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  1. #341
    Scarab Lord Grubjuice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    How about this guy?
    i he is suggesting what the alliance should do if the alliance were real, not what the developers should have the alliance do.
    if azeroth were real, the alliance should have have killed every single orc that entered through the portal, (period). if azeroth were real the alliance should have gone into lordaeron and destroyed every last undead corpse (period).

    and i say this as a horde player

  2. #342
    Quote Originally Posted by KrazyK923 View Post
    He's blatantly talking about Wrathion's logic in why he says what he does at the end of the 5.4 storyline.

    Like I said, Strawman.
    And he's agreeing that is what should happen...
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    I'm determined to someday make Med'an awesome. (MickyNeilson)

    ´So.. sorry to bring this up but..you know that .."thing" (Med'an).. is that "thing" cannon still?
    ...as much have some have wished otherwise, yes. (Loreology)

  3. #343
    Immortal KrazyK923's Avatar
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    Because it makes sense in the CONTEXT of Wrathion's logic?

    Shockingly, the difference matters between an opinion as if they were actually a member of the Alliance versus someone who plays the game and plays Alliance.

    That'd be like saying "What would Garrosh, if he's real, say about the Alliance?" versus somebody who plays the game as Horde.

    The latter opinion in both cases is what actually matters. So unless you're talking about Sky Admiral Rogers herself as if she was real, your argument is a strawman.
    Last edited by KrazyK923; 2013-08-26 at 08:01 PM.
    Men, you've trained for this. You're among the elite. You are Skyfire men! This is the ship that took down Deathwing. You think some raggedy little Horde outpost stands a chance against the pride of the Alliance fleet? NO! Those green dirtbags down there plagued your homes in Southshore, laid siege to your children in Redridge, and massacred every man, woman and child in Theramore. It. Is. PAYBACK TIME!
    Sky Admiral Rogers for High Queen. Remember Theramore!

  4. #344
    Quote Originally Posted by KrazyK923 View Post
    Because it makes sense in the CONTEXT of Wrathion's logic?

    Shockingly, the difference matters between an opinion as if they were actually a member of the Alliance versus someone who plays the game and plays Alliance.

    That'd be like saying "What would Garrosh, if he's real, say about the Alliance?" versus somebody who plays the game as Horde.

    The latter opinion in both cases is what actually matters. So unless you're talking about Sky Admiral Rogers herself as if she was real, your argument is a strawman.
    How about this post:
    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    Grey? The Forsaken planned betrayal from the very start.



    Given past history? The Alliances goal should be nothing less than total and complete annihilation of the Forsaken.

    EJL
    Or this post:
    Quote Originally Posted by tripleh View Post
    This ending only proves how much the devs and metzen love the horde over the alliance. We go in and take out garrosh , then get nothing from it. If anything the alliance should wait until the horde is destroyed even more then take over after most of them are killed off. But then again we are dealing with an idiot named Metzen who likes to spoon with orcs and the rest of the horde. Ogrimmar raid is just like the undercity , its a lame ass joke. Alliance got nothing from that.
    Or this post:
    Quote Originally Posted by ChosenSpitfire View Post
    Treaty of Versailles style would be awesome... but never gonna happen, lawl. But i made one, too.

    The Treaty of Ironforge

    • Article 231 (the so-called "War Guilt Clause") stated The Nation of Durotar accepted responsibility for "all the loss and damage to which the Allied and Associated Governments and their nationals have been subjected as a consequence of the war imposed upon them by the aggression of Durotar and her allies." Similar wording was used in the treaties signed by the other Horde nations, having them accept responsibility for the damage they and their allies caused.
    • Horde armed forces will number no more than 10,000 troops, and conscription will be abolished.
    • Enlisted men will be retained for at least 12 years; officers to be retained for at least 25 years.
    • Horde naval forces will be limited to 1,5000 men, six battleships (no more than 1,000 tons displacement each) and no submarines.
    • The import and export of weapons is prohibited (except in a case of defense against a Third Power (Burning Legion, Old Gods,...), then the Alliance has to send them reinforcements, weapons and resources.)
    • Plague gas, armed aircraft and, siege weapons are prohibited.
    • Blockades on ships are prohibited.
    • Horde armed forces are prohibited from entering or fortifying any part of Horde territory within 20 kilometres south and east of Ashenvale, 30 kilometres south in the northern Barrens; Silverpine Forest is a completly demilitarized zone, in Stonetalon Mountains and Desolace guarding service is allowed (no more than 300 guards in total).
    • Eastern Ashenvale and western Azshara is given back to the Night elves. Arathi Basin, Hillsbrad, Alterac and the Western Plaguelands with out the Argent Crusade controlled territory are given to the re-established Kingdom of Arathor, which is a vasall to the Kingdom of Stormwind. The part south of Shadowfang Keep is now Gilnean territory. Southern Durotar is given to the Darkspear trolls (mich means everything south of Razor Hill is now troll land), the destroyed castle of Kul'Tiras is now fortified by the alliance and services now as an Alliance outpost in Durotar.
    • The Houjin Pandaren and the Blood Elves have the chance to become citizens of the Alliance and leaving the Horde.
    • The Horde has to pay 30 billion gold as reparation.
    Or this post:
    Quote Originally Posted by Serenais View Post
    Alright... This is a tricky issue. I expect the Alliance to just "turn away and forget", as we've been portrayed almost traditionally now.
    As to what should be the Alliance's demands for peace treaty, well... Mind you, these are built on the expectations of a REAL LIFE peace treaty demands, not ones raised for the sake of ingame ballance.
    1) Immediate withdrawal of Horde forces from Gilneas, Hillsbrad area south of Tarren Mill, Arathi Highlands, The Hinterlands, The Plaguelands from Andorhal eastward (that excludes the Ghostlands, if anyone would be wondering), Swamp of Sorrows, Blasted Lands, Badlands, Twilight Highlands, Vashj'ir and Tol Barad archipelago in Eastern Kingdoms; Ashenvale, Felwood, Darkshore, Southern Barrens (with the exclusion of The Great Gate), Feralas, Azshara, Stonetalon Mountains, Dustwallow Marsh and Desolace in Kalimdor; Borean Tundra, Grizzly Hills, Wintergrasp, Dragonblight and Howling Fjord in Northrend; Jade Forest, Krassarang Wilds, Vale of Eternal Blossoms and Kun-Lai Summit in Pandaria. Civilian populations in specified areas will be placed under Alliance civilian authority (unless specified otherwise below).
    2) The Horde will renounce all its territory claims outside of its core territories, defined as: Durotar, Northern Barrens, Mulgore and Echo Isles in Kalimdor; Tirisfal Glades, Silverpine Forest north of Ambermill and Pyrewood Village, Hillsbrad area north of and including Tarren Mill, Plaguelands northwest of Andorhal, Eversong Woods, Ghostlands and Isle of Quel'Danas in Eastern Kingdoms.
    3) Creation of temporary occupation zones:
    Northern Barrens and Mulgore north of Thunder Bluff, placed under authority of the Night Elven Sentinels;
    Durotar north of Razor Hill and south of Orgrimmar, placed under authority of the Kingdom of Stormwind;
    Tirisfal Glade outside of Undercity, placed under joint authority of the Kingdom of Stormwind and Kingdom of Ironforge;
    Silverpine Forest and Hillsbrad Foothills, placed under authority of the Kingdom of Ironforge;
    The Alliance will not include these areas into its immediate territorial claims nor shall it take outside the suzerainty of the speciffic Horde nations after signing of the peace treaty.
    3) Dismantling of the Kor'kron forces.
    4) Dismantling naval forces of the Horde, with the exception of the Navy of Quel'thalas, which will be reduced to seven ships of combat capability.
    5) Discontinuing any weapon programs of belonging to any nation of the Horde and destruction of all facilities and materials used in such programs.
    6) Granting independence to the Taunka nation in Northrend.
    7) After the end of the occupation of the aformentioned areas by the Alliance, paying reparations to the restored nation of Theramore and other nations of the Alliance to the height of (sum) gold annually for the time span of 75 years.
    8) Repatriation of all survivng prisoners of war held by the Horde to their respective nations of the Alliance, providing information about the fate and burial location of the deceased prisoners of war and allowing the Alliance investigation of such in case found necessary by the Alliance, and thus doing without any obstructions to the investigation process.
    9) Extradiction of any surviving high ranking members of the Kor'kron forces and civilians associated with to the authority of the Alliance.
    10) Extradiction of all "Sunreavers" for investigation of their involvement with the Hellscream regime to the authority of the Alliance.

    Mind you, that would NOT be the text of the eventual peace treaty, that would be just what the Alliance would want in order for one to take place. The peace treaty would most likely include the Alliance recognising sovereignity of the Horde over "defined core areas", allow repatriation of Horde civilians into Horde settlements that would afterwards fall under Alliance authority, probably recognising them some special rights, and perhaps also granting no sentence of death for the Sunreavers found guilty in following court processeses, etc.
    Or this post:
    Quote Originally Posted by Krixooks View Post
    Alliance List of Demands‏

    Here is a proposed list of demands to follow through upon the fall of Garrosh. Coming from an actual member of the Alliance.

    Part 1: War reparations: Orgrimmar

    - The remaining Orc population will be split in two: Those complicit in the atrocities conducted against the Alliance and other Horde natives will remain in Orgrimmar.
    - Those not involved will receive free transport to Nagrand.
    - Orgrimmar will see a process of deconstruction and repurposing under direction of the Alliance High Command.
    - The caves below Orgrimmar will be collapsed.
    - All war machines and weaponry will be destroyed, orc labourers will assist in construction of camps and settlements for the residents.
    - Orgrimmar will remain under Alliance administration. (A new appropriate name will be given to the canyon, not one glorifying orc warmongers. We are open to suggestions)

    Part 2: War reparations: Azshara

    - The Bilgewater goblins, as the evil masterminds behind the war machine of the Horde, will be clapped in irons and marched to Azshara.
    - In Azshara, the deconstruction of the goblin dystopian theme parks will be undertook by these goblins.
    - A new program will then be undertaken in Azshara in the advancement of science and progress and reeducation.
    - "The Azshara Project" will be overseen by the Gnomes.

    Part 3: Restoration of indigenous lands to natives of Azeroth

    Natives of Azeroth will be held under an agreement signed by the High King with a guarantee of peace provided they remain within their respective territories.

    - The Darkspear rebellion will lay down it's arms and return to Razor Hill and the Echo Isles.
    - All Tauren natives will be directed to Mulgore.
    - Any remaining Sin'dorei will be free to return to Quel'thalas. (Talks to be undertaken regarding Sin'dorei-Alliance goals are to be held between parties at a future date.)
    - Any remaining undead will be piled up and burnt. (This goes without saying).

    Thankyou for your time.
    Or this post:
    Quote Originally Posted by Vaelorian View Post
    How many monkeys do we have on mmochampion? Aquamonkey and now Ultramonkey pretty much asking the same kind of question.

    However I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. And I apologize should my mistrust be misplaced.

    The orcs are under the leadership of Garrosh, once more not that peaceful are they? If they minded their own business and not try to steal lumber from the Elves or war on Pandaria - or bomb Theramor - I don't think anyone would mind them staying there. But since they are not and want to take what they need by force, hell yes they should get the feck off of Azeroth.

    And as my brother Khal has said, they should move base to a more bountyful country. Like Decolace and Feralas. I am sure that small party of Elves wouldn't mind giving that place up to be on friendly terms with the horde right?
    - - - Updated - - -

    Or any of the other posts saying the Alliance should have sat back and let the Rebellion and Garrosh wipe each other out before going in and conquering Orgrimmar. I remind you that the Rebellion getting wiped out would mean the end of the PC Horde.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    I'm determined to someday make Med'an awesome. (MickyNeilson)

    ´So.. sorry to bring this up but..you know that .."thing" (Med'an).. is that "thing" cannon still?
    ...as much have some have wished otherwise, yes. (Loreology)

  5. #345
    Scarab Lord Grubjuice's Avatar
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    it's hard to differentiate satire from insanity; as encapsulated by Poe's Law

  6. #346
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    And he's agreeing that is what should happen...
    The person you have quoted merely stated what the current in-game logic would imply to happen: with no currently implemented explaination for Varian's act of letting fractured and worn-out Horde off the hook, a couple of Alliance players pointed out that -in the wake of unrelenting warfare- the logical conclusion would be to try to occupy ORG upon its liberation. NOONE HAS STATED THAT THIS IS WHAT NEEDS TO HAPPEN. People used such descriptions of events to point out poor build-up and storytelling Alliance side.

    The worst I have seen from Alliance fanboys in that regard were wishes for ORG to bear marks of damage for a moment.

    You are merely using selective context to fuel your irrational opposition to people who had the misfortune of embracing this faction.

  7. #347
    Immortal KrazyK923's Avatar
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    Yet again Aquamonkey, you fail to understand what I pointed out in my last post.

    Strawman.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Antoine de Coolette View Post
    You are merely using selective context to fuel your irrational opposition to people who had the misfortune of embracing this faction.
    This is also true.
    Men, you've trained for this. You're among the elite. You are Skyfire men! This is the ship that took down Deathwing. You think some raggedy little Horde outpost stands a chance against the pride of the Alliance fleet? NO! Those green dirtbags down there plagued your homes in Southshore, laid siege to your children in Redridge, and massacred every man, woman and child in Theramore. It. Is. PAYBACK TIME!
    Sky Admiral Rogers for High Queen. Remember Theramore!

  8. #348
    Quote Originally Posted by KrazyK923 View Post
    Yet again Aquamonkey, you fail to understand what I pointed out in my last post.

    Strawman.

    - - - Updated - - -



    This is also true.
    Yes, I'm clearly strawmanning by saying there are people who post that the Horde should be destroyed... You asked for proof and I gave you a bunch of posts where people want the Horde to be destroyed.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    I'm determined to someday make Med'an awesome. (MickyNeilson)

    ´So.. sorry to bring this up but..you know that .."thing" (Med'an).. is that "thing" cannon still?
    ...as much have some have wished otherwise, yes. (Loreology)

  9. #349
    Immortal KrazyK923's Avatar
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    5/6 of your "proof" posts fail the "in-game versus player" distinction. I'll give you your point on the last one. However, pretending that one person is any significant amount of Alliance players is also another fallacy on your end.

    So, yes. You are.
    Men, you've trained for this. You're among the elite. You are Skyfire men! This is the ship that took down Deathwing. You think some raggedy little Horde outpost stands a chance against the pride of the Alliance fleet? NO! Those green dirtbags down there plagued your homes in Southshore, laid siege to your children in Redridge, and massacred every man, woman and child in Theramore. It. Is. PAYBACK TIME!
    Sky Admiral Rogers for High Queen. Remember Theramore!

  10. #350
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antoine de Coolette View Post
    the logical conclusion would be to try to occupy ORG upon its liberation.
    Replace one tryannical rule for another, that would be lovely
    Do we get another 'Liberator of Ogrimmar' title again too?
    Last edited by Dreknar20; 2013-08-26 at 08:48 PM.
    We have faced trials and danger, threats to our world and our way of life. And yet, we persevere. We are the Horde. We will not let anything break our spirits!"

  11. #351
    Scarab Lord Grubjuice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreknar20 View Post
    Replace one tryannical rule for another, that would be lovely
    Do we get another 'Liberator of Ogrimmar' title again too?
    well it could be like the allied occupation of west germany and west Berlin. not necessarily a dictatorship

    although there is no soviet union in this scenario unless Orgrimmar is split between half held by the Holde and half held by they alliance.

  12. #352
    Quote Originally Posted by KrazyK923 View Post
    5/6 of your "proof" posts fail the "in-game versus player" distinction. I'll give you your point on the last one. However, pretending that one person is any significant amount of Alliance players is also another fallacy on your end.

    So, yes. You are.
    How about this guy:
    Quote Originally Posted by Kazomir View Post
    Firsly, Alliance lost Theramore beforehand, and in the previous expansion lost every meaningfull battle.

    Second, you are confusing the Hordes. The Alliance invade the Evil Horde's capital and kill the Evil Horde warchief, while helping the Goody Hordes get their city back and put their Goody Warchief on the throne. (or whatever a Warchief sits on)


    And the funniest thing here is the Alliance can just watch as the Goody Horde gets destroyed by the Evil Horde with casualties on both sides, and then attack the remains of the Evil horde. Makes much more sense that way.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kazomir View Post
    The legion and the scourge and all other stuff actually posed a threat to everyone, the Evil horde will just turn on the rebels first and THEN it might attack the Alliance. In wich case the alliance, with good timing, can strike just after one of the hordes has obliterated the other and is trying to stabilize. In the meantime, while they wait, they will ammass forces for swift and decisive strike. After that both hordes are done and alliance can live in peace.


    Ofcouse that wont happen, cause lol game. But It makes the story seem bad.
    Goody Horde being destroyed means that there is no long a faction for half the players.

    You can try to dismiss all those post (and those were just examples I found doing a quick search), but they clearly show that some people want such an Alliance-favored outcome that it would break the game.
    Last edited by Aquamonkey; 2013-08-26 at 09:06 PM.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    I'm determined to someday make Med'an awesome. (MickyNeilson)

    ´So.. sorry to bring this up but..you know that .."thing" (Med'an).. is that "thing" cannon still?
    ...as much have some have wished otherwise, yes. (Loreology)

  13. #353
    Immortal KrazyK923's Avatar
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    Wow, you still don't get it.

    The first one again fails the distinction.

    If you want to amend your statement to "A few crazy people want the Horde faction gone" then that's fine, but it seems nothing more than a fringe that even other Alliance players dismiss as stupid.

    But I appreciate the attempt at what you're doing. Still doesn't mean its correct.
    Last edited by KrazyK923; 2013-08-26 at 09:15 PM.
    Men, you've trained for this. You're among the elite. You are Skyfire men! This is the ship that took down Deathwing. You think some raggedy little Horde outpost stands a chance against the pride of the Alliance fleet? NO! Those green dirtbags down there plagued your homes in Southshore, laid siege to your children in Redridge, and massacred every man, woman and child in Theramore. It. Is. PAYBACK TIME!
    Sky Admiral Rogers for High Queen. Remember Theramore!

  14. #354
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    You can try to dismiss all those post (and those were just examples I found doing a quick search), but they clearly show that some people want such an Alliance-favored outcome that it would break the game.
    even more simple suggestions such as changing low level zones has some pretty gaping wholes - as in they were just changed so there is zero gameplay purpose for doing so again
    We have faced trials and danger, threats to our world and our way of life. And yet, we persevere. We are the Horde. We will not let anything break our spirits!"

  15. #355
    It sounds like Blizzard wants to weaken the Orcs because they want a non-Orc Warchief to allow some sort of peace treaty between the Alliance and the Horde, even if it's only temporary. But maybe I'm reading too much into it.

  16. #356
    Quote Originally Posted by KrazyK923 View Post
    Wow, you still don't get it.

    The first one again fails the distinction.

    If you want to amend your statement to "A few crazy people want the Horde faction gone" then that's fine, but it seems nothing more than a fringe that even other Alliance players dismiss as stupid.

    But I appreciate the attempt at what you're doing. Still doesn't mean its correct.
    Because it fails some random "in-game vs player" criteria you invented?

    These are the things they want to happen: annihilating certain Horde factions, Bad Horde destroying Good Horde, imposing ridiculous restrictions, having the Horde be under Alliance administration, deporting the orcs to Outland, etc. Please tell me how any of that happening wouldn't break the game.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    I'm determined to someday make Med'an awesome. (MickyNeilson)

    ´So.. sorry to bring this up but..you know that .."thing" (Med'an).. is that "thing" cannon still?
    ...as much have some have wished otherwise, yes. (Loreology)

  17. #357
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    Quote Originally Posted by El_Diabl0 View Post
    It sounds like Blizzard wants to weaken the Orcs because they want a non-Orc Warchief to allow some sort of peace treaty between the Alliance and the Horde, even if it's only temporary. But maybe I'm reading too much into it.
    I don't get what there doing with the orcs right now. I mean before Garroah came into the picture and all this mess, the orcs were even back then the main body of the horde, being that one that started it all, gathering other races into it, having heroes like saurfang, rexxar and Nazgrel, and for all intents and purpose, with his honor in tact and overcoming being slaves of demons and humans, they were doing alright.
    Then, garroah came into it, he touched every good aspect of the redeemed orcish society, and now so much of it is being killed off.. where the fuck does it leave the orcs?

  18. #358
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    Because it fails some random "in-game vs player" criteria you invented?

    These are the things they want to happen: annihilating certain Horde factions, Bad Horde destroying Good Horde, imposing ridiculous restrictions, having the Horde be under Alliance administration, deporting the orcs to Outland, etc. Please tell me how any of that happening wouldn't break the game.
    Once more, the person you have quoted [Kazomir] merely argued that the storytelling itself -with no reasons given for 'leave Horde alone' decision- suggests that it [as in: destruction of opposing faction during a WAR] would have been a logical thing to come out of it - as Blizzard gave no in-game explaination as to why it would have been foolish. No farseers indicating that purging Horde will cause the downfall of Azeroth at the hands of Sargeras... no commanders telling us that the war cannot be won... no written indication that Alliance is on its last legs...
    AT NO POINT KAZOMIR HAS SUGGESTED THAT THIS IS WHAT HE WANTS BLIZZARD TO IMPLEMENT.

    Normally, I would have paid no further attention to your post rather than acknowledgement. But your history of conduct on this board makes it clear that you see Alliance fanbase as some sort of ruinous element whose every word needs to be disproven as a rule in itself. Your 'work' with datamined material does little to improve this notion.

    - - -
    A question to wider audience: As I am a new visitor on this board, can someone please enlighten me why people who associate themselves with Alliance are looked down at as if they were... some kind of a 'subhuman'? Is there... any undoing that... 'earned' this sort of treatment?
    Last edited by Antoine de Coolette; 2013-08-26 at 09:48 PM.

  19. #359
    Immortal KrazyK923's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    Because it fails some random "in-game vs player" criteria you invented?

    These are the things they want to happen: annihilating certain Horde factions, Bad Horde destroying Good Horde, imposing ridiculous restrictions, having the Horde be under Alliance administration, deporting the orcs to Outland, etc. Please tell me how any of that happening wouldn't break the game.
    Random? I'm sorry you fail to understand the idea that there's a very clear difference between presenting ideas within the context of the current story and players from outside the story offering suggestions. The vast majority that you've brought up fall under the former, when the latter is what you said the Alliance were seriously offering.

    Like I said, blatant Strawman. And at this point, and knowing how and in what context you post shit on this forum, I'm done with you. Peace.
    Men, you've trained for this. You're among the elite. You are Skyfire men! This is the ship that took down Deathwing. You think some raggedy little Horde outpost stands a chance against the pride of the Alliance fleet? NO! Those green dirtbags down there plagued your homes in Southshore, laid siege to your children in Redridge, and massacred every man, woman and child in Theramore. It. Is. PAYBACK TIME!
    Sky Admiral Rogers for High Queen. Remember Theramore!

  20. #360
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreknar20 View Post
    But they once were, the Horde is coming out of this with a lot more holes in its strength than the Alliance
    This. Spot on.


    I'm just doubtful there will be any indication other than Horde and Alliance being dead equal in strength and influence by next expansion.
    "There is good and evil in this world; we must find the black and white in the gray."

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