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  1. #21
    Dreadlord KenjiEvans's Avatar
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    Chieftain to the Hellscreams
    Who are they? his unknown family in the Warsong Clan?

  2. #22
    Herald of the Titans Wishblade's Avatar
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    Gonna have to sit down and read this sometime. Yet again, I sure do look forward to when we're all done with Garrosh, too many whiny people complaining.
    "Reminds me of a dog, you stare at it while it's playing outside... Running around in a circle, then stopping up, wagging with a wide "grin". Jumping around until you call for the dog, then it lowers its tail because it think it's done something bad... And then you throw the ball, seeing the tail go straight into the air in bliss! ^^" - Gehco
    Wishblade of Kazzak EU

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by KenjiEvans View Post
    Who are they? his unknown family in the Warsong Clan?
    Oh, heh. Good catch, whoops. I said "Hellscreams" instead of "Warsong" a couple different times, actually. I've been mixing up and forgetting Warcraft names a LOT lately, I don't know why. I even keep refering to Kael'thas as 'Kael'thalas' and stuff.

  4. #24
    What Traask said is true for those Pro Garrosh Fangirls as I prefer to call them. He however forgot one more thing to mention about them. You see those Pro Garrosh like Garrosh because they like war and destruction but you see there is a problem here. You like something when you are winning. Now that they are losing badly and they are ranting against everything that is beating them. First it was Jaina, Then Wrathion, Then Taran Zhu, Then Varian and the list goes on. Those people are content and pro war only if you are winning but they are yelling like bitches when the tables turn.

    My tip to those Pro Garrosh Fanclub. Deal with it. You tried to conquer a planet where the Horde is a guest and tried to take over lands you didn't belong to and you lost the game. Deal with it, take it like a man and pay the consequences because actions bring consequences and there isn't a single game in history where the villain can ever win.

    - - - Updated - - -

    On the other hand though I also agree that Garrosh indeed is the most interesting villain ever made. They are making him to be hated with all our hearts so much that we are waiting to destroy Orgrimmar to the ground to get to him.


    I wish they did the same with Arthas which was my favorite villain or Deathwing or Illidan.

  5. #25
    I am Murloc! Peaky Blinder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mails-Prowers View Post
    What Traask said is true for those Pro Garrosh Fangirls as I prefer to call them. He however forgot one more thing to mention about them. You see those Pro Garrosh like Garrosh because they like war and destruction but you see there is a problem here. You like something when you are winning. Now that they are losing badly and they are ranting against everything that is beating them. First it was Jaina, Then Wrathion, Then Taran Zhu, Then Varian and the list goes on. Those people are content and pro war only if you are winning but they are yelling like bitches when the tables turn.

    My tip to those Pro Garrosh Fanclub. Deal with it. You tried to conquer a planet where the Horde is a guest and tried to take over lands you didn't belong to and you lost the game. Deal with it, take it like a man and pay the consequences because actions bring consequences and there isn't a single game in history where the villain can ever win.

    - - - Updated - - -

    On the other hand though I also agree that Garrosh indeed is the most interesting villain ever made. They are making him to be hated with all our hearts so much that we are waiting to destroy Orgrimmar to the ground to get to him.


    I wish they did the same with Arthas which was my favorite villain or Deathwing or Illidan.
    We have dealt with it we dealt with it the moment we heard that garrosh was gonna be a raid boss

    Its like supporting a losing team you know he is gonna lose becuase you have been told but it doesnt stop us justifying and supporting his doomed goals.

    I support garrosh because i believe in him and yes i know he will lose because blizzard told us but i will support the guy and justify his actions in the world HE lives in. Garrosh does not live in our world with our 21st century ideals he lives in Azeroth where everything wants to kill you and he lives in a wind swept desert that is just filled with killer scorpions.

  6. #26
    Please. That Resource Excuse died a long time ago. Don't bring that up again. You may like the character but as I mentioned before he was fighting a senseless war he couldn't win just to make up for his father's legacy. Of course you can talk like this as it is a video game and bears no consequences in real life but since there are countless dimensions and realities imagine a reality where this is reversed and you would be the victim of Hellscream. Would you be liking it then?

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Mails-Prowers View Post
    My tip to those Pro Garrosh Fanclub. Deal with it. You tried to conquer a planet where the Horde is a guest and tried to take over lands you didn't belong to and you lost the game. Deal with it, take it like a man and pay the consequences because actions bring consequences and there isn't a single game in history where the villain can ever win.
    But I didn't try to conquer a planet! Really! Hmm. Okay, I tried, but it didn't work.

    The problem with Garrosh is that Blizzard couldn't handle his story arc in which he becomes the "evil guy" well enough, so it left a big amount of players either confused or simply still liking the character and his style - me included. You can see what they were trying to do - create a character that progresses with the story, that is relatable and close to the players so they can understand the reasons behind his downfall.

    Take "Scareface", one of my favourite movies, as an example. The main character, Tony Montana, goes a long way from being an insignificant refugee to becoming a criminal overlord. Each step he takes makes the viewer understand his motivations even more, gradually shows his slow corruption and turning into the person he becomes at the end of the movie. And in the last scenes, when all of his evil acts are done, when eachmoment of his criminal life has been portrayed, the viewer has no second thoughts - the character dying right now dies for good reasons, we want to see him die. There was no uproar, no people whining about the ending, no critics complaining about sensless villianizing a good character.

    WoW did not succeed here. Blizzard tried the same thing - gradually showing the downfall of Garrosh and his corruption, until nobody stands up for him - but they failed, and as an outcome, many players who did like Hellscream before simply keep liking him now, seeing how his corrpution is not portrayed well enough. And no - none of those players is a serial killer, maniac or evil scientist. The fact that I tried to take over a planet is just an exception that proves the rule.

  8. #28
    I am Murloc! Peaky Blinder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Okacz View Post
    But I didn't try to conquer a planet! Really! Hmm. Okay, I tried, but it didn't work.

    The problem with Garrosh is that Blizzard couldn't handle his story arc in which he becomes the "evil guy" well enough, so it left a big amount of players either confused or simply still liking the character and his style - me included. You can see what they were trying to do - create a character that progresses with the story, that is relatable and close to the players so they can understand the reasons behind his downfall.

    Take "Scareface", one of my favourite movies, as an example. The main character, Tony Montana, goes a long way from being an insignificant refugee to becoming a criminal overlord. Each step he takes makes the viewer understand his motivations even more, gradually shows his slow corruption and turning into the person he becomes at the end of the movie. And in the last scenes, when all of his evil acts are done, when eachmoment of his criminal life has been portrayed, the viewer has no second thoughts - the character dying right now dies for good reasons, we want to see him die. There was no uproar, no people whining about the ending, no critics complaining about sensless villianizing a good character.

    WoW did not succeed here. Blizzard tried the same thing - gradually showing the downfall of Garrosh and his corruption, until nobody stands up for him - but they failed, and as an outcome, many players who did like Hellscream before simply keep liking him now, seeing how his corrpution is not portrayed well enough. And no - none of those players is a serial killer, maniac or evil scientist. The fact that I tried to take over a planet is just an exception that proves the rule.
    Exactly what ive been trying to put across for ages

  9. #29
    The thing is that they didn't needed to do to Garrosh what they did to Grom. They should have tried something else with him.

    You need to understand that Warcraft has the priviledge to show the Orc as something different than the other games. If I wanted to play a Bloodthirsty Orc that does Wars and Conquests I would have played Warhammer. I like the concept of the Horde Faction being a faction of races that are honorable unlike other games. I don't want a repeat of Warhammer. That is what most Garrosh fans haven't understanded yet.

  10. #30
    I am Murloc! Peaky Blinder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mails-Prowers View Post
    The thing is that they didn't needed to do to Garrosh what they did to Grom. They should have tried something else with him.

    You need to understand that Warcraft has the priviledge to show the Orc as something different than the other games. If I wanted to play a Bloodthirsty Orc that does Wars and Conquests I would have played Warhammer. I like the concept of the Horde Faction being a faction of races that are honorable unlike other games. I don't want a repeat of Warhammer. That is what most Garrosh fans haven't understanded yet.
    Then what is it that you want? What is it that Trassk wants? please tell me?

  11. #31
    Cooperation.There is already enough war on warcraft. It doesn't have to do with Orcs vs Humans again. This story chapter ended with the first warcrafts. They have more things to win together than being weak separate.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by rowaasr13 View Post
    Please, speak for yourself. As for you, you've just confirmed 100% that
    So you'd enjoy a story with no conflict?

    Me liking Garrosh as a character who creates conflict has absolutely nothing to do with him being a character that does what he wants without consequence or learning from mistakes, nor do I have any desire to be similar to him.

    I found Lord Godfrey to be interesting because he created conflict as well, while being a character that does what he's ordered to despite disagreeing with it.
    I like Taran Zhu as a character because he creates conflict in a way that the calm and accepting pandaren do not. But he is a character who lives his life following a specific code and submitting to superiors (Xuen).
    You tried too hard and now your post is shit. Never try too hard, the gamble isn't worth it. -Boubouille

  13. #33
    The Insane Trassk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mails-Prowers View Post

    On the other hand though I also agree that Garrosh indeed is the most interesting villain ever made. They are making him to be hated with all our hearts so much that we are waiting to destroy Orgrimmar to the ground to get to him.


    I wish they did the same with Arthas which was my favorite villain or Deathwing or Illidan.
    totally. I have to say thats the one thing I felt they did right in all this. With Arthas and the trailer and lead up to us killing him, even with that expectation building as we climbed to the higher point of icc, it was epic, but it didn't feel like something personal, it felt like we were going to kill this long standing villain, like dr doom or magneto.
    With Garrosh, it feels personal, when I saw the trailer, all that went though my head is 'I want to kill this bastard, right now'. And that in itself is an achievement for blizzard, to make a character to the level of wanting to do that.

  14. #34
    I am Murloc! Peaky Blinder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mails-Prowers View Post
    Cooperation.There is already enough war on warcraft. It doesn't have to do with Orcs vs Humans again. This story chapter ended with the first warcrafts. They have more things to win together than being weak separate.
    Ive said this a million times that sort of thing sounds great in a movie or a book but sucks in a video game

    this game thrives on conflict and pvp and interfaction rivalry and like ive said when wow is bitten the dust maybe you will get what you want

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    But, once it got to the first patch prior to wrath, and seen how he acted against Thrall, I realised even back then, oooooh, this is what they intend to do with him. Through absolutely no explaination as to why, suddenly Garrosh transformed into an angry, loud mouthed punk that can't let go of his daddy issues and is hostile to everyone around him him and hates the alliance, despite never having anything to do with them before this.

    And it just went from there, Garrosh showing himself as being more angry, more desperate, more war crazy, and even that mild, TINY moment in stonetalon every garrosh fanboy references as his 'growing up moment', was shot down by the end of expact showing what a dick he was, which just confirmed even more to me, yeah, blizzard didn't make this character to be liked, they made him to be hated by others, as all other races of the horde and the alliance now do.
    He ordered that, and then proceeded to cover his tracks. That is what a manipulative narcissistic bastard does. Stonetalon was a test run.

    Garrosh: What have you done Krom'gar?
    Krom'gar: Warchief! I ... I was carrying out your command!
    What is significant to note is that he comes through the portal just as this happens. He KNOWS about it. If he didn't approve, he would've stepped through to stop it.

    He then proceeds to immediately dispose of the only witness to the command; then wants to murder you as a witness and having direct communication with Krom'gar as his assistant, you know too much and he assumes you a liability until the tauren begs for your life and pleads your innocence.

    There was a raid on Ashenvale after we defeated LK and there was a tenuous peace treaty at hand. Garrosh opposed this treaty very strongly and very openly. The raid killed a bunch of nelves.

    An orc raid on Ashenvale occured again after Thrall left for Outland to get in touch with his shaman side, readopting himself as Go'el. I believe Garrosh had his hand in this, though I think somewhere it said it was twilight cultists.

    For Garrosh to even accept a weapon from a Grimtotem; when they have always been an issue to both Horde and Alliance, especially in Dustwallow Marsh, they are not the peaceful nomadic tauren, they are aggressive and deceitful. They have always opposed Cairne. Magatha was in Thunder Bluff solely for Cairne to keep an eye on her.

    If Garrosh was so peaceful and wise; he would've known not to trust a known enemy to one of the faction leaders, regardless of any fight they are having. Again, if he was plotting disguised malice, he'd be publicly shocked at the poisoned blade, while it was his intention. He would then, as in Stonetalon, try to eliminate the possibility of his ruse to be discovered. He didn't have to directly cooperate with Magatha, he knew her intentions and her character. The only action he needed was a strong one against her after the fact. He did not kill her on the spot, this is another clue. He allowed her to flee as to allow the charade to continue. Image of his actions later is part of the propaganda machine.

    What I am implying, is that Garrosh early on, was much more scheming. He was good at this and his character is deeper than people give credit for. It is just now that he has great power, he also has great pride. He sees no reason to hide his intentions. There is no longer sending an assassin to slit the throat of the troll leader. No need for not allowing the right hand to know what the left is doing. He straight up imprisoned and killed trolls who lived in Ogrimmar. He no longer cared if they were rebels or not; they were just simply a threat because they were the same race as Vol'jin, and he had built up his power, his army, and twisted the elements enough to where he knew opposition by anyone but the most powerful of foes would be useless.



    I think this all originated from being weak in his youth; the doubt, the worry ... he built up his defenses in his mind to tackle all of this insecurity and woes; and once he started getting real power, understanding his blood line wasn't what he always fretted ... he gained pride and confidence, but didn't lose those defense mechanisms he had when he was just a broken orc. He was still secretive with his plots, but with the confidence to express his rage. He had no experience. He had nothing to temper himself. He was weak but believed himself strong. He knew nothing of remorse any longer because with the revelation of his father being good after believing him a monster; ends justify the means. While he may not dip into demonic blood for power, everything else was on the shelf; no matter how wreckless, no matter the consequences, even orcish deaths. There is nothing he won't risk for battle. Lok'tar Ogar; yes, but you have no honor if you sacrifice your troops like pawns, or kill indiscriminately.

    from Warsong Hold in WotLK:

    Garrosh Hellscream says: Propose? I will show you what I propose!

    Garrosh crushes the figures and flag indicating Valiance Keep on the map.

    Garrosh Hellscream says: There... Now we now have a shipping lane. And just for good measure...

    Garrosh crushes the figures and flag indicating Valgarde and Westguard Keep.

    High Overlord Saurfang says: So the prodigal son has spoken! Your father's blood runs strong in you, Hellscream. Impatient as always... Impatient and reckless. You rush headlong into all-out war without a thought of the consequences.
    Garrosh Hellscream says: Do not speak to me of consequences, old one.
    High Overlord Saurfang says: I drank of the same blood your father did, Garrosh. Mannoroth's cursed venom pumped through my veins as well. I drove my weapons into the bodies and minds of my enemies. And while Grom died a glorious death - freeing us all from the blood curse - he could not wipe away the terrible memory of our past. His act could not erase the horrors we committed.
    High Overlord Saurfang says: The winter after the curse was lifted, hundreds of veteran orcs like me were lost to despair. Our minds were finally free, yes... Free to relive all of the unthinkable acts that we had performed under the Legion's influence.
    High Overlord Saurfang nods.
    High Overlord Saurfang says: I think it was the sounds of the draenei children that unnerved most of them... You never forget... Have you ever been to Jaggedswine Farm? When the swine are of age for the slaughter... It's that sound. The sound of the swine being killed... It resonates the loudest. Those are hard times for us older veterans.
    Garrosh Hellscream says: But surely you cannot think that those children were born into innocence? They would have grown up and taken arms against us!
    High Overlord Saurfang shakes his head.
    High Overlord Saurfang says: I am not speaking solely of the children of our enemies...
    High Overlord Saurfang says: I won't let you take us down that dark path again, young Hellscream. I'll kill you myself before that day comes...
    Garrosh Hellscream says: How have you managed to survive for so long, Saurfang? Not fallen victim to your own memories?
    High Overlord Saurfang says: I don't eat pork...
    High Overlord Saurfang spits.

    And now, he may not be drinking from the blood of demons, he has taken it quite a few steps further. He is siphoning the power from the lingering spirit of an Old God, corrupting and torturing the elements, and killing anyone who even doubts him (which is not the same as an enemy combatant).

    He is just a maniac, and always has been. Actually, I think the term is psychopath. He has no sense of moral. He has no respect for life outside of his narrow view of what deserves it (Orcs of the 'True Horde'). This is nothing like his father. This is nothing like his people. He is a disgrace to all orcs (of the Warcraft universe). This is why he deserves to die in SoO. It is a shame some orcs are too stupid to break free from the old paradigm and will die serving a mass murderer from some misguided sense of honor (Nazgrim).

  16. #36
    The Insane Trassk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Combooticus View Post
    Ive said this a million times that sort of thing sounds great in a movie or a book but sucks in a video game

    this game thrives on conflict and pvp and interfaction rivalry and like ive said when wow is bitten the dust maybe you will get what you want
    the problem with your kind of opinion on this, is how you don't leave room for any kind of balance in this.

    Yes, there can be conflict, and finding legitimate reasons to fight makes for a story of conflict. But just having a story of conflict alone without anything else is BORING.

    What makes a more compelling story, is knowing the conflict is there, but having characters and even factions the work around it, or even those within said factions who have character developed based around those on the other side of the fence.

    Romeo and juliet was a compelling story, because it was one about how two families were at war with one another, and yet two of there own fell in love, and even died for one another because of that love, being of tragidy, still regarded as one of the most powerful love stories ever written.

    But opening up the possibility of character on the other side of the fence forming bonds with those of the other faction, yet knowing they can't fully explore it because of there responsbility to there faction, is a far more entertaining story to read about, then just having some idiots wanting to fight for the sake of fighting.

  17. #37
    Once more Coombooticus you are mistaken. Warcraft lost half it's population due to this shitty story and the conflict that you liked so much. So no. Warcraft doesn't need another Orc vs Human Scenario. This Chapter closed already. It's time for something new.

    Those that are asking for conflict and senseless war in warcraft are usually people who have no idea of the story behind warcraft and just discovered warcraft during WOTLK or Cataclysm.

    As I said however the conflict and war you think a game needs managed to remove half of it's population from it.

    Having conflict and skirmitches is ok but waging up a war that you know in the end you are going to lose is idiotic.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Hitei View Post
    So you'd enjoy a story with no conflict?
    Me liking Garrosh as a character who creates conflict has absolutely nothing to do with him being a character that does what he wants without consequence or learning from mistakes, nor do I have any desire to be similar to him.
    Was WC3 story without conflict? Was it Orcs vs. Humans? I hope you know that answers are "no" and "no". I enjoyed it.

  19. #39
    The Insane Trassk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mails-Prowers View Post
    Once more Coombooticus you are mistaken. Warcraft lost half it's population due to this shitty story and the conflict that you liked so much. So no. Warcraft doesn't need another Orc vs Human Scenario. This Chapter closed already. It's time for something new.

    Those that are asking for conflict and senseless war in warcraft are usually people who have no idea of the story behind warcraft and just discovered warcraft during WOTLK or Cataclysm.

    As I said however the conflict and war you think a game needs managed to remove half of it's population from it.

    Having conflict and skirmitches is ok but waging up a war that you know in the end you are going to lose is idiotic.
    its not just that, its just how utterly ridiculous those people who think there side will win a war now, in the setting of world of warcraft. People here legitimately think there side, whoever it is, will win in an all out war.. and yet when war happens, and it turns out neither side really win, they then bitch about how blizzard isn't trying hard enough. In there egotistical brains, they think with war on, there faction is in the right to it, and so will win in a war.. What they DON'T understand, is how neither side can actually win, they cannot beat one another in all out war, it will never happen!
    The Game is about two factions, about trying to live and survive in this world, and that is all the story will ever extend to, because the developers will never make it that one faction wins any war.

    Knowing that, and its a matter of fact now, people still think wow needs war, so they can create the illusion in there minds of winning a war and beating the opposing faction. This delusion never ends.

  20. #40
    I am Murloc! Peaky Blinder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    the problem with your kind of opinion on this, is how you don't leave room for any kind of balance in this.

    Yes, there can be conflict, and finding legitimate reasons to fight makes for a story of conflict. But just having a story of conflict alone without anything else is BORING.

    What makes a more compelling story, is knowing the conflict is there, but having characters and even factions the work around it, or even those within said factions who have character developed based around those on the other side of the fence.

    Romeo and juliet was a compelling story, because it was one about how two families were at war with one another, and yet two of there own fell in love, and even died for one another because of that love, being of tragidy, still regarded as one of the most powerful love stories ever written.

    But opening up the possibility of character on the other side of the fence forming bonds with those of the other faction, yet knowing they can't fully explore it because of there responsbility to there faction, is a far more entertaining story to read about, then just having some idiots wanting to fight for the sake of fighting.
    Who said he couldnt evolve and learn? He tried to do that countless times

    Look at the time he was gonna throw my ass off that bridge but learns mercy from that tauren who lost his whole family dont you remember that whole chat log?

    He was never given the chance too instead he was shoehorned to become a raid boss cause people was laughing at blizzs panda xpac

    All people are asking trassk is that you tone down your hate for a fictional character and that you start to look at things from his garroshes view in a world he lives in.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Mails-Prowers View Post
    Once more Coombooticus you are mistaken. Warcraft lost half it's population due to this shitty story and the conflict that you liked so much. So no. Warcraft doesn't need another Orc vs Human Scenario. This Chapter closed already. It's time for something new.

    Those that are asking for conflict and senseless war in warcraft are usually people who have no idea of the story behind warcraft and just discovered warcraft during WOTLK or Cataclysm.

    As I said however the conflict and war you think a game needs managed to remove half of it's population from it.

    Having conflict and skirmitches is ok but waging up a war that you know in the end you are going to lose is idiotic.
    Im not sure if i wanna dignify this with a answer

    But ok i will bite yeah i can bore you with loses in the Asian market or the fact MMOs are crashing atm but blizz has managed to steady the ship in a dying market.

    It aint cause of the story trust me i dont know anyone who quit becuase garrosh became warchief or the fact garrosh will be deposed!

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