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  1. #1
    Herald of the Titans Valarius's Avatar
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    Ability Bloat - What would you do?

    As the title; if it comes to Blizzard killing off a number of abilities in order to give us new ones, what would you have them do or be OK with losing?

    Consider that: It has to be something you would use a keybind for, or have populating your primary action bars - Blessings, Righteous Fury, heck even Seals for a lot of people are something you click almost always out of combat and then *maybe* occasionally change. Doesn't warrant a bind for most people I know.

    Post the spec, what spells you would remove outright/bake in/combine into one and why?
    Last edited by Valarius; 2013-08-24 at 06:43 PM.
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  2. #2
    I think paladin needs more spammable skills

  3. #3
    Moderator Nobleshield's Avatar
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    Besides something spammable I'd probably get rid of Blinding Light, maybe remove a cooldown or two. I'm not quite sure but I know that I feel I have way too many buttons right now. I'd probably get rid of Crusader Strike or Hammer of the Righteous since they basically do the same shit; I was fine in Wrath with Ret having CS and Prot having HotR. Probably get rid of Templar's Verdict; Ret doesn't need 3 finishers when Prot only has two (e.g. SotR and WoG). Probably get rid of Sacred Shield as that's an additional button.

    I really wouldn't mind if we only had Hammer of the Righteous for AOE, and then like a reverse Devastate for spamming, like instead of lowering the target's armor it increases our armor and stacks. Not 100% sure. I just don't like having 30+ keybinds on any class.

    I think lots of abilities only work if some have cooldowns and you have a robust macro system like RIFT's where you can create spam macros (absolutely loved being able to consolidate a bunch of abilities and having reactive abilities), but Blizzard doesn't like that idea.
    Last edited by Nobleshield; 2013-08-24 at 07:29 PM.
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  4. #4
    Herald of the Titans Valarius's Avatar
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    I'd probably get rid of Inquisition rather than Templar's. Inquisition's only function is to provide artificial complexity in the form of a chore-buff. It doesn't add any meaningful decision making to combat.

    I agree about HotR and CS. I would probably just bake in both the debuff and the cleave component to CS for all specs (which means Holy also gets an extra AoE).

    I would love to finally get rid of bubble. It's those long-cooldowns that *need* to be keybinded, but rarely see much use/are super situational (in PvE at least with so many boss attacks bypassing it now) that are the worst offenders.

    Perhaps make it trigger a temp immunity on low HP (sans threat drop), and bake the total debuff-clearing functionality into Hand of Salvation (which would replace the threat drop part, since tank aggro is insane these days. Perhaps a glyph could add the threat drop back to it.)

    That, or just remove Hand of Salvation/make it a spell taught via Glyph for those who *really* want it and leave bubble as is.
    Last edited by Valarius; 2013-08-24 at 07:34 PM.
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  5. #5
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Paladin is one of the classes with the least amount of ability bloat right now. The only main thing I can think of is possibly removing Turn Evil and all non-humanoid CC's from the game (Hibernate, Shackle, etc.) which would require re-balancing of PvP around the fact that pets/minions will generally not be able to be CC'ed.

  6. #6
    Epic! Freia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valarius View Post
    That, or just remove Hand of Salvation/make it a spell taught via Glyph for those who *really* want it and leave bubble as is.
    I use Salv on a consistent basis in pve. The times you use it isn't usually from a dps pulling aggro off the tank, it is usually from to drop aggro from spawning adds that the tank hasn't picked up yet. I don't want them to remove it or force me to waste a glyph spot on it.

    Only ability bloat I think paladins have is Holy having too many mediocre cooldowns as GC said. They just really need to rework the spec now.

  7. #7
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freia View Post
    Only ability bloat I think paladins have is Holy having too many mediocre cooldowns as GC said. They just really need to rework the spec now.
    To be fair two mediocre cooldowns (depending on situation) can be better than 1 massive cooldown if the two combined = the one massive, that gives you the choice to combine or separate them. I do think the new GoAK just needs removal and replacement.

  8. #8
    Moderator Krekko's Avatar
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    I'm honestly not feeling "Bloated" on my Paladin. My shaman yes, but Paladin not so much.

    In fact I'd give Ret Consecration back and give all specs Auruas again as CD's (like Devo) and bring back Sanctity Aura!

    Doesn't mean you can't trim it down existing spells in exchange and make things better though. IF inquisition were to go, I'd like to see extra depth added to Seals/Judgement and such.

    I wouldn't get rid of Salv ever though.
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  9. #9
    I feel far more bloated on my druid than my paladin.

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  10. #10
    Combine TV with Divine storm maybe? TV damage on one target, and splits with next target or more depending on how many in melee range of your target? add a glyph that makes it hit for 10% more but no longer cleaves.

    solves one of many. but not that much bloat as paladin if u ask me

  11. #11
    Yeah, I'd agree that Paladins have some of the least bloat among the classes, and I have very few issues with keybinding what I need compared to other classes I've played.

  12. #12
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jetersky View Post
    Yeah, I'd agree that Paladins have some of the least bloat among the classes, and I have very few issues with keybinding what I need compared to other classes I've played.
    Shaman and druids are the worst offenders with bloat. Priests especially Holy are quite bad too.

  13. #13
    the solution is quite simple: new abilities are intended to be upgraded replacements for existing abilities.

    We already have in-game abilities and talents that effectively replace or remove abilities.

  14. #14
    Herald of the Titans Simulacrum's Avatar
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    Paladins aren't very bloated. You can't remove any abilities without removing some unique utility.

    Suggestion like the removal of hand of salvation is truly ridiculous. Kind of hard to believe someone doesn't use it regularly in all sorts of pve situations... unless they just don't pve, but then I can think of several near-exclusively pvp-only abilities that should be removed from the class by the same logic. Even Righteous Fury is very useful for non-prot, if niche.

    In fact, I want *returned to me* many of the now spec-unique abilities lost to other specs in recent 'streamlining'. Only thing I really feel like we have to much of, in any of the specs, is holy with its many weak cooldowns, AW+DF in particular, with the PTR (and live, when not-stacked) GoAK getting pretty close too.
    Last edited by Simulacrum; 2013-08-25 at 12:12 AM.
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  15. #15
    I cant be the only one that want divine storm as prot!

    I do not like hand of purity to be honest.
    I also dislike inquisition, could live without both those.
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  16. #16
    I don't think I've ever felt much bloated with class abilities as a paladin, at least when I was really into the game. Looking at things now... Eh. I can see why they wanted to trim things down for certain specs, but some things are just so iconic for paladins (like Consecration) that taking it away from any of the specs doesn't feel right.

    I've never really thought about divine storm on prot, but it would be interesting. At least let us have a HoPo AoE. Inquisition has always seemed a bit clunky, but removing it would mean there would be some other idiot check for doing damage most likely. Maybe if we got a 4th spec that was spell DPS it would feel better to me.

    Giving Holy back Consecration (and/or Holy Wrath) would be awesome. I believe the main reason it was labeled a prot ability is because prot paladins used it to great effect in TBC for AOE tanking, which at the time the druids and warriors had a harder time with or couldn't do period.

    Much more than we currently have and I would call it bloated. I'd certainly have a harder time managing a druid with all their abilities now that four specs are in play.
    Last edited by Jackielope; 2013-08-25 at 03:04 AM.
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  17. #17
    Herald of the Titans Valarius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revvo View Post
    I feel far more bloated on my druid than my paladin.
    I actually feel the opposite. On my Druid (Resto) there is less stuff I need sitting on my bars "just in case".

    While Druids have a heck of a lot more abilities with all the different form spells, thanks to action bar swapping a single bind can be used for 3 or 4 spells.

    EDIT: I should clarify that this thread isn't about me feeling that Paladins are particularly bad cases. It's whether Blizzard wants to cull spells across the board and if they did, what you would do to make room on your bars. There's no denying that Paladins have some of the most situational abilities in the game, aswell as some of the most "just because" level of pointlessness (Inquisition *cough*)
    Last edited by Valarius; 2013-08-25 at 04:19 AM.
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  18. #18
    I don't think Paladins have too many abilities, at least from the Prot/Ret side of things. Other than removing Inquisition, or making it more fun.

  19. #19
    Well the first thing you could do is take some spells that are spec specific from specs that dont need them. A holy pally doesnt need crusader strike(have judgement give holy power if you want, or leave crusader and remove judgment). Another thing I would like to see for all hybrids is removal of healing spells from DPS and tank specs, add a heal or damage reduction option into the talent tree. Have only 1 spec be able to use a certain hand spell so that each has one instead of everyone having all three.

    So you get rid of spells without actually getting rid of them. You just have to be in the right spec to use them.

  20. #20
    As stated paladins don't have a huge amount of bloat right now, but for streamlining here's what I'd do:

    1) Remove Inquisition.

    2) Make Sacred Shield a passive that occurs when you use Shield of the Righteous, consider actually tying this to either mastery or further with active mitigation - find a new ability to put in there for the level 45 (it's 45 right?) talent.

    3) Turn auras into talents and put bubble in there too. So you can choose if you want a personal bubble, an AoE bubble or some sort of passive effect.

    Kinda weak on three, but one and two aren't too bad though it really all comes down to suggestion #1. Paladins just don't have a lot going on as far as a bajillion buttons to hit.

    So odd that monks - the new kids who should have been built with keeping ability bloat in mind - seem to be wild with too much flavor. Teas, cleanses, multiple active abilities, multiple resources that are a pain in the ass to juggle.

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