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  1. #41
    Going from 7613 haste to 8918 haste would only require dropping 1305 Crit rating, which is 2.2% Crit. 600 Crit rating = 1% Crit. Without being a troll, it's almost a complete wash; both options are about a 2.2% theoretical output increase. As a troll, it closer to 4.2%, so it's clearly worth it.

  2. #42
    Doh, not sure where I got that crit value, modified it as to not mislead anyone. A wash looks about right, I suppose that's the way stat balance should be. Thanks for the numbers.

  3. #43
    Yeah I agree. For me staying at ~7613 as a non-troll is the best move. For trolls go for the ~8918 to utalize the extra HTT breakpoint with the racial. Can't see that mastery is gonna be any more useful than it has been, so crit for me after the haste breakpoints.

  4. #44
    Oh it's definitely going to be more useful than it has been. HR being intelligent, RSt talent, boosted Chainheal will all elevate throughput of mastery. Is it going to be higher than crit? I somehow doubt that

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Ranjit View Post
    Oh it's definitely going to be more useful than it has been. HR being intelligent, RSt talent, boosted Chainheal will all elevate throughput of mastery. Is it going to be higher than crit? I somehow doubt that
    Running the RSS addon on PTR LFR, I generally get results where Mastery and Crit have nearly identical values, whereas on live, Crit beats Mastery by a 3:1 or more margin almost universally. Of course, even if they are even, Crit will still be better because of the regen, but the HR/RS changes seem to have changed mastery from completely terrible to a decent stat. I could see mastery stacking being viable for heroic progression on fights like Thok, Norushen and Fallen Protectors if anything close to the low overheal levels from 25H testing carry over to live.

  6. #46
    I think the jury is still out on which stats we should go for. The only certainty is that we'll need at least 7613 haste rating, so my current plan is to get haste in every slot and then reforge out of as much as I don't want or need. This should be pretty flexible for trying out a mastery-heavy, crit-heavy or a 15k breakpoint build.

    As for choosing between crit and mastery: the relevant metric is the average hp at which your heals hit. If it's 64.7% or less then mastery starts pulling ahead of crit in a pure aoe healing environment. So it's a pretty simple decision in 25man, but it really depends on your raid setup (mainly on how many absorb healers you have and how good they are). So it's probably worth running an addon like RestoShamanStats during progression fights and then reforge/regem accordingly.

    I wouldn't even be surprised if we could go for an all out haste/crit heavy CH spam build towards the end of the tier and fully reforge out of spirit. I don't think the other healers in your team will like you very much if you do, though. There's also the hymn of hope buffs and then gear just having more spirit baseline, so I doubt any healer is going to be seriously struggling for mana.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by -swift View Post
    I wouldn't even be surprised if we could go for an all out haste/crit heavy CH spam build towards the end of the tier and fully reforge out of spirit. I don't think the other healers in your team will like you very much if you do, though. There's also the hymn of hope buffs and then gear just having more spirit baseline, so I doubt any healer is going to be seriously struggling for mana.
    I doubt that straight out CH spam, especially at high haste levels is going to be sustainable with a low Spirit build. On live, the closest thing to a fight where you straight up spam CH (between HR, HST and RT cooldowns) is Ra-Den, and I find less than 16,000 Spirit to be sketchy on that fight on pulls where I don't get good HLG/LMG RNG. The higher Crit will help a bit, but Crit is still only about 25% as strong as Spirit for regen. And that is at 7613 haste - at a higher haste level, you would need more regen than that to fully support it.

    With a low Spirit build, you realistically would have to at least use Totemic Recall on all HST/elementals, but probably also do the Magma totem during LMG procs thing. I doubt that the GCD cost of all the extra Magma Totems and Totemic Recalls you are casting would be worth the Spirit you could drop/extra secondary stats you could get. All of the extra GCDs mean less CHs cast and less throughput. When I did math on the low Spirit/Magma totem approach in 5.3, it barely came out ahead of running with a normal amount of Spirit. That was before Chain Heal was buffed 55% making the opportunity cost of GCDs even higher. At the very least, I can't see it coming enough ahead to be worth gimping the MTT return to the rest of the raid in 25 mans, and I doubt it comes ahead at all with the CH buff.

  8. #48
    On the other hand, Tib, the 15k-16k spirit is pretty easily achievable with just basic spirit on healer pieces, in 545+ ilvl gear. You can even gem for intellect as prio and you should still end up around the 15k-16k mark.

    Now in 5.4, with the new gear being even more ahead ilvl-wise (t14HC --> t15 normal was a 13 ilvl jump, now it's 18 ilvl's), with the addition of amp trinket (which boosts your spirit by at least 7%, so 15k becomes 16k+), i can easily imagine situation where we will be able to reforge out of some of the spirit and/or pick offpieces with pure throughput stats on them (although as of lately, most of them have spirit on it and there isn't a single one with haste/crit combo, sadly)

  9. #49
    I'd be more worried that 50% haste is unsustainable regardless of how your other stats are looking. At 50% haste using a straight CH>HW>HW rotation and nothing else, crit will give you just as much mana as spirit does (the numbers I'm getting here are 401.3mp5 for 600 crit and 398.8mp5 for 600 spirit with MTT). But even if you are in ilvl 374 gear and you are somehow reaching 50% haste, 25% crit and 12k spirit (which seems plausible), you are only going to be able to sustain such a rotation for around 180s. 240s if you are recalling every HST, but that's still miles away from chain casting stuff, while using RT, HST, UE and HR on CD. The issue is that chain casting anything at all with 50% haste is just too damn expensive.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Ranjit View Post
    On the other hand, Tib, the 15k-16k spirit is pretty easily achievable with just basic spirit on healer pieces, in 545+ ilvl gear. You can even gem for intellect as prio and you should still end up around the 15k-16k mark.

    Now in 5.4, with the new gear being even more ahead ilvl-wise (t14HC --> t15 normal was a 13 ilvl jump, now it's 18 ilvl's), with the addition of amp trinket (which boosts your spirit by at least 7%, so 15k becomes 16k+), i can easily imagine situation where we will be able to reforge out of some of the spirit and/or pick offpieces with pure throughput stats on them (although as of lately, most of them have spirit on it and there isn't a single one with haste/crit combo, sadly)
    Yeah, I currently am gearing to about a 16,000 Spirit soft cap. Using 2 INT trinkets, that means that I need to use Int/Spi gems in red and blue sockets and Int/Haste gems in yellow sockets to get to the desired Spirit level. With increased ilevel and more Spirit on gear, I will be able to start moving towards pure INT gems in red sockets and probably Int/Haste gems in yellow sockets.

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    Quote Originally Posted by -swift View Post
    I'd be more worried that 50% haste is unsustainable regardless of how your other stats are looking. At 50% haste using a straight CH>HW>HW rotation and nothing else, crit will give you just as much mana as spirit does (the numbers I'm getting here are 401.3mp5 for 600 crit and 398.8mp5 for 600 spirit with MTT). But even if you are in ilvl 374 gear and you are somehow reaching 50% haste, 25% crit and 12k spirit (which seems plausible), you are only going to be able to sustain such a rotation for around 180s. 240s if you are recalling every HST, but that's still miles away from chain casting stuff, while using RT, HST, UE and HR on CD. The issue is that chain casting anything at all with 50% haste is just too damn expensive.
    It probably won't be "spam non stop" sustainable at 50% haste on a fight like Ra-Den without going to like 23,000 Spirit or something. However, the real value of haste is the throughput from the extra breakpoints - the cast time reduction/extra casts is just a bonus. We do have the option of just not spam casting and/or using the TC glyph and mixing some Lightning Bolts in if you don't want to go to a higher Spirit level to support spam casting at 50% haste. I am more concerned that the extra haste required to go from 7613 or 8918 to 15,316 and the extra breakpoints gained don't add enough throughput to warrant the loss of Crit. Mathematically, it's pretty close to a wash, if not keeping the Crit coming out a little ahead.

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Tiberria View Post
    Yeah, I currently am gearing to about a 16,000 Spirit soft cap. Using 2 INT trinkets, that means that I need to use Int/Spi gems in red and blue sockets and Int/Haste gems in yellow sockets to get to the desired Spirit level. With increased ilevel and more Spirit on gear, I will be able to start moving towards pure INT gems in red sockets and probably Int/Haste gems in yellow sockets.
    I am curious, since you run the RSS addon. Why are gemming Int instead of Crit, whats your numbers there?
    On Live Int is never twice as good as crit for me, so gemming Int for pure HPS purpose makes no sense.
    Did something changed or is it just a preference of you?

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Tethos View Post
    I am curious, since you run the RSS addon. Why are gemming Int instead of Crit, whats your numbers there?
    On Live Int is never twice as good as crit for me, so gemming Int for pure HPS purpose makes no sense.
    Did something changed or is it just a preference of you?
    Well, RSS doesn't show you the value of Int compared to Crit.

    As far as INT vs Crit, you have to remember that
    (1) Int scales 10% with both armor specialization and Kings, so 160 INT is actualy 177 INT
    (2) Int increases Crit rating. The multiplier is about 1 INT = 0.29 Crit rating.

    A 160 INT gem is effectively worth 177 INT and 51 Crit, so comparing a Crit gem to an INT gem, you are effectively deciding between 177 INT and 269 Crit.

    Also, crits on things like HST and HTT ticks especially (but possibly even HR ticks with the new mechanics) tend to have much higher overhealing than non crits. As a result, you tend to gain less effective output from throughput added by Crit than you do from throughput added by INT.

  13. #53
    Ok thanks, i thought RSS factored that already in. Well still, crit gives you a significant amount of manareg.
    i tried full int gemming last week and had some mana issues too, even had to reforge even more crit into spirit to not get oom.
    Have to calculate whats better Int+Spirit or just pure Crit.
    or just stick towhats working for me.

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Tiberria View Post
    It probably won't be "spam non stop" sustainable at 50% haste on a fight like Ra-Den without going to like 23,000 Spirit or something. However, the real value of haste is the throughput from the extra breakpoints - the cast time reduction/extra casts is just a bonus. We do have the option of just not spam casting and/or using the TC glyph and mixing some Lightning Bolts in if you don't want to go to a higher Spirit level to support spam casting at 50% haste. I am more concerned that the extra haste required to go from 7613 or 8918 to 15,316 and the extra breakpoints gained don't add enough throughput to warrant the loss of Crit. Mathematically, it's pretty close to a wash, if not keeping the Crit coming out a little ahead.
    If all you're looking at are haste breakpoint gains, then yes, haste is going to be slightly worse than crit. But it should pull ahead from a throughput perspective once you can afford casting additional filler spells.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tethos View Post
    Ok thanks, i thought RSS factored that already in. Well still, crit gives you a significant amount of manareg.
    i tried full int gemming last week and had some mana issues too, even had to reforge even more crit into spirit to not get oom.
    Have to calculate whats better Int+Spirit or just pure Crit.
    or just stick towhats working for me.
    IIRC, RSS is only looking at the spellpower gains from intellect.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Tiberria View Post
    Well, RSS doesn't show you the value of Int compared to Crit.
    The math part for spellpower and intellect DOES include the additional scaling of Int as well as the critrating you gain from Int.

    However I'm not really sure about the correctness of this addon. It tells me that crit is better than Int, but after going from full crit gems to full int gems my output seemed to be higher..

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by -swift View Post
    If all you're looking at are haste breakpoint gains, then yes, haste is going to be slightly worse than crit. But it should pull ahead from a throughput perspective once you can afford casting additional filler spells.
    But, you also have to take into account that casting those extra filler spells that haste lets you cast cost more mana and require more total regen. If say 12,000 is your personal Spirit level to be able to chain cast filler spells at 7613 haste, you are going to need a lot more Spirit to be able to go to 15,316 haste and take full advantage of the cast time reduction/more spells that can be cast. You can definitely stay at the same Spirit level and just throttle your casts/use Totemic Recall cheesing more often/use the TC glyph and Lightning Bolts. But, if you do that, you can't really consider the extra casts from adding more haste to be part of value of haste (outside of having a little more burst), because you aren't actually taking advantage of it.

    You also have to factor in that Crit adds effective regen, and in most cases, when you are moving stats to Haste, you are directly taking them out of Crit, which is reducing your effective regen by about 1 Spirit per 4 Crit that you drop. Even if you cast the same amount at 15,316 haste as you cast at 7613 haste (i.e. you don't cast more filler spells and just use haste for the extra breakpoints), you are still probably going to need more Spirit because of the Crit loss.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Duno3 View Post
    The math part for spellpower and intellect DOES include the additional scaling of Int as well as the critrating you gain from Int.

    However I'm not really sure about the correctness of this addon. It tells me that crit is better than Int, but after going from full crit gems to full int gems my output seemed to be higher..
    I think it might have a lot to do with the fact that the throughput added by Crit tends to proportionately add more overheal than the throughput added by INT. It makes some sense; a stat that adds a small amount of extra throughput to every ability will add less overheal than a stat that increases the random chance for an ability to do twice as much healing.

  17. #57
    Hey Tib, do you have anything in mind for BiS?

    Thanks Yoni for the signature!
    RDRUID: Radfox

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by snapfox View Post
    Hey Tib, do you have anything in mind for BiS?
    Not really, yet. I want to see how the final numbers on the trinkets (Thoks/Nazgrims) play out, and if our 4 piece gets adjusted or not to make it worth going for.

  19. #59
    If I'm going to be doing Normal modes and using Normal mode gear, and it's probably not really realistic for me to go for the 15k haste break point, do we know which trinkets should be best yet? I'm assuming the Samophlange is a given for pretty much any scenario, but do I still want the Amp trinket if I'm not going for the break point? I was thinking Thok's, but I'm not sure if there's been any testing done yet to determine if Thok's and/or Nazgrim's is better throughput than the Amp trinket and which of the two is best between themselves.

    Edit: 25 man Normal, btw.

  20. #60
    Are you all really convinced on haste breakpoints? I've been gemming pure crit in yellow/prismatic, int/spirit or int/crit in red, spirit or spirit/crit in blue, keeping around ~12500 spirit + horridon N + shado-pan at item level 538. My throughput is off the charts and my mana is fine. Are you seeing improvements from sacrificing so much crit for haste?

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