Originally Posted by
razorfire
you simply ignoring or denying every point that isn't saying your favorite character isn't the perfect decision you're pushing for him to be is not the same as not having given valid points. and most of the counterpoints haven't been "blown out of the water" they've been met with what equates to "well..hey look at this other thing that I think makes him look good!" vol'jin may have had thoughts of leaving, but unlike lor'themar he never acted on them. if not for the dalaran purge he WOULD have left to join the alliance without even having looked to the rest of the horde for aid. on the "blame the devs" they've had plenty of time to show him and when they finally did THAT'S when all of the love for him spontaneously came into being. you don't think he was "scared to act" go look at his leader short story, even going to northrend is a decision that's made for him by sylvanas.
lor'themar has had a dedicated council helping him manage things around silvermoon consisting mostly of the decision making and support of romath and halduron, he has otherwise, from what's shown, been simply following whatever sylvanas or garrosh say. and I never said sylvanas would ONLY use it because of garrosh forcing her into fights, I'm saying she wouldn't use it AS MUCH. gilneas was a fight she was forced into by garrosh, that is the largest use of plague we actually see in game aside from the unexplained circumstances of southshore, and she uses it there because garrosh managed to screw up the initial assault so badly she had to in order to keep an advantage. also if you're going to make a comment based on my punctuation and way of typing in an attempt to discredit me, let me help you out. ?!@$!@%$@!%!@^!^$#^.
so...you're saying no to vol'jin because your speculation on what ifs...and you're saying that unless someone is the bestest of friends with the alliance there can't be peace... right.. you then try to discredit baine who has about as much good leadership of his people as lor'themar has shown for the same reason you say I can't shoot down lor'themar. read lord of the clans then look into the amount of time between when thrall started leading all the orcs of the new horde and when he actually gained the support and friendship of the trolls and tauren..unlike lor'themar he didn't get from competent leader to leader of an entire major faction instantly like people want. and your dismissal of saurfang is yet again just saying "he's not bestest friends with the alliance, somehow that means he can't get peace with the alliance without having been a member of the alliance"
saying a race was or was not part of the alliance shouldn't impact their ability to not declare war like idiotic children, that's simply personal decisions and goals. and yes I agree with you no leader should be chosen or denied based on race, but that's part of my annoyance with this sudden "lor'themar for warchief" push. people seem to be pushing lor'themar more simply because he is a member of the most "alliance like" of the horde races (and no I don't say that meaning he should be in the alliance, they have good reasons not to be in the alliance), claims that the bloodelves should come to the forefront are almost all backed up by saying the horde needs to advance or "we have enough orcs vs humans".
yes I get that you think I'm arguing the same points and that you think none of them have any negative effect towards lor'themar, I understand that. but. JUST BECAUSE YOU LIKE A CHARACTER DOES NOT MEAN YOU SHOULD IGNORE THE NEGATIVE PARTS OF THEIR STORY! IGNORING THAT LOR'THEMAR ACTIVELY PLANNED TO ABANDON THE HORDE, THAT HE, MUCH LIKE GARROSH, WOULD BE PUSHED TO LEADERSHIP DIRECTLY AFTER A LONGSTANDING LACK OF CONFIDENCE, AND THAT HE DIDN'T EVEN WANT HIS OWN OFFICE BUT IS SUPPOSEDLY MEANT TO ACCEPT BEING WARCHIEF IS IDIOTIC.
but don't worry, I suspect somehow you will continue to ignore all points against him as ineffective but swear up and down your own arguments in his favor make him the best candidate ever.
A good leader does what is best for his people. As of that time, Lor'themar's people were the Sin'dorei. He took the oath yes, the same oath all the other leaders did - to protect and guard each other. But where was Vol'jin when the blood elves were being thrown to the wolves by Garrosh? Some family, eh?
Furthermore, there is a small part in Tides of War where Garrosh summons Lor'themar to Orgrimmar:
Garrosh later summons Lor'themar for a private audience, thanking him for his loyalty. When prompted to discuss the nature of said loyalty, Lor'themar makes it clear that he is loyal to the Horde, though Garrosh reminds him that he is the Horde. Lor'themar corrects him, stating that he is merely its leader. As Garrosh observes the sin'dorei retinue leave Orgrimmar, he uneasily concludes that Theron in particular is worth watching.
This makes me think that Garrosh tried to get Lor'themar to leave, putting the stealing of the Divine Bell and the Purge of Dalaran in a whole new light. Perhaps getting Lor'themar to the breaking point was Garrosh's plan all along, to get the Blood Elves out of the Horde and get the others to turn on them.
As for the lack of wanting an office, the best leaders are those who do not actively pursue power. THe best leaders are those who are pushed into the role - and they generally come to terms, and accept and excel at the role they are given. It happened with Thrall, it happened with Vol'jin - hell, it happened with George Washington (he didn't want to lead the military, much less become President of the nation).
I don't care that Lor'themar is the most "Alliance-like" of the Horde - because the Blood Elves aren't. It doesn't matter anyways, because Lor'themar is, by and large, one of the most qualified people we have for the job. I'm saying to to Vol'jin because he, much like Cairne, actively went against Thrall's wishes (the same Thrall who Vol'jin says what the Horde should be). And yes, yes Thrall did. He was pushed into the role of Warchief when Doomhammer died his untimely death.
On to the Vol'jin/Cairne stuff: Before Thrall left, he asked Cairne, Etrigg, and Vol'jin to help Garrosh out, to guide him into the role of Warchief and stand by him. THis was to keep the peace, reign Garrosh in, and keep the Horde in Thrall's ideals. We saw how well that went over. Cairne immediately told Thrall that is was a bad idea and challenged (and died, due to Magatha's interference) Garrosh for the Warchief's throne. Vol'jin immediately upped-and-outed from Orgrimmar. SO Vol'jin, the same Vol'jin who claims to be upholding Thrall's ideals of a better Horde, went against Thrall in the first place. Had he and Cairne not, we might very well not be here arguing this right now.
As for Lor'themar's credentials: He spent a good few years as Ranger-General (after Sylvanas died; he was her second-in-command, if memory serves), leading the Farstriders and defense of the kingdom from the remnants of the Scourge. After that, he was thrown into the regency. He, as per Kael'thas' request, was guided and helped, shaped into the leader he is today. He was built upon, in the same way Garrosh ought to have been by Cairne and Vol'jin. And what do we see? He is a really good person and leader, which is why I advocate him for becoming Warchief (and King of Quel'thalas, but that's a different matter entirely).
So yes, the beginnings of Lor'themar's and Garrosh's insertion to leadership roles are much the same. The difference is Lor'themar's aides helped him as they were asked, while those who were asked by THrall to help Garrosh told Thrall and Garrosh to fuck off. That's why Lor'themar should be Warchief and Vol'jin shouldn't be.
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Originally Posted by
tinyninja
There is no way in hell I or anyone else should go through the effort of reading through that wall of text if you can't be bothered to put in some effort yourself and use some damn capitilization. I know you don't care because you think it's not important but it is, because your posts are literally eyesores. Not that you're talking about anything new that we haven't already refuted about four pages back.
Eh, I took the effort to. Hope he doesn't just go "LOL LOR'THEMAR SUCKS" on me, since I'm just joining the argument.
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As well, read this. It's from his journal:
I cannot remember the last time I told anyone such a bald-faced lie, even since I was forced into politics. But I did lie to Aethas, and he knows it, and I know it, and anyone who heard me say it knows it. My will means very little, in fact. I can pretend my power is real, but in the end, it is all an act, and none of it is honest. I can wash my hands of it, play martyr, be victimized, and accomplish nothing, or I can fight and victimize others in my turn and thus become the essence of all I have battled. If I have ever rationalized my choices using any other logic, I was certainly lying to myself. Hawkspear was right: I deal with the devil indeed, but the Sunwell may never have been restored had we not sunk to those levels. He and Aurora can sleep soundly, knowing they have never compromised their ethics, but if they deny that they prosper in the wake of those who have, then they delude themselves as much as I.
Here I find myself so close to believing that the ends justify the means. But the ruins of the Magisters' Terrace will haunt me forever, reminding me of the fate I tempt with that thought. This is the line I walk, finally knowing that the actions I take in necessity are nonetheless indefensible. Those truths can never be reconciled, but sometimes I can hold them both side by side and almost understand. I might call this revelation profound if I were ignorant enough not to realize that I am only learning what Kael'thas, and Anasterian before him, had also learned in their turns. All we can do is walk the road we are given with such dignity as we can muster, each to our own glory or demise, and pray that there yet remains something of our own hearts when all is said and done. By the Sunwell, I hope that there will remain something of mine.
I loved the ending of that so much I made it my Senior Quote for my graduating yearbook. You can't tell me that he wouldn't make a fantastic Warchief. If you'd like the context, it's from his short story on the WoW website.
EDIT: Do note that that entry is from just before the release of Wrath, lorewise. Since then, he's obviously thrown off Sylvanas' bindings, as the Sunwell and the recently-acquired Blood Golems (as well as the possible, hopefully shown if they ever re-do the starting zones, reversed corruption of the Ghostlands), combined with the Lich King's death (meaning less Scourge), means that they no longer need to rely on Sylvanas' Forsaken to defend their borders.
And no, I don't foresee an Alliance assault somehow surviving a Sin'dorei controlled Dark Animus for long.
EDIT: This too:
Lor'themar has become a ruler balancing a fierce love for his country together with the weight of his peoples' burdens, though his responsibilities were not always so heavy. Years before his regency, Lor'themar was a patriotic and passionate ranger, with a talent for both battle and strategy. Lor'themar took pride in his role as a Farstrider and a warden of the Sunwell, which the great traitor Dar'Khan Drathir exploited for his own gain. Lor'themar holds guilt for his inability to see through Dar'Khan's betrayal, and further remorse for the exile he imposed on the quel'dorei who opposed Rommath's teachings; Lor'themar reasoned that he could not lead a nation divided. Theron was hit hard by the betrayal of Prince Kael'thas, with the future of the country falling into his lap alone.
As the regent lord of Quel'Thalas, Lor'themar has become highly versed in the world of politics, able to quickly deduce hidden meanings and often see through the masks of those within (and out of) his sphere of influence. Though authoritative (and not afraid to exert that authority), Lor'themar values the opinions of his advisors, in matters of state and beyond. The life of a politician is not something Lor'themar ever craved, however; ever the ranger at heart, Lor'themar enjoys a good fight.
Lor'themar places the safety of Quel'Thalas and its people high above all else. Lor'themar's loyalty is clear in this regard: he will not suffer allies who would harm his people, and will not shy from negotiating with his enemies or plotting rebellion to secure his people a future.
Though the burdens of leadership have weighed heavily on Lor'themar's shoulders in the wake of Prince Kael'thas' betrayal, under his leadership Quel'Thalas has survived many of its darkest days. He has resolved to see his people overcome their struggles, and lead them into a prosperous future.