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  1. #21
    The Patient pouca's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiberria View Post
    But, haste for the extra cast time is almost certainly weaker than either Crit or Spirit. About 90% of our output is tied into HR, HST, RT (including the things that we proc) that we don't really gain that much from being able to cast more fillers, and it requires more Spirit to sustain fully using that faster cast time. 1500 Crit is going to be upwards of 4 times the healing of an extra ELW tick with the HR changes in 5.4, so I don't think it's really that close - that extra ELW tick is not worth going for.
    You are probably right, but you were making sophisticated calculation without including all the parameters.
    So your impression is that crit is better but your calulation prooves nothing.
    Feel free to give your impression and the good arguments why it might be correct, don't pretend numbers are on your side.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by fenrez View Post
    I feel that Mastery > excess haste for progression but other than that I agree with your post. .
    I actually just made another thread about stat priority for rest shamans. I was told to go for mostly crit>mastery but you say during progression you'd recommend mastery? Because I would think if you had excess haste you would just reforge it into crit (according to some of the post on my other thread). But I'm also reading people take more haste because of the whole totem latency and not *actually* getting the ticks that they're supposed too.

  3. #23
    Snapfox, regarding the mastery vs crit dilemma: i tried to toy around with the idea of heavy mastery reforge back in t14. I picked HC Garalon as the testing grounds back then, seemed like the best fight for it. I changed the usual haste breakpoint --> all crit, into haste breakpoint --> all mastery. Results were shockingly similar HPS-wise, but i was ooming faster. And that's on a fight where you actually get to heal people who are low for longer than 2 seconds. That was on progression, mind you, around 485 - 490 ilvl at the time.

    So no, i do not recommend using mastery reforges even for progression. You don't have to take my word for it though, there is an addon floating around that calculates your average mastery value per fight, should be somewhere on elitist jerks forums. Feel free to get that and see for yourself.

  4. #24

  5. #25
    Precisely, thank you so much for linking it, i am a lazy bum who couldn't be bothered to browse his favourites

    Anyway, the addon is GOLD to show why exactly mastery is crap. Other than that, you soon realise you want particular haste breakpoint, then as much crit as you can get.

    Props to Varzik for the link, although it might have been linked somewhere on this forums lately.

  6. #26
    Ah thanks Ranjit and Varzik, I'll look into that addon.


    Tiberria, I'm curious since Mastery is clearly not our strongest stat, what do you plan to do for the T16 set? It's stacked with Mastery...

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by snapfox View Post
    Ah thanks Ranjit and Varzik, I'll look into that addon.


    Tiberria, I'm curious since Mastery is clearly not our strongest stat, what do you plan to do for the T16 set? It's stacked with Mastery...
    T16 2 pc is pretty strong and works out to a 3-5% output increase, so at the very least, I would go for that. Unless they fix/buff the T16 4pc, it will be something to avoid completely, especially with the itemization of the tier pieces. Right now, the 4 pc is giving sub 0.5% extra output, is giving maybe 200k healing per SWG use and is complete garbage. However, it appears that the mirror image thing isn't gaining your SP or secondary stats, so that might not be intended and be why it's so terrible. Until it gets fixed/changed, you can't really evaluate it, but for now, it's a must avoid.

    I plan on using 2 pc + 2 pc until full heroic gear, and then going with better itemized offset pieces. Unless 4 piece ends up being a 3%+ output gain, I can't see it being worth going for.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by snapfox View Post
    Ah thanks Ranjit and Varzik, I'll look into that addon.


    Tiberria, I'm curious since Mastery is clearly not our strongest stat, what do you plan to do for the T16 set? It's stacked with Mastery...
    I plan on using 2 set T15 and T16, simply because the 4 set on T16 is utter shameful and is like 0.5% increase, ditching the mastery tier pieces for crit and spirit ones instead. The 2 set T15 makes your healing stream hit another target still i believe? Which makes it incredible with the damage reduction.

  9. #29
    Wrong topic ! sorry.

  10. #30
    Grunt Jenstar's Avatar
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    I also plan on using 2pc T15 and 2pc T16. However, I remember they nerfed the holy pally T14 when pallies weren't switching to the T15 earlier this tier, so I am also looking at it from a potential T15 nerf perspective too.

    I hate having tier tied to Spiritwalker's Grace (using SWG doesn't often coincide with heavy damage output where you want the tier bonus, even if it was buffed more - like when you use it for eye sore phase on heroic Durumu), although at least back in Dragon Soul, you could use the SWG haste buff from that tier bonus to get back an entire mana pool via TC!

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Jenstar View Post
    I also plan on using 2pc T15 and 2pc T16. However, I remember they nerfed the holy pally T14 when pallies weren't switching to the T15 earlier this tier, so I am also looking at it from a potential T15 nerf perspective too.

    I hate having tier tied to Spiritwalker's Grace (using SWG doesn't often coincide with heavy damage output where you want the tier bonus, even if it was buffed more - like when you use it for eye sore phase on heroic Durumu), although at least back in Dragon Soul, you could use the SWG haste buff from that tier bonus to get back an entire mana pool via TC!
    The Holy Pally T14 4 pc changed their entire play style and was such a strong output/mana efficiency boost that it was worth using 4 pieces of ilvl 517 T14 over 535 gear. Our T15 2 pc isn't nearly that good; it's a 2-3% output increase, and with gear upgrades available right away, we would be keeping 543 T15 items over replacing them with 574 (heroic) or 580 (H TF) offset/T16 pieces. I just don't see that it's that likely that it will be worth keeping for the entire tier - maybe worth keeping Heroic T15 over normal T16 items, but definitely not Heroic/Heroic Thunderforged.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Playing around with LFR and the RSS addon on on the PTR, I am getting values for Mastery that are nearly equal to Crit for the same amount of itemization points. In 25H on live, Crit is showing as worth 2-4 times as much as Mastery per itemization point. My overheal (for Kork'ron Dark Shaman) was about 60%. This may be driven by 3/4 of LFR healers having no idea what they are doing and the ilvl being scaled down to 496, but it does appear that the value of Mastery has significantly increased with HR being a smart heal and HST (and it's naturally low overheal) becoming a much more significant component of our healing. However, even if both stats are equal, Crit is still better because of the Resurgence regen. That said, we will have to keep our eye on Mastery; it might beat Crit on some of the heroic fights that appear to have really low overheal next tier.

    I am also finding that I really like the Totemic Persistance talent. Yes, on paper, Call of the Elements should be better. However, in practice, being able to use HTT and HST/RS at the same time feels very powerful, and being able to drop MTT the second it's off cooldown instead of holding off for HST to not be up is also a pretty decent gain. With RS making HST such a huge deal, we lose a lot more from having to clip it (for example because you need HTT down immediately) than we do on live. In practice, I think that it will be a bigger output gain than Call of the Elements and probably something I will end up using unless I absolutely need Totemic Projection.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Tiberria View Post
    The Holy Pally T14 4 pc changed their entire play style and was such a strong output/mana efficiency boost that it was worth using 4 pieces of ilvl 517 T14 over 535 gear. Our T15 2 pc isn't nearly that good; it's a 2-3% output increase, and with gear upgrades available right away, we would be keeping 543 T15 items over replacing them with 574 (heroic) or 580 (H TF) offset/T16 pieces. I just don't see that it's that likely that it will be worth keeping for the entire tier - maybe worth keeping Heroic T15 over normal T16 items, but definitely not Heroic/Heroic Thunderforged.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Playing around with LFR and the RSS addon on on the PTR, I am getting values for Mastery that are nearly equal to Crit for the same amount of itemization points. In 25H on live, Crit is showing as worth 2-4 times as much as Mastery per itemization point. My overheal (for Kork'ron Dark Shaman) was about 60%. This may be driven by 3/4 of LFR healers having no idea what they are doing and the ilvl being scaled down to 496, but it does appear that the value of Mastery has significantly increased with HR being a smart heal and HST (and it's naturally low overheal) becoming a much more significant component of our healing. However, even if both stats are equal, Crit is still better because of the Resurgence regen. That said, we will have to keep our eye on Mastery; it might beat Crit on some of the heroic fights that appear to have really low overheal next tier.

    I am also finding that I really like the Totemic Persistance talent. Yes, on paper, Call of the Elements should be better. However, in practice, being able to use HTT and HST/RS at the same time feels very powerful, and being able to drop MTT the second it's off cooldown instead of holding off for HST to not be up is also a pretty decent gain. With RS making HST such a huge deal, we lose a lot more from having to clip it (for example because you need HTT down immediately) than we do on live. In practice, I think that it will be a bigger output gain than Call of the Elements and probably something I will end up using unless I absolutely need Totemic Projection.
    If thats true that mastery would be equal to crit point for point, it still makes mastery our worst stat since crit gives mana back and mastery doesnt

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Gendori View Post
    If thats true that mastery would be equal to crit point for point, it still makes mastery our worst stat since crit gives mana back and mastery doesnt
    Except that those numbers were at 59.7% overheal. Some of the fights on 25N/H testing (Norushen, Thok, etc.) have shown overheal in the 40% range. If that overheal level carries over to live (which I am highly skeptical of), Mastery may start overtaking Crit for some progression.

  14. #34
    I still cannot imagine dropping Projection for that little tiny bit hps.

    I mean, come on. It gives so much utility it's not even funny. Projecting Stormlash/Capacitor takes away the need to reposition for those. Projecting Healing Tide gives you a Tranq on the run without danger of running OOR. Projecting SLT not only improves it as a CD, but also lets you equalize HP of TWO groups. All too good to pass, in most cases.

    I guess in some oddball encounter where you can have HTT and HST up together twice and it matters (aka, there is no damage comming after HTT faded, or shortly after), and you dont need to do any of the above, it might be a good pick. But to not have to postpone MT? Nah, most people are fine with mana nowadays and the 5-10 seconds delay will not kill them.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Ranjit View Post
    I still cannot imagine dropping Projection for that little tiny bit hps.

    I mean, come on. It gives so much utility it's not even funny. Projecting Stormlash/Capacitor takes away the need to reposition for those. Projecting Healing Tide gives you a Tranq on the run without danger of running OOR. Projecting SLT not only improves it as a CD, but also lets you equalize HP of TWO groups. All too good to pass, in most cases.

    I guess in some oddball encounter where you can have HTT and HST up together twice and it matters (aka, there is no damage comming after HTT faded, or shortly after), and you dont need to do any of the above, it might be a good pick. But to not have to postpone MT? Nah, most people are fine with mana nowadays and the 5-10 seconds delay will not kill them.
    I don't know. There are a lot of fights where you are or should be in range of the entire raid anyway, which removes a lot of the utility from being able to project HST, HTT and Stormlash. Off hand, the only fights this tier where being able to project those is a huge deal are Ji Kun, Durumu and maybe Lei Shen in some places. I don't recall a single fight where I was asked to use Capacitor this expansion; generally, we always have other stuns that are more reliable because they can be used instantly and not have a 3-5 second charge time.

    The real value of Projection on the majority of fights is the ability to directionally place SLT, which is incredibly nice, but is something that it could be worth sacrificing for the sake of more water totem flexibility on some fights. Before 5.0, we had to deal with physically placing SLT, so it certainly is doable. As far as moving SLT to drop it across 2 groups, the only fight where I really have seen that be useful is Vizier. On most fights where the raid isn't stacked, you have a stacked melee group and a ranged group that is spread all over the place and that would only allow you to get like 2-3 people in an SLT if you tried to move it on them.

  16. #36
    Megaera and Lei Shen, prime examples of Capacitor usage. Lei Shen, if you drop unglyphed totem right when the balls spawn and project it to melee, it will go off around the time Shadowfury/Legsweep/whateveryou'reusing has worn off. Kinda nice. Meg, no need to explain, you drop all the cd's you can on the adds (especially last head), on progression anyway.

    I am perhaps positioning worse than you are, because i was getting constant complaints about OOR of stormlash from the melee group since as early as tier 14 normals. Projecting it midway between ranged and melee is a habit of mine already. Fights where it certainly matters and might happen this tier: Tortos, Meg, Jikun, Primordius, Qon, Twins. Durumu you can place it properly because due to icewalls you're pretty much in the same area. Lei Shen, on the start maybe, but p3 just drop it as the first person in cycle and you don't have to project it. Still, that's quite a lot instances.

    I agree that the only fight i can think of where redistribution was really helpful was Meg, for stragglers (ice vortex) to Rampage stack. So the SLT point goes out of the window here, and SoO seems to be much more clumped up so that shouldn't be an issue.

    For me, it's still a matter of habits. I am used to juggling water totems, i am used to being able to project stuff. Unless there's a major increase to hps (5%+), i am sure i'll do better sticking with what i am accustomed to.

  17. #37
    Which haste breakpoints are ya'll looking at?

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by rmlunsford View Post
    Which haste breakpoints are ya'll looking at?
    My thoughts are that we will want to go to the 8918 HST breakpoint at the start of the tier in ilvl 540+ gear. RS is going to be near mandatory, and HST is going to be 20-35% of our output, so HST breakpoints are huge. Totem breakpoints are still unreliable because of server latency issues, so you will probably want to gear to around 9100 haste. Going to that haste level is especially powerful for a Troll Shaman in 25 man, because it is also the breakpoint for an additional HTT tick with Berserking active. With HTT buffed 140% in 25 mans, it should be ~15% of our output, so this will be huge.

    In near BiS gear, I suspect we will all want to go for the 15,316 HR breakpoint. We will also get an additional (in addition to 8918) HST breakpoint along the way, which will make that a major throughput gain. I don't think it's worth going for until you are at the point where you don't have to gem pure haste and drop a lot of INT and SPI to get there though.

    I don't think ELW or RT breakpoints are worth gearing to. ELW is getting massively nerfed with the HR change, and the RT HOT both overheals a lot and is a very minor component of our output. HR, HST and HTT (in 25 mans) are all major output gains though.

  19. #39
    I think the thing to remember with haste breakpoints is properly evaluating what type of throughput that you are giving up in terms of other secondary stats. Using the most common stat priority of Crit > Mastery, the decision to gear to a particular breakpoint means that you are directly trading off Crit into Haste. For every 600 points of Crit that you drop, you are dropping 1% crit, and 1% raw throughput. You are also dropping about 5% of the effectiveness of Resurgence for every 1% crit that you lose.

    You have to make sure that the gain from those extra haste breakpoints adds enough actual throughput to be worth it. For example, to evaluate whether it's worth going from 7613 haste to 15,316 haste in near full T16 heroic gear. You are dropping 12.8% Crit to add that additional haste. In the process, you gain
    -1 tick of Healing Rain (9 instead of 8)
    -1 tick of Riptide (9 instead of 8)
    -1 tick of ELW (6 instead of 5)
    -1 tick of HTT (8 instead of 7)
    -2 ticks of HST (12 instead of 10)

    Assuming the following values as percentages of your total throughput. This is assuming 25 man HTT and speccing Rushing Streams and using approximate averages off PTR testing and logs I have seen.
    -30% Healing Rain - 3.8% output gain
    -22% HST - 4.4% output gain
    -14% HTT - 2% output gain
    -5% Riptide HoT - 0.6% output gain
    -4% ELW - 0.8% output gain

    Total - 11.6% output gain

    Looking at these numbers, it becomes really questionable whether the higher (15,316) haste breakpoint is really worth going for, because that breakdown nets you 11.6% more output at the cost of 12.8% crit (which is 12.8% more raw output), especially when you factor in that 12.8% crit is likely worth at least 2500 additional Spirit in terms of the Resurgence regen increase. Of course, the extra haste means faster reaction time and potentially more casts of CH (but then probably requires a higher Spirit level to take full advantage of), so possibly Resurgence versus faster cast times is a wash.

    It does indicate that the value of the 15,316 - HR9 breakpoint is kind of suspect though, and might not be worth the loss of Crit/other secondary stats to gear to. It's entirely possible that Crit builds (at least with the standard 7613 or 8882 breakpoints) are as good as/better than trying to gear haste that high.

  20. #40
    I can totally understand your optimism (and would like to be optimistic too) about stat weights at the start of tier 16; using the 8918 haste breakpoint priority over 7613 haste break sounds nice, but looking at it further seems underwhelming. Forgive me for any miscalculations, it's late and I'm tired, and using some numbers from above.

    Going from 7613 to 8918 haste would require 1305 haste rating, we'd gain 10.19% haste and an extra HST tic on occasion, but we'd losing 2.18% crit chance and raw throughput, and losing about 36% effectiveness in Resurgence.

    From the assumption HST is roughly a 4.4% output gain from two extra tics, the extra benefit we'd receive at 8918 haste would be about 2.2%, occasionally. Even at ~9100 haste and a guaranteed extra tic that 2.2% increase seems like a minor gain considering what we'd have to give up.

    I understand part of why you value 8918 Tibby is that you get a HTT boost because of you're racial, I would without question change to that haste breakpoint if I were a troll as well. I'm just not sold it's worthwhile for a 10 man without a troll bonus, but I do want to be convinced otherwise.
    Last edited by Barrun; 2013-09-07 at 03:37 PM.

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