[5.4 WW PTR] Crazy idea about SEF and FoF, calling all theorycrafters

[Totaltotemic]

Okay, ordinarily this would go in the super long 5.4 WW PTR thread, but I just found something that I think requires its own thread.


We've been going along, trying to figure out what in the world the deal is with WW's DPS on the PTR, thinking that level 90 talents and mastery were the only things that had changed for single-target DPS, and have been separating SEF from the discussion. Today I remembered something that we found out way back when SEF was introduced: the spirit will not copy your abilities on the same target, but it WILL copy FoF as it is technically an AoE. It will also continue auto-attacking. As it turns out, SEF was heavily buffed on the PTR, such that with one spirit out (can't put both on the same target unfortunately) you do a combined 150% of your original damage (75% each).

I hypothesize that using SEF on your current target (with 4 banked chi, or chi brew, whatever you like) followed by a TP, RSK, Jab, FoF combo (followed by a swift /cancelaura Storm, Earth, and Fire macro) will do roughly 30% more damage (50% more on the FoF but 25% reduction on TP, RSK, and Jab) in that 6 second window than without SEF. Using TEB with this combo amplifies that gain. I just tested it on the PTR, but unfortunately the NPCs that sell gear are not available at this very moment so I can't test this with a proper setup on my template character, but I did a rough numbers check and the SEF + TP + RSK + FoF combo is producing roughly 30% more damage in that window than without the spirit, and this would be incredibly inflated with a low to no haste Crit/Mastery build with Assurance of Conquest (FoF is one of the cooldowns lowered, down to 16 seconds with the normal mode trinket based on math).

I could use as many bodies as possible to test and verify this before I go crazy. Help me MMO-Champion forums, you're my only hope.

Edit: Update again, neither TP or RSK actually affects the spirit's damage if you take away all procs and look at it empirically, making total you + spirit damage about 131% rather than 150%. This is still a big gain but for theorycrafting purposes it means that you don't have to RSK or TP after summoning the spirit, just SEF and let the spirit get into attack position, FoF, and dismiss.

[DupedGG]

Whether this is an increase or not, I doubt that the devs are doing this or expecting that we will. Curious to see the results though.

[Deleted]

Help me MMO-Champion forums, you're my only hope.

lol, made my day

[shadowfyre27]

Well this would definitely be the player base coming up with some that the devs most likely would not have thought about lol. I'm unable to get on the ptr atm but, I am definitely interested in seeing what the results are. I'll be bookmarking this thread to keep with it.

[Senka]

There's no GCD triggered from cancelling Storm, Earth, and Fire because it's a buff. Where are you getting this reduction to single-target abilities from?

Anyway yes, many things in 5.4 seem to de-emphasize Haste, so builds that don't have it so high should become viable once in Tier 16 gear. I still predict Haste priority builds will be highest (if using Chi Brew) but that one trinket plus the 2PC/4PC bonuses emphasizing Crit/Mastery respectively may change that.

[Callypso]

Have been toying with this thought for a few days but kinda dismissed it because of the whole 'don't attack the same target thing'. But since you brought it up.... brb PTR ><

- - - Updated - - -

Posted in the other thread, just doubleposting it here as well as i promised:

I did a few tests with Storm, Earth and Fire on PTR.

Where am I going with this?

Imagine this with more fists of fury usage and the cooldown reduction trinket, as well as more properly reforged gear (As i've not bothered read up on monks cause lolalt)

Some dummy-testing on the PTR confirms your theoretical Ra-den example: It resulted in almost identical DPS compared to NOT using SEF (slight loss). Which means that assuming you stick the clone on a boss, it will likely be a 'free' dps gain on anything that requires target switching of any sort. Alternatively you could cast the clone just before you FoF and then cancel it, but that would be a LOT of micro-managing for what I reckon will be a marginal dps gain (if at all). I.e. it's more likely it'll fuck up somewhere and drop your dps instead.

[Deleted]

Just some brainstorming, completely without math: Since in the other thread RJW was mentioned not to be reduced by SEF, but copied by both you and your clone - the once mentioned RJW single target rota could be tested in this light once again. Since Jab / whatever you do with your Chi is reduced by 25%, but RJW buffed by 50%.

On the other hand, to the speculation that this is what Blizz meant: Lore's post said it was mostly a discrepancy in secondary stats, not in playstyle / damage breakdown (iirc). So while this turns out to be a DPS increase, I'm not sure that's what Lore meant.

[Totaltotemic]

There's no GCD triggered from cancelling Storm, Earth, and Fire because it's a buff. Where are you getting this reduction to single-target abilities from?

You need a GCD to put it up, and it must be up for TP and RSK because the spirit carries its own TP and RSK tracking. It barely breaks even and is a wase of time without getting those buffs up, however with FoF on a 25 (or less with AoC) second CD you should be using TP right around then anyways. The reduction comes from the TP, RSK, and Jab not being copied by the spirit, so it s just you doing 75% of normal damae with them.

Also, if you dig into Lore and GC's twitter profiles looking for Windwalker tweets, nothing they said has anything to do with stats except the one forum post by Lore. They kept hinting at a designed rotation that players hadn't figured out, and tht people were too quick to call it a bug or that they should just buff DPS because if someone ever did figure it out that would make WW OP.


@Callypso, I don't agree with the few people trying to shoehorn it into working by throwing SEF up and leaving it there all fight, it's an unnecessary reduction to every Jab, TP, BoK, Chi Wave, and RSK between FoF just because it's difficult to work with. If we're to use this at all, it should be in the way that benefits DPS the most, too many problems with leaving it up all fight.

Edit: had not thought about RJW, that... could be interesting. Unfortunately I'm not at home right now to hop on the PTR and test it.

[Tehterokkar]

This is some Next Level shit.

Turns WW rotation into a clusterfuck I'd imagine if you have to do this sequence every 20 seconds or so.

[Totaltotemic]

Something I overlooked that I just had to go back and test: RSK does not trigger on the same target for the spirit so it will not get its own debuff. For best use, summon the spirit after RSK, but always make sure it has TP before FoF.

@Tehterokkar some people in the other thread are playing with the idea of it being up permanently, should only be 3-4% DPS lower than only summoning it for FoF, so there is the option to go the simple route.

[Tehterokkar]

3-4% DPS lower or not, the top people will still do it the right way for that small boost. It's like not even negotiable among the top WW monk raiders.

[Totaltotemic]

Well I would take piano lessons if it meant that I wouldn't have to willingly sit myself on some 5.4 fights because of low DPS, having to pull off a combo like this is a small price to pay for the peace of mind that I'm not hurting my raid by staying in on tight DPS checks.

[NeverStop]

Something I overlooked that I just had to go back and test: RSK does not trigger on the same target for the spirit so it will not get its own debuff. For best use, summon the spirit after RSK, but always make sure it has TP before FoF.

@Tehterokkar some people in the other thread are playing with the idea of it being up permanently, should only be 3-4% DPS lower than only summoning it for FoF, so there is the option to go the simple route.

You can't summon your spirit and then cast FoF immediately. The spirit always spawns in front of the target and it takes 3-4 seconds for the spirit to move behind the target. While the spirit is moving it won't do any attacks

But I have tested leaving your spirit on 100% of the time and using FoF on CD, even it means getting fewer RSKs. It's about a 5% DPS increase over the normal rotation without SEF, and the SEF FoF rotation scales better than the normal rotation due to having much higher WeaponDPS scaling.

[Totaltotemic]

You can't summon your spirit and then cast FoF immediately. The spirit always spawns in front of the target and it takes 3-4 seconds for the spirit to move behind the target. While the spirit is moving it won't do any attacks

Yeah I noticed that too, probably not worth it once you have AoC but if you're only doing it every 25 seconds it's probably worth it to drop it between FoF CDs.

[Deleted]

Ok I will share what I have noticed so far. As it comes for the FoF with the one clone at your own target is kinda difficult to execute. You always need to wait 1-2 more second for the clone to spawn and settle in order for him to use FoF with you. If you use FoF too early after spawning the clone it won't use it and you will just waste dps. BUT what is more interesting I useded other way to increase my dps on PTR. I have reforged myself like this: 6900 haste > crit > mastery. I had around 44% mastery. I used multistrike trinket and CDR trinket. CDR trinket makes your FoF to be reduced to 18 second and energizing brew to be reduced to 48 seconds. I have used FoF every time it was out of cd prioritizing it above the RSK. My dps table looked like this: FoF>Bk>RSk what is very interesing as in patch 5.3 I haven't used FoF at all, only in situations that my energy was very low. By this I have managed to increase my dps for 40-50k dps and haven't struggle with lack of energy at all. I also had flask and food buff on me. So for me the best way to top my dps in 5.4 is to make my haste around 6900 then crit then mastery as lower as possible reforing it into crit or haste. Use your FoF every time it's availavle and use your Energizing Brew almost every CD which is reduced to 48 seconds. It is very interestig as I frist though that CDR trinket for WW monk is crap, what apparently isn't true.

[Miuh]

Ok I will share what I have noticed so far. As it comes for the FoF with the one clone at your own target is kinda difficult to execute. You always need to wait 1-2 more second for the clone to spawn and settle in order for him to use FoF with you. If you use FoF too early after spawning the clone it won't use it and you will just waste dps. BUT what is more interesting I useded other way to increase my dps on PTR. I have reforged myself like this: 6900 haste > crit > mastery. I had around 44% mastery. I used multistrike trinket and CDR trinket. CDR trinket makes your FoF to be reduced to 18 second and energizing brew to be reduced to 48 seconds. I have used FoF every time it was out of cd prioritizing it above the RSK. My dps table looked like this: FoF>Bk>RSk what is very interesing as in patch 5.3 I haven't used FoF at all, only in situations that my energy was very low. By this I have managed to increase my dps for 40-50k dps and haven't struggle with lack of energy at all. I also had flask and food buff on me. So for me the best way to top my dps in 5.4 is to make my haste around 6900 then crit then mastery as lower as possible reforing it into crit or haste. Use your FoF every time it's availavle and use your Energizing Brew almost every CD which is reduced to 48 seconds. It is very interestig as I frist though that CDR trinket for WW monk is crap, what apparently isn't true.

Saying you do this or do that, doesn't really help us. Say what the situations were, what was the gear you were using, what dummies, what debuffs were on the dummy ? Was there any cleave involved ? What buffs did you have ? 40-50k dps compared to what, Live ?

[Saltycracker]

This may be a DPS gain, but it costs a GCD.

I'll look into this, but it may be a short term gain and a long term loss. Good find though.

[Totaltotemic]

This may be a DPS gain, but it costs a GCD.

I'll look into this, but it may be a short term gain and a long term loss. Good find though.

Costing a GCD doesn't matter unless you're haste capped.

[Saltycracker]

Costing a GCD doesn't matter unless you're haste capped.

GCD capping happens very early, and resource capping happens much later in the haste curve. We are GCD capped at about 4000 haste. I'll make a more clear post as I get time, but I'm spending a lot of it dummy testing for 5.4 atm.

Still though, I would be interested in seeing the results logs on a dummy, one with and one without SEF-FOF.

[Geodew]

Sounds tedious. If I played WW seriously, I don't think I'd enjoy this.