on all targets:
    Multistrike trinket: each corruption has a chance to damage the target it is on, again (1/3?)
    Cleave trinket: each corruption has a chance to damage targets around the target that that corruption is on.

    Think of Multistrike like elemental's mastery, and Cleave like a mini-Nether Tempest.
    Thinking this way, Cleave would be better for AoE (in fact it would get better the larger the pack) because as the number of corruptions increase, so does the chance of one of them cleaving. Whereas Multistrike's damage doesn't improve with more mobs as its effect only hits the target.
    However, if Cleave's proc rate is far less than Multistrike, then that Multistrike damage might be more than the occasional cleave hit?

  18. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by Ariol View Post
    Completely agree on BBoY and KTT. Question is though, say you luck out and pick up both on N week 1. Then you kill Immerseus HC and can get Bindings hc with mostly same gear as live +- 2 new pieces (excluding the trinkets) Worth picking up or not?
    Unless you can basically pick up a brand new set of gear (ie: replace practically every piece of gear from T15) that first week you get both trinkets even a HWF Bindings won't be that much of a gain. I believe when I was theorizing the same thing it only was a net gain of approx 550 Mastery, break even still on Haste and the Crit is still (obviously) negligible.

    It will be worth picking up as a final BiS item or for later on during the tier when you are nearly full SoO geared when you get a bloat of stats - until then, not really worth it in my opinion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Morzlok View Post
    From reading this I think that maybe people have forgotten that Multistrike and Cleave are 2 separate trinkets either that or those words are being used to describe each trinket!
    AoE scenario with corruption on all targets:
    Multistrike trinket: each corruption has a chance to damage the target it is on, again (1/3?)
    Cleave trinket: each corruption has a chance to damage targets around the target that that corruption is on.

    Think of Multistrike like elemental's mastery, and Cleave like a mini-Nether Tempest.
    Thinking this way, Cleave would be better for AoE (in fact it would get better the larger the pack) because as the number of corruptions increase, so does the chance of one of them cleaving. Whereas Multistrike's damage doesn't improve with more mobs as its effect only hits the target.
    However, if Cleave's proc rate is far less than Multistrike, then that Multistrike damage might be more than the occasional cleave hit?
    It's not being confused between the two as far as I've been reading. There was some confusion about a post indicating that KTT (multistrike) will be more % of damage across a multidotting fight but no one has even touched the Cleave trinket.

    The thing with the Cleaving trinket is it will be great when there are large clusters of adds but is entirely useless outside of that scenario. For example on Garrosh testing I was playing Destro and the cleave trinket would be nearly 15% of my total damage during P1. As soon as you transition to the next phase though you gain absolutely nothing from the cleave portion of the trinket since it doesn't cleave its own target.

    It will be a trinket you take to parse - not for progression I wouldn't imagine.
    Warlock: Knot ~ Rogue: Likely ~ Warrior: Notqt ~ Druid: Honestly

  19. #99
    Personally I think the cleave passive is not impressive at all. Even if it is showing ~5-8% of damage done one fights with quite some AoE, you can't forget that's AoE damage. It would not have been all that hard to do that damage without the trinket, making the damage less valuable than if it would be on a single target.

    The proc is decent at 85s ICD and 15s duration, but I would still rather have BBoY/KTT/Wushoolay procs. The only place it could be good is if you have a few dedicated DPS dealing with lots of AoE spawns, while the rest of the raid can focus their damage on the boss. By that I mean for example Sha of Pride small adds or Shamans poison adds, I strongly doubt it's optimal to have your whole raid swap to those. However I don't think warlocks will be the best choice for the dedicated AoE role, because we have excellent boss damage (single or 2/3 targets) and our aggro dumps are not all that amazing.

    TL;DR don't like cleave trinket.

  20. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by strmstrike View Post
    TL;DR don't like cleave trinket.
    QFT

    Would read again.
    Warlock: Knot ~ Rogue: Likely ~ Warrior: Notqt ~ Druid: Honestly

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