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  1. #21
    Prot - get rid of Righteous Fury. Seriously, why is this not passive when we switch to Prot already? HoR should take into account of how many mobs in range. Single target, same damage as CS, and any more applies usual AE equations. I think consecrate could go. As iconic as the spell is, Holy Wrath is all the AoE we'd need plus it has the stun. Or remove HW and keep Cons. Remove Hammer of Wrath from Prot. Rarely use this spell at all.

  2. #22
    As Ret I could live without:
    - Inquisition
    - Seal of Righteousness
    - Cleanse
    - Hand of Salvation
    - Hammer of the Righteous
    - Righteous Fury
    - Reckoning
    - Turn Evil
    - Hand of Purity

    Not really that much ability bloat but I'd rather have something else instead.

  3. #23
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Keep in mind removing these abilities are in fact 100% self-nerfs. True "bloat" is abilities which actually see little to no actual use. My probably least used Paladin ability, "Turn Evil," is in my opinion about as close to "bloat" as abilities get, but it is still used in PvP and required to be balanced. Removing the ability would be a direct nerf and hence even something as trivial as that would require re-balancing (namely, pets which in the past were balanced around being able to be feared would have to be nerfed as well).

    Inquisition removal is not "bloat reduction," it is fundamentally changing Ret rotation.

    Removing Hand of Purity is not "bloat removal," it's fundamentally nerfing Paladin utility.

  4. #24
    Moderator Krekko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doylez View Post
    As Ret I could live without:
    - Inquisition
    - Seal of Righteousness
    - Cleanse
    - Hand of Salvation
    - Hammer of the Righteous
    - Righteous Fury
    - Reckoning
    - Turn Evil
    - Hand of Purity

    Not really that much ability bloat but I'd rather have something else instead.
    - Inquisition - Okay, that one can be worked/baked into other spells, but that requires a change to gameplay. We can't just "rid" of this entirely IMO.

    - Seal of Righteousness - Why? I mean sure it need working but we SHOULD have multiple seals for multiple instances.

    - Cleanse - Lets not take away utility, we should have a cleanse, I mean why would you want this away?

    - Hand of Salvation - Why again?! This is crazy that people want this gone. This should not even be on minds.

    - Hammer of the Righteous - We need an on-demand AoE. Granted this can be done other ways, but we still need an alternative, why remove this without one?

    - Righteous Fury - Once again, utility that you're not constantly needing to press, what if we need to pick something up and can't get the threat? What about Heroic Scenarios where we want to tank? This is another one where we're fine with keeping.

    - Reckoning - So, you're going to give up a taunt which can help save a raid from a wipe, or help you do plenty of other useful things? Why?

    - Turn Evil - Especially with the coming changes to the spell, having this as a fear will be pretty useful situationally. This can be considered "bloat" but really that's the only thing on this list I'd really consider, I'd rethink it's potential usefulness.

    - Hand of Purity- This is another UTILITY Spell. There is nothing wrong with it at all, and you have two other options to it where you don't need to add another button, why vote this one off?



    I see people wanting abilities out just to get them out. That's not the point of reducing ability bloat. People are suggesting butchering ourselves to clean up the bars. I highly suggest if you find some of these abilities disposable to go ahead and reevaluate what you're doing as a player and how one can better maximize your class and your abilities.

    Paladins are not bloated, there are some classes which are (like Shamans) where you have more spells than you can handle or even think about, but Ret is pretty solid. We could add a few spells and consolidate them, and rework things, sure, but some of these suggestions are crazy.
    Last edited by Krekko; 2013-08-25 at 08:06 AM.
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  5. #25
    On the topic of Seal of Righteousness, I wouldn't mind if SoR and Seal of Justice were combined into one Seal. With that change, it wouldn't be such a large single target damage loss using SoR over SoT. Seal of Truth would still be the goto single target Seal, and the other Seal would be used for multiple targets and PvP. That just makes sense to me.

  6. #26
    Honestly? If they do the number squish or this, I will actually finally quit World of Warcraft.

    I find enjoyment seeing huge numbers on my screen .-.
    And I find having all these abilities fun

  7. #27
    I wouldn't want Inquisition completely gone as others suggested. I'd like it to be a talent after some reworking so it does something interesting for other specs (instead of flat buff as it used to be in cata).

  8. #28
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clash1 View Post
    On the topic of Seal of Righteousness, I wouldn't mind if SoR and Seal of Justice were combined into one Seal. With that change, it wouldn't be such a large single target damage loss using SoR over SoT. Seal of Truth would still be the goto single target Seal, and the other Seal would be used for multiple targets and PvP. That just makes sense to me.
    I think Seals could use a rework for Ret. Truth and Insight are definitely fine (Insight being the go-to for Holy and Prot, with Ret using Truth mainly and Insight as the "defensive" seal), but the other two...

  9. #29
    Auras do not take keybind, so they are not focusing on that.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Krekko View Post
    Seal of Righteousness - Why? I mean sure it need working but we SHOULD have multiple seals for multiple instances.
    Why should we? What's so important about pressing a button to switch to a different seal? I don't get it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Krekko View Post
    - Cleanse - Lets not take away utility, we should have a cleanse, I mean why would you want this away?
    Again, why? "we should have cleanse..." why? Seriously when was the last time you absolutely had to use this?

    Quote Originally Posted by Krekko View Post
    - Hand of Salvation - Why again?! This is crazy that people want this gone. This should not even be on minds.
    Probably the most useful of all the things I've mentioned. I still don't like it. It's just boring. Effect could be merged with something else like Avenging Wrath, or one of the other hands if you want to keep support for others.
    Quote Originally Posted by Krekko View Post
    - Righteous Fury - Once again, utility that you're not constantly needing to press, what if we need to pick something up and can't get the threat? What about Heroic Scenarios where we want to tank? This is another one where we're fine with keeping.

    - Reckoning - So, you're going to give up a taunt which can help save a raid from a wipe, or help you do plenty of other useful things? Why?
    tank tree is that way >
    Is it nice to have in some rare situations? yes
    Is it absolutely necessary? no
    Quote Originally Posted by Krekko View Post
    - Hand of Purity- This is another UTILITY Spell. There is nothing wrong with it at all, and you have two other options to it where you don't need to add another button, why vote this one off?
    We already have plenty of support/utility, I'd rather have more space for some new offensive abilities. It's also boring.

    My main issue with the abilities I've mentioned isn't that they're completely useless, it's that they're a) no fun at all b) don't really belong in the DPS tree anyway.

  11. #31
    Concecrate is not paladin unique ability, death knight has D&D

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Doylez View Post
    Again, why? "we should have cleanse..." why? Seriously when was the last time you absolutely had to use this?
    Yesterday? (Havent played today yet)
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Grand Crusader Absalom View Post
    Prot - get rid of Righteous Fury. Seriously, why is this not passive when we switch to Prot already?
    Nooo!
    They should IMO implement a RF-like toggle-able buff for every tanking class. (Or let Warrs/DKs/Guardians change form/stance/presence without drawbacks.) Nothing suck more than having a new, under-geared coo-tank, who then can't hold threat. Nothing solves that like a \cancelaura RF macro!

  14. #34
    Pandaren Monk Freia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doylez View Post
    stuff
    Just because you don't know how to properly use the abilities does not mean that they should go away.

    Cleanse is useful in pvp and pve on fights like horridon.

    Righteous fury is good for times when you have adds that are being tanked by a plate dps or even a holy paladin. I am pretty sure multiple people in here can name plenty of instances where they need to use it as a non-tank specced paladin, same with taunt.

    Hand of Purity is a talent. Don't use it? Don't take it.

    Merging Hand of Salvation into avenging wrath is one of the dumbest ideas I have seen. What if you need to hold Avenging Wrath for a burst phase and suddenly need to drop aggro? How is it going to be used on others then?

    Can we not let this thread turn into "Remove abilities I don't use/understand"?
    Last edited by Freia; 2013-08-25 at 12:11 PM.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Freia View Post
    Hand of Purity is a talent. Don't use it? Don't take it.
    I do not really like hand of purity, since they have to break it for any meaningful mechanic, otherwise it would be OP. I would not mind seeing it go away and replaced with something new. What about something that increases the potency of our hands? Imagine a talent instead that causes

    HoF - Removes stuns (like the old wotlk talaent)
    HoSalv - Now also reduces the targets threat by x% (kinda like the new + old salv in one)
    HoSac - The paladin only takes 25-50% of the damage that the sacrifice reduce on the target

    Something like that is something I would much rather like to see than HoPur.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  16. #36
    Pandaren Monk Freia's Avatar
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    Hand of Sac has a glyph that removes the damage taken by the paladin. It probably is something they want to take out completely but can't without negatively affecting holy pvp (something they are already hurting in).

    Why would you need hand of salv to remove a percentage of threat when it already removes 100%?

    The only thing I might change is baking emancipate into cleanse like it was in cata, but they would have to figure it out.

  17. #37
    Moderator Nobleshield's Avatar
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    I think while Paladins don't have a LOT of bloat, there's still some. I'm of the mindset that every class should follow a general flow of abilities e.g. 1x single target resource builder, 1x single target resource consumer, 1x aoe resource builder, 1x aoe resource consumer. We have less bloat than other classes, true, but for instance I don't think that Prot needs 5+ cooldowns (DP, GAK, AD, DA, LOH, HA if taken, AW). Something like one short CD defensive and one long CD defensive, one DPS defensive and one raidwide defensive is enough for pretty much everyone (I really miss the old passive AD). For Ret I'd rather see Inq baked into using a finisher, that is it's a passive buff you get when you use a HP consumer, since you want to keep it up 100% anyways.

    Maybe something like make WoG an AOE heal (yes, stealing Doctrine of Loyalty from RIFT) and giving Prot back Holy Shield as a passive buff that does the damage reduction instead of SotR (that is SotR is a heavy single-target DPS HoPo consumer that ALSO gives Holy Shield, WoG is an AOE heal HoPo consumer that ALSO gives Holy Shield). That's approximately how a Rift Cleric (equivalent to Prot Pally) tanks: Either you use "Hammer of Duty" to consume your Convictions (think HoPo) and do damage, or you use Doctrine of Loyalty to do a group/raidwide heal. Holy then can get talents/abilities that increase their heals done by a lot as they are the healer. Retri wouldn't get WoG at all (TV/DS are their finishers) but maybe get that reducing FoL mechanic from Selfless Healer baked into them.
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  18. #38
    I would be very sad if hand of salv was removed. I use it all the time in pve, especially on boss pulls

  19. #39
    blizzard should not remove spells, they should put more spells in the game and make it more fun, how fun is it to sit and spam lightning bolt or frostbolt as the only spell because everything else is auto proc and shoot.

  20. #40
    Sorry to sound like a broken record, but Paladin is the one class I feel have very little ability bloat. I cannot picture removing any ability and I have no trouble with keybindings on him.

    If I had to suggest something, it would be bake Seal of Truth and Righteous into one seal. Our AoE isn't exactly amazing to begin with so I don't see the harm in this ( feel free to disagree ) and maybe remove Righteous fury for Prot and bake it into the spec.

    The only classes I feel "bloated" on are Druid, Shaman and to a certain extend my Hunter.

    Edit: How could I forget this; Remove Inquisition. I'm bored of these buffs that add little to a class, but must be maintanced and doesn't do damage either. Slice and Dice, Savage Roar, etc.
    Last edited by Bonkbonk100; 2013-08-25 at 12:49 PM.

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