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  1. #41
    Ability bloating was partly the reason why i quit my paly after cata.

    I don't wanna have to use Hammer of the Righteos as ret. I want Crusader strike for ret, with Divinestorm and possibly consecration for aoe. I want Crusader strike to be upgraded to hammer of the righteos for prot, thus serving aoe and single target at the same time, and consecration as extra aoe, together with avengers shield cleave. When i had to add another button for my ret spec that i have to spam i was disheathened.

    I don't like inquisition and i never have. The decision wether to buff yourself, or use heals in pvp was rough enough because holy power was such slow regen back then ( obv. not like that any longer). Just bake that shit in already, i hate buffs that i have to keep up, like slice and dice, and tiger palm.

    This is why i dont play my rogue or pali anymore, rogues got some new separate aoe spam rotationbuttons too.....

    Level 90 talents are not necessary either tbh so i wouldn't mind them going either.

    After that, reinstate old repentance and sacred shield and i'll reroll back.
    Last edited by wiep; 2013-08-25 at 12:56 PM.

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Freia View Post
    Why would you need hand of salv to remove a percentage of threat when it already removes 100%?
    Salv does not remove any threat at all. All threat is still there, it just causes the person not to be targeted. As soon as the salv is over the threat is back.
    The target even continues to gain more threat when salv is up.

    Personally I miss the old salv, it was much better for tank swaps.
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  3. #43
    Pandaren Monk Freia's Avatar
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    I am aware of what it does. It works like all other threat drops. I also think the old Hand of Salv lost its effectiveness in the current game which is why it was changed.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Freia View Post
    It works like all other threat drops.
    No, it does not. Salv does not drop threat at all. There is a huge difference in that.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  5. #45
    Pandaren Monk Freia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    No, it does not. Salv does not drop threat at all. There is a huge difference in that.
    You obviously do not know how other threat drops work if you insist on posting that. The threat returns for pretty much all of them.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Freia View Post
    You obviously do not know how other threat drops work if you insist on posting that.
    On which threat drops are you referrring to? Stuff like feign death actually drops your threat.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  7. #47
    Pandaren Monk Freia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    On which threat drops are you referrring to? Stuff like feign death actually drops your threat.
    Actually let me correct it. Most threat redirects used on other people the threat will return to you after the time is up. They put salv in that category over a threat drop.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Freia View Post
    Actually let me correct it. Most threat redirects used on other people the threat will return to you after the time is up. They put salv in that category over a threat drop.
    That is actually incorrect. The threat from ToT or Misdirection do not return to the rogue/hunter after the effect expires. They give the target temporary threat, which disappears after a while. The threat done from such abilities simply disappears after some time. Hand of salvation does not in any way reduce or alter your threat, it simply makes you lose all aggro for the duration, the threat is still there, is not altered in any way and you continue to gain threat for the duration.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Freia View Post
    Just because you don't know how to properly use the abilities does not mean that they should go away.

    Can we not let this thread turn into "Remove abilities I don't use/understand"?
    Just because I think they could be removed doesn't mean that I don't understand them, but thanks for implying that I'm an idiot.

    The argument "but I sometimes use it in situation x" could be made for every single ability in the game, that doesn't mean that you can't live without it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Freia View Post
    What if you need to hold Avenging Wrath for a burst phase and suddenly need to drop aggro?
    Divine shield, hand of protection, stop attacking for a second, your tank taunts...?
    For all I care they can add a new attack that also reduces aggro but having an ability that does nothing but drop aggro is extremely boring.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Doylez View Post
    Just because I think they could be removed doesn't mean that I don't understand them, but thanks for implying that I'm an idiot.

    The argument "but I sometimes use it in situation x" could be made for every single ability in the game, that doesn't mean that you can't live without it.
    Depends on what that situation is. There are definitely some situations where that one specific ability is perfect for the job, and if those situations are important enough then having that ability is also important. You might disagree with their use because you don't find them worthwhile for whatever reasons, but others do find them useful even if situational. Whether that's because Blizz intentionally makes those situations arise to validate the existence of those abilities (and thus it might be argued that getting rid of them means the situations they'd be used for rarely come up anymore) is unknown.

    Boring is in the eye of the beholder. Having an aggro drop baked passively into an attack might be boring for someone else because it could simply become part of the rotation, but the same person could find Salv immensely satisfying because it's an active ability that has a specific purpose and would get used when it really needs to be instead of rotationally like an attack might become.
    Last edited by Jackielope; 2013-08-25 at 02:30 PM.
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  11. #51
    Pandaren Monk Freia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doylez View Post
    Just because I think they could be removed doesn't mean that I don't understand them, but thanks for implying that I'm an idiot.

    The argument "but I sometimes use it in situation x" could be made for every single ability in the game, that doesn't mean that you can't live without it.

    Divine shield, hand of protection, stop attacking for a second, your tank taunts...?
    For all I care they can add a new attack that also reduces aggro but having an ability that does nothing but drop aggro is extremely boring.
    Lets bake aggro drops onto rotational abilities so that when you have a fight where you have to keep aggro on adds you just can't!

    Lets not. And don't try to say those fights never happen because you would be incorrect.
    Last edited by Freia; 2013-08-25 at 02:37 PM.

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Freia View Post
    Lets bake aggro drops onto rotational abilities so that when you have a fight where you have to keep aggro on adds you just can't!

    Lets not. And don't try to say those fights never happen because you would be incorrect.
    Might want to be specific about which fights those might be. It's far easier to handwave nonspecific information.
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  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Jackalope View Post
    Might want to be specific about which fights those might be. It's far easier to handwave nonspecific information.
    Will of the Emperor, Dark Animus and Ji-Kun too in some strats. There are probably examples from other expacs too, but I'm a newbie.

    Derp: Megaera too, with the Adds.
    Last edited by Wanko; 2013-08-25 at 03:02 PM.

  14. #54
    Pandaren Monk Freia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jackalope View Post
    Might want to be specific about which fights those might be. It's far easier to handwave nonspecific information.
    Lets see... Dark Animus. We also had our ret handle adds on megaera and twin consorts. The person i am responding to said remove all aggro abilities like taunt and RF(make prot only) and bake threat drops/reducers into other abilities for ret. That does remove a ton of utility from ret.

    And on Dark Animus as holy, I don't really know how I would keep aggro on an add once dps started hitting it without a taunt or RF. You really think our pathetic damage would keep threat? Nope.

  15. #55
    The Lightbringer Valarius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    Inquisition removal is not "bloat reduction," it is fundamentally changing Ret rotation.
    I disagree - Inquisition is 100% a bloat ability - it's only function is as a DPS activator. The fact they are changing it to last 1minute, means we'll be hitting it as infrequently as that, or half as much as we do on live. It could easily go and just fold the damage it provides as baseline, then create some synergy between the remaining attacks to put *actual* complexity in the spec.

    Also, I don't believe bloat has to refer to "no use" spells. Try not to think of things in terms of buffs or nerfs. Hunters lost Readiness completely, and they are thinking of removing the basic heal from everyone (Holy Light/Heal/LHW/Nourish) which are also nerfs or removal of kit when you look at it in those terms. They would re-tune their game around lost abilities. They have said they are wondering if everyone *needs* a snare, an interrupt, a CC etc. If half the classes lose their interrupt and the other half lose their snare, they are going to have to change other mechanics to compensate for that.
    Last edited by Valarius; 2013-08-25 at 03:17 PM.
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  16. #56
    Pandaren Monk Freia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valarius View Post
    I disagree - Inquisition is 100% a bloat ability - it's only function is as a DPS activator. The fact they are changing it to last 1minute, means we'll be hitting it as infrequently as that, or half as much as we do on live. It could easily go and just fold the damage it provides as baseline, then create some synergy between the remaining attacks to put *actual* complexity in the spec.

    Also, I don't believe bloat has to refer to "no use" spells. Try not to think of things in terms of buffs or nerfs. Hunters lost Readiness completely, and they are thinking of removing the basic heal from everyone (Holy Light/Heal/LHW/Nourish) which are also nerfs or removal of kit when you look at it in those terms. They would re-tune their game around lost abilities. They have said they are wondering if everyone *needs* a snare, an interrupt, a CC etc. If half the classes lose their interrupt and the other half lose their snare, they are going to have to change other mechanics to compensate for that.
    Removing the basic heals would be interesting. They are supposed to be the efficient heals so they would have to definitely rebalance mana costs. I think they have a lot of things they want to redo about healing overall though next expansion. They have definitely made it clear they don't like the aoe heal spam going on and probably have to rebalance absorbs.

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Wanko View Post
    Will of the Emperor, Dark Animus and Ji-Kun too in some strats. There are probably examples from other expacs too, but I'm a newbie.
    If we're talking other xpacs, I remember several from Wrath. One in ICC was the Saurfang fight. I'd always have RF up so that I'd be the one to get aggro from the blood beast adds at first, and they'd try to make a beeline for me which gave the DPS some more time to take them down than if the adds went straight to them. It wasn't the only strategy that worked for that fight (I know quite a few guilds used that warlock AoE stun at the time to take care of them), but it did work quite well for my guild then. That's also one of the arguments against only giving RF to the tank specs: Having threat on mobs is a viable option for non-tanks on some encounters, and I'll take some perceived ability bloat for the extra versatility such a tactic grants any day, thank you very much.

    Having adds go to a high armor healer who could easily outheal their damage (yes, even with casting being slowed by getting hit. Paladins preferred haste back then.) while keeping the tank up too thanks to Beacon of Light was pretty damn useful. In Naxx alone I used that tactic (if my guild wanted it, and a couple times where they didn't at first but it was necessary) with Noth, Gothik, Grobbulus, and even Kel'Thuzad's adds a couple times before we got to the point where single tanking KT was viable. I could also tank Stalagg or Feugen on the Thaddius fight if the raid wanted to single tank Thad himself. Gluth's adds weren't really tankable, but kiting them was a breeze for me. Having mostly undead in Naxx meant I could use Holy Wrath to great effect by stunning everything around me too, so of course attracting some of the trash and just AoE stunning them was pretty useful.

    Looking above, that was about a fifth of all raid fights in T7 where I as a non-tank could help the raid by doing some aggro work myself even to the point of not needing a second tank. It wasn't strictly necessary, but it was certainly possible and even quite useful. And above all, it was damn fun doing more than just spamming Holy Light. You (not talking to Wanko, just anyone in general with the following opinion) think getting rid of aggro mechanics for non-tanks because they aren't useful will fly? Bullshit. They're damn useful, and can even be fun when a raid wants to try some new stuff.
    Last edited by Jackielope; 2013-08-25 at 04:34 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Everything Nice View Post
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  18. #58
    Holy ability bloat:

    The cast-time-single-target-heal series.

    Holy Light should find a middle ground with Divine Light in terms of both throughput and efficiency, leaving FoL as a quick heal(not very quick in actuality, but whatever).

    LoD versus EF(and to a much smaller extent WoG, since nobody really uses this skill, it's either LoD or EF). Multiple finishers which achieve similar effects just result in people picking the highest healing spell and stick with it. As of currently, I am not even sure why I bind LoD to my bar at all since all HP goes to EF.

    Hand of Purity is useful, but so situational. When you do encounter a fight this spell is useful, it's another hotkey to remember to use. Should merge this as a replacement upgrade for Hand of Freedom(naturally, this will include the movement impairment immunity effect), then reduce the cooldown/duration accordingly to compensate for the loss of extra cast.

    The throughput cooldown series: AW, DF, GoAK and to a much smaller extent, HA. With GoAK tentatively becoming a 3 minute cooldown, this brings us to yet another spell we have to manage. There are no real easy solutions for this without significantly adjusting the combined power levels of the cooldowns, though.

    But yeah, compared to other classes, Holy has fewer superfluous/overly situational abilities.
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  19. #59
    Since the topic is named "Ability Bloat - What would you do?" I would go on each class/spec, pick X active abilities that define it and see how much of the rest I could delete.

    Hand of Purity for example is for sure something I could see deleted. Its sole purpose is to break game mechanics in PvE, you don't randomly spec Hand of Purity just to lose out on 50% cd reduction from Divine Shield, LoH or DP, and even if it came for free, its so situational(without the mechanic breaking part). Could also see Blinding Light go, its sole purpose has been giving us a new spell this expansion.

  20. #60
    Bloodsail Admiral Luminoth4's Avatar
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    Not much to say personally, I don't see Ret or Prot as offenders. As for removing RF, I have actually been using it on my Ret in Heroic Scenarios, to keep Aggro off other members, such as a Mage and Ele Shammy. I would like to see Consecration returned to Ret though, for PVP.
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