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  1. #541
    Scarab Lord Grubjuice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arcanist View Post
    No, we're allowed to siege the Horde capital because WE'RE DOING YOU A FAVOR AND THEN IMMEDIATELY LEAVING EMPTY HANDED.

    This is the Horde's story and if Alliance players had any sense they would refuse to run the final raid.
    yes and thank you for you help, Silly alliance tools.

  2. #542
    Immortal KrazyK923's Avatar
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    It is still bad for the horde we get the light at the end of the tunnel but we had to go through a very dark place (trolls being executed elves almost going back to the alliance and the horde breaking in two and sieging our own city with our enemies is pretty dire in terms of situation). As a horde player I was quite angry that this would have to happen. I am looking forward to ending Garrosh though no doubt and will enjoy the raid.
    Oh darn you get the actual story. I feel so bad for you. Robo-cat. Robo-fucking-cat.

    I understood the interview more than you did by the look of it. HE mentions dalaran as a fist pump moment but also states he cant spoil 5.4 I would reserve judgement until all is revealed. Quote me on it, if its shit and you're right then i'll put my hands up and say "blizzard fucked you over sorry dude" till then I think you need to wait and see if this finally delivers. For you though and for arcanist I feel only some sort of alliance only out right victory where the hordes in ruins will appeal to you as you've not given me any other reason to think otherwise.
    You're far more amazing than you pretend my opinion is. You repeat this strawman that we want Orgrimmar destroyed despite me blatantly saying you're wrong. Unless Varian executes the Horde leaders, there will most likely not be anything shocking in that cinematic. We know Varian leaves and the Horde have their next Warchief chosen. Where's the fist-pump in there? What is actually going to happen that would be shocking yet still believable that Blizz would do? Occupation of Orgrimmar? Very unlikely.

    And like I said, pulling out a win in the very, very end after the terrible storylines in Cata/5.3/5.4 is so shallow. It very nearly doesn't even matter.
    Last edited by KrazyK923; 2013-08-28 at 03:19 PM.
    Men, you've trained for this. You're among the elite. You are Skyfire men! This is the ship that took down Deathwing. You think some raggedy little Horde outpost stands a chance against the pride of the Alliance fleet? NO! Those green dirtbags down there plagued your homes in Southshore, laid siege to your children in Redridge, and massacred every man, woman and child in Theramore. It. Is. PAYBACK TIME!
    Sky Admiral Rogers for High Queen. Remember Theramore!

  3. #543
    Quote Originally Posted by KrazyK923 View Post
    Oh darn you get the actual story. I feel so bad for you. Robo-cat. Robo-fucking-cat.



    You're far more amazing than you pretend my opinion is. You repeat this strawman that we want Orgrimmar destroyed despite me blatantly saying you're wrong. Unless Varian executes the Horde leaders, there will most likely not be anything shocking in that cinematic. We know Varian leaves and the Horde have their next Warchief chosen. Where's the fist-pump in there? You clearly did not understand the interview I suppose.
    Right lets get something straight here as you are selectively quoting me and not answering any questions *edited * sorry read that wrong didnt call me a strawman merely said I was using one.

    1) I asked you what would you like to see story wise that would make you feel its an alliance victory as you've not told us. The logical conclusion after I explained that sieging the horde capital and killing the warchiefs pretty good victory for you, and the one you reject would normally mean you want to take things further no? Please explain what you would like to see and we can discuss it.

    2) The fist pump moment might well be dalaran but the cinematic has not been revealed and im hoping it might show alliance troops in org cheering the victory of Garrosh and his "true" horde, maybe something with Varian saying that we came here to topple a tyrant not to become one our selves or something etc. I think that will be the fist pump moment they originally wanted. He said a few times in the interview that he did not want to spoil 5.4 so we may get more from it. Don't discount it until we know more.

    Please do comment on these points so I can figure out what you would like as other than that we will go around in circles.

    Also I agree robo cat was shit I did state it was not that great for you in 5.3 But 5.2 and 5.1 were very good imo at least for human/high elves.

  4. #544
    its not about who wins what but how its implemented in game.. theres no events or quests that show some meaningful fist pump moment for Alliance..Unlike Horde which gets quests&scenarios that go in depth about story and alliance is just there with robo-cat .. I would rather have my capital city under siege with meaningful story aka dialogues between chars and some lore quests or scenarios.. Then this BS but i can understand they are biased, what pisses me off is that they dont know whats the problem..Its same shit like intro for twilight highlands, you see baddass garrosh going crazy on dragons and for the alliance what?

    Anyway every good storyline in wow came from wc3, everything that they came up in wow which doesnt have root in wc3 is total crap..

  5. #545
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    Here's one possible thing they can change while keeping the overall story and outcome the same: They can give the Alliance a cut scene or some quests where they purposely delay helping the rebels, allowing the Kok'ron and rebels to slaughter each other a bit before coming in to help. Seems logical after all. The Horde is still an enemy, and remembering what they did to the Alliance it's not out of line to suggest that the Horde can wait and stew a little bit until help arrives.

    Outcome remains the same, but having the story unfold in this way makes more sense and is a bit more realistic.

  6. #546
    Quote Originally Posted by Arcanist View Post
    Here's one possible thing they can change while keeping the overall story and outcome the same: They can give the Alliance a cut scene or some quests where they purposely delay helping the rebels, allowing the Kok'ron and rebels to slaughter each other a bit before coming in to help. Seems logical after all. The Horde is still an enemy, and remembering what they did to the Alliance it's not out of line to suggest that the Horde can wait and stew a little bit until help arrives.

    Outcome remains the same, but having the story unfold in this way makes more sense and is a bit more realistic.
    yes thats what i meant give us some flavor ffs..

  7. #547
    As a Horde player I think I would have liked to seen some rumbling in Ashenvale throughout the patch cycle that concluded with the Alliance taking Warsong Lumber Camp in 5.3 and establishing a temporary base in preparation to siege Orgrimmar's back gate. Tyrande or Varian or whoever lead the Alliance through the back gate, Vol'jin leads through the front.

    Would it be that much of a problem for the Horde and Alliance to have different raid layouts up until they enter RFC?

    I also think the excuse for not including Dalaran is pretty shitty.
    Last edited by Silverware; 2013-08-28 at 03:38 PM.

  8. #548
    Immortal KrazyK923's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by khalltusk View Post
    1) I asked you what would you like to see story wise that would make you feel its an alliance victory as you've not told us. The logical conclusion after I explained that sieging the horde capital and killing the warchiefs pretty good victory for you, and the one you reject would normally mean you want to take things further no? Please explain what you would like to see and we can discuss it.
    Actually, no, its not logical to assume me not wanting Orgrimmar destroyed means I want something...further? How is that logical? Its pretty simple, I want the Alliance to actually be proactive. I've seen other people making this argument too, "Tell me exactly what you want." All I want is the Alliance to actually matter and not be drug along in its story. I want to see us doing stuff and the consequences of those actions and not just be told "Oh, its ok though, your gameplay may suck, but you win in the end, so its all good, right?" If you want a specific example, I gave one about what 5.3 should have been for us on the last page:

    Quote Originally Posted by KrazyK923
    You know what would have made actual sense for the Alliance in 5.3? If instead of Robo-Catting our way across Orgrimmar's gates, we instead perhaps took out a strategic target. Or disrupted Garrosh's operations and pinned the blame on the Rebellion. You know, turning the two against each other and seeing it in the game instead of just being TOLD that is what we were doing. Then, aftewards, with Vol'jin none the wiser, approach him and basically tell him 'You attack and we'll have your back.' Since that is what makes actual sense as a tactical decision. Not only does Amber as just an SI:7 operative have no authority to approve what you do in 5.3 in meeting with Vol'jin, but the logic behind it is nonsensical.
    Also I agree robo cat was shit I did state it was not that great for you in 5.3 But 5.2 and 5.1 were very good imo at least for human/high elves.
    Which is why I don't generally mention 5.1 or 5.2 outside of the context of Dalaran somehow being an Alliance win. They were fine. Both factions had their own shit they were doing.

    As for what Dave Kosak said, maybe him saying, again, that we need to just "wait and see" for the Alliance to get something nice works for you. But I've given up any hope of them actually doing so since they've said several times now to "wait and see" where ultimately nothing happens. Maybe you can't understand it if you're solely Horde, but eventually you stop believing the claim of "No, srsly gaiz, just wait, it gets better!" after they've said it a few times with no result.
    Last edited by KrazyK923; 2013-08-28 at 03:47 PM.
    Men, you've trained for this. You're among the elite. You are Skyfire men! This is the ship that took down Deathwing. You think some raggedy little Horde outpost stands a chance against the pride of the Alliance fleet? NO! Those green dirtbags down there plagued your homes in Southshore, laid siege to your children in Redridge, and massacred every man, woman and child in Theramore. It. Is. PAYBACK TIME!
    Sky Admiral Rogers for High Queen. Remember Theramore!

  9. #549
    Speaking of SoO, isn't there this gnome leader guy whatshiname right before Spoils of Pandaria? Only been there once on PTR and haven't paid that much attention, but there is some Alliance presence in later part of the raid. Shame it barely matters, but whatever.

    As for the "fist pumping moment" - I actually did enjoy 5.1 quests and could almost agree it being a nice Alliance victory. We get entire city, Horde is chased away, it's all good. 'Course, Varian had to scream at Jaina for ruining his secret negotations, just to make sure things weren't actually too good and one sided. Can't have the Alliance winning too much. Still, I could almost agree with Kosak here, it was pretty decent. Now expand a bit more on this in later patches and mission successful.

    Then 5.2 comes and it turns out that Sunreavers are able to match all of Kirin Tor might without much issues. So a splinter faction is just as good as the rest - and that's after Jaina already "dealt" with some of them. Naturally, Dalaran itself is nowhere in sight - neither in 5.2 or 5.4. Yeah, way to ruin this "fist pumping" victory.

    But wait, it gets better. Appearently, Alliance cannot match the Horde alone and needs to work together with the rebels - otherwise, they'll both lose. I guess this explains why we were constantly getting our asses kicked in Cataclysm, even though it makes no freaking sense. A part of Horde is more than a match for the entire Alliance? Even though Jaina nearly destroyed Orgrimarr on her own?

    Oh wait, that's because Garrosh is now Super Shaian. How about we use of those nifty magical artifacts we gained in our fist pumping moment to blow him up? No? Oh well, let's get her killed by random orc soldier during Galakras boss battle, that's a much better solution.

    And robocat was just icing on the cake, really. When I first read about it I thought it couldn't possibly be serious... and yet it was. Just... wow.

    I'm still waiting for final cutscene of 5.4, but more often than not I'm thinking "what the hell happened to Alliance? What is wrong with these people? When did they turn into ineffective, boring pussies that can't do anything right? Why do I have to pay more $$ for books where they supposedly act competent?"

    'Cause I'm pretty sure that's what will happen. They'll have someone write the Alliance victory in yet another book, while none of that will actually happen in the game. I'd love to be proven wrong, but...
    Last edited by KaPe; 2013-08-28 at 04:22 PM.

  10. #550
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    Quote Originally Posted by khalltusk View Post
    The 5.3 storyline aside from the razorhill/senjin village events had nothing to them (they were good though admittedly) But you get to fucking SIEGE our capital and kill OUR warchief (even if hes a tool) in lore.
    He's not you Warchief otherwise the Horde wouldn't be their killing him as well. It's not your capital at the time or else you wouldn't be sieging it too.

    Quote Originally Posted by khalltusk View Post
    Your faction leaders are in a strong position after the siege and your leader ALLOWS us to choose our own leader. That is an alliance victory. You turn up give org a nose bleed and get rid of a tyrant.
    The Alliance leaving and allowing the Horde to choose another Warchief will either be a great moment or an awful one. If we just leave, then that's crap. If we instead are there when you select the Warchief and actually play a role in his selection then that would be cool as we would be actively accomplishing a peace accord which is our goal.
    I wouldn't view it as a positive or negative until we actually see it.

    I'm hoping it's the latter, I really do. But I have a hard time taking Kosak's word for it after he considered the paper collecting robo cat "espionage".

    Yes we have been being dragged along for the rise since 5.3. 5.3's content was a bajillion times more meaningful and better created than the Alliance one because ultimately it focused the Darkspear rebelling. The same is true for the SoO as towards the end it tails into us helping Thrall and being greeted by Saurfang as "more of Vol'jins rebels" which again indicates the raid being tailored towards the Horde's story.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by khalltusk View Post
    But 5.2 and 5.1 were very good imo at least for human/high elves.
    Both of those were great and so was all of content on 5.0 with the Jade Forest.
    Last edited by Scummer; 2013-08-28 at 03:47 PM.

  11. #551
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ianus View Post
    yes thats what i meant give us some flavor ffs..
    Makes sense, right? But apparently the Alliance isn't allowed to have even the little things.

    Looking at Cata and this current expansion, it's obvious how little time and effort has been put into the Alliance story. It's like everything is an afterthought when it comes to this faction.

    Take a look at robocat. I'm willing to bet they came up with that in like 10 minutes after they finished fleshing out the Horde rebellion and the related quests and we're like "oh shit! We forgot to write anything for the Alliance!". I mean, just compare the two. It should be clear how little thought was put into robocat, and at the end they originally had Vol'Jinn talk down to Alliance players. It's ridiculous.

  12. #552
    Quote Originally Posted by khalltusk View Post
    I said that aside the battles at the village and razorhill there was nothing for us in 5.3.
    "If you don't count everythign we got, we got nothing" works for just about everything.

    Thing is...we DID get the battles at Sen'jin and Razor hill and the Alliance got a robot cat.
    We got voiced cutscenes and the Alliane got a letter
    We got continuation of a plot line that had been progressing since Cata and the Alliance got the first mention of a fleet
    We got to see our leaders and interact with them, and kick ***. The Alliance got to interact with our leaders who then gave them orders and they ended up strengthening an enemy faction so they could fill an enemy goal

    I don't care how you cut it - the Horde experience in 5.3 was many, many times better and more involved than what the Alliance got. Yet again, the Alliance came over as an afterthought. Nothing against the robocat personally - but why could the Alliance have taken the info and turned Garrosh against the village? Why couldn't the Alliance player be the one responsible for starting the rebellion then and there? Have them actually BREAK the Horde instead of just puttering around with a toy cat

    I did admit the battles were awesome and yet you rant on assuming I have not done them it just shows you dont pay attention. The alliance version of 5.3 was weak imo you are right there but 5.2 and 5.1 showed some very good alliance lore (mostly human and high elf)
    Alliance lore? What Alliance lore? The Dalaran sequence mainly progressed the BElf storyline...or did you not notice that? It ended with Dalaran as Alliance again, but it showed that Blizzard thinks a worthwhile opponent for the Alliance is a bunch of shopkeepers. Once again, the Horde got a far superior and more epic storyline.

    A heist from an enemy capital and jailbreak to free dozens of innocent BElfs.

    The Alliance got told off by the High King. Honestly, its as if Blizzard think Alliance players will be satisfied with any old dross. Theres certainly no sign of any effort in the story. The Alliance certainly didn't need to be told they did bad. The Blood Elves certainly didn't need the extra high of arranging a jailbreak. The Alliance didn't need to fight shopkeepers. All unnecessary elements that simply added a nasty sting in the tail to the story for Alliance players....why didn't Blizzard simply play up the Sunreavers are Horde loyalists angle and have them stage an insurrection.

    The alliance say in 5.3 why should we help you voljin bluffs saying we can wait till the alliance fails and then mop up the survivors you as a player call his bluff and hes practically begging you to help.
    Yeah...an exchange that wrecks BOTH sides of the debate. That entire sequence needed to be cut. Instead, Blizzard made it worse. They even made Vol'jin look bad and after his build up, that should have took some doing. Blizzard did it in two paragraphs.

    I know we siege it as a horde character and thats what im dreading we have to attack our own capital. How is that anything other than a bad thing for the horde? we're killing our own you should be celebrating.
    They aren't our own...just as Garrosh isn't our Warchief anymore, his followers aren't part of the Horde my character is.. Just as Rend Blackhand was never my Warchief. The Horde is attacking an enemy town populated by an enemy led by an enemy Chieftain. And its doing so because Garrosh said he kill their people.

    Now, maybe all this will actually end well. Maybe the cinematic will show everything in a new light. But, based on prior experience, does anyone seriously expect it?

    EJL
    Last edited by Talen; 2013-08-28 at 04:15 PM.

  13. #553
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    Quote Originally Posted by khalltusk View Post
    On the bright side you lost theramore and gained Dalaran.
    Some of us would actually like the opposite outcome. Theramore has always been my favourite Alliance stronghold. And the way they handled the destruction of it ingame was horrendous. I didn't care much about Dalaran, and I do not care at all now that it's all but confirmed we're actually not gonna see the effects of taking it in the game.
    Quote Originally Posted by Erin View Post
    I only saw a few minutes of it but it looked slicker than a lubed up olympic swimmer fleeing from a shark.

  14. #554
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    Gained Dalaran, eh? Show me where I can see it in game.

  15. #555
    Quote Originally Posted by khalltusk View Post
    I said that aside the battles at the village and razorhill there was nothing for us in 5.3.
    All right, but apart from the sanitation, the medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, the fresh-water system, and public health, what have the Romans ever done for us?

  16. #556
    Quote Originally Posted by KrazyK923 View Post
    Actually, no, its not logical to assume me not wanting Orgrimmar destroyed means I want something...further? How is that logical? Its pretty simple, I want the Alliance to actually be proactive. I've seen other people making this argument too, "Tell me exactly what you want." All I want is the Alliance to actually matter and not be drug along in its story. I want to see us doing stuff and the consequences of those actions and not just be told "Oh, its ok though, your gameplay may suck, but you win in the end, so its all good, right?" If you want a specific example, I gave one about what 5.3 should have been for us on the last page:





    Which is why I don't generally mention 5.1 or 5.2 outside of the context of Dalaran somehow being an Alliance win. They were fine. Both factions had their own shit they were doing.

    As for what Dave Kosak said, maybe him saying, again, that we need to just "wait and see" for the Alliance to get something nice works for you. But I've given up any hope of them actually doing so since they've said several times now to "wait and see" where ultimately nothing happens. Maybe you can't understand it if you're solely Horde, but eventually you stop believing the claim of "No, srsly gaiz, just wait, it gets better!" after they've said it a few times with no result.
    It is logical if you have nothing else to go on as people (a lot of them not you, youve made it clear what you want now) wanted more than just laying siege and slaying Garry.

    As for your argument well what do you want you really have no answered it. The war was pretty much instigated by Garrosh, you were on the defensive for a while and you sent a fleet to pandaria to ensure Garrosh didnt fuck things up there. You then after 5.3s events decide the times come to siege Org. Thats being proactive you decide to take the fight to him. Yes you've been a bit of a punch bag for a while but you do come out swinging in 5.4. The horde rebellion would not have been able to topple Garry with out the alliance, we needed you more than you needed us tbh.

    Least we can agree 5.1 and 5.2 were pretty good for alliance, and i can understand you not wanting to trust blizzard if you feel they've not lived up to your expectations me saying just trust them might not help .

    Also for some of the others here.

    To say its not our city and not our own "horde" we're killing thats the kind of things people say for years in conflict to demonise or justify killing the other side. "they're not us so it doesnt count". Sadly it does count they were horde just as much as anyone they just decided to continue to follow the warchief while the rest of us rebelled. As a horde player its a sad to see it coming to this, its a civil war you "know" the people you kill. Nazgrim for example I like that character but he honours his oath to Garry over anything else. From a horde perspective this is a dark day, we'd have to pick our selves up and dust our selves off after this while im certain the alliance will be riding high.

    IF the alliance cinematic is just lol hes dead lets leave the horde too it i'd be PISSED. I would rather have it with seeing garry on the floor dead and Varian + troops + racial leaders celebrating their victory or something similar with them telling the horde that they can choose their warchief and that they've earned the right to try and correct their mistakes or something.

    Talen it does not matter which way you cut it, the Dalaran story line was awesome from BOTH factions pov. I enjoyed it the belves got to reveal that they were considering going to the alliance the alliance high elves got some screen time and your king ended up being right pissed off with it all. Yes the belves got a LOT of screen time but they've barely been in it since TBC. Most people know who jaina or Varian are but when it comes to the bench flipper who prior to this KNEW about him? But equally Jaina got a lot of screen time and the high elves came into it with them putting the boot into the sunreavers. Jaina goes bat shit crazy and imprisons a load of people, the horde had to try and do a rescue attempt which was OK. As an alliance character it was odd having to go around murdering people just because they refused to leave. It had a lot more depth to it than you try and make it seem (it was more of a moral issue than lol shop keeper)

  17. #557
    Quote Originally Posted by dokhidamo View Post
    Didn't Horde players march in there and so badly wreck the place the leadership had to become Worgen just to escape death?
    Quote Originally Posted by KrazyK923 View Post
    But we didn't nuke it into the ground so its still an alliance fortress brah!
    Yea and when they did, the Horde fucking ran out of there scared as fast as they could. Shortly after, Worgen started streaming out of Fenris and attacking the Forsaken. Horde never go back and wipe them out.

    But no, it's totally the same as how the Alliance went into Horde bases like Shatterspear War Camp, Shatterspear Village, and Stonard where they completely wiped everything out...

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by KrazyK923 View Post
    Dalaran sucks as a "fist-pump" moment because we never see it in the game. The Kirin Tor's "power" is identically matched with the Sunreaver Onslaught in 5.2. Whatever benefit we get for having the Kirin Tor and Dalaran on our side is not shown in the game whatsoever. Blizzard just keeps saying its significant.
    Yes, just completely ignore that it's not just the Sunreavers in 5.2, but the Silvermoon Magisters as well you are comparing to Kirin Tor alone. Now, the Alliance just got a whole new kingdom and a new force of magic users roughly equal to what the Horde already had in Silvermoon.

    And even if all the Sunreavers were released from Dalaran, the Alliance still gets a larger group. The Sunreavers are equal to the Silver Covenant so they cancel out, but the Alliance also gets every Kirin Tor member who wasn't Sunreaver or Silver Covenant.
    Last edited by Aquamonkey; 2013-08-28 at 06:19 PM.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    I'm determined to someday make Med'an awesome. (MickyNeilson)

    ´So.. sorry to bring this up but..you know that .."thing" (Med'an).. is that "thing" cannon still?
    ...as much have some have wished otherwise, yes. (Loreology)

  18. #558
    Wow Storytelling is shit just cause half of stuff cant be in game cause of gameplay reasons and they wont compansate that with quests and scenarios atleast on alliance side something like purging echo isles and razor hill.. which is clear horde bias.. in game storytelling

  19. #559
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    They wiped Stonard out? It was still there last time I looked...

  20. #560
    Quote Originally Posted by Arcanist View Post
    Gained Dalaran, eh? Show me where I can see it in game.
    Jaina and the Kirin Tor forces joining the Alliance...

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Arcanist View Post
    They wiped Stonard out? It was still there last time I looked...
    So the world isn't as dynamic as you like for small bits of leveling zone, at least you got a quest where you go in and destroy it and Shatterspear and any of the many other non-Horde bases. There wasn't anything like that for Fenris Keep the last time I looked....
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    I'm determined to someday make Med'an awesome. (MickyNeilson)

    ´So.. sorry to bring this up but..you know that .."thing" (Med'an).. is that "thing" cannon still?
    ...as much have some have wished otherwise, yes. (Loreology)

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