Oh darn you get the actual story. I feel so bad for you. Robo-cat. Robo-fucking-cat.It is still bad for the horde we get the light at the end of the tunnel but we had to go through a very dark place (trolls being executed elves almost going back to the alliance and the horde breaking in two and sieging our own city with our enemies is pretty dire in terms of situation). As a horde player I was quite angry that this would have to happen. I am looking forward to ending Garrosh though no doubt and will enjoy the raid.
You're far more amazing than you pretend my opinion is. You repeat this strawman that we want Orgrimmar destroyed despite me blatantly saying you're wrong. Unless Varian executes the Horde leaders, there will most likely not be anything shocking in that cinematic. We know Varian leaves and the Horde have their next Warchief chosen. Where's the fist-pump in there? What is actually going to happen that would be shocking yet still believable that Blizz would do? Occupation of Orgrimmar? Very unlikely.I understood the interview more than you did by the look of it. HE mentions dalaran as a fist pump moment but also states he cant spoil 5.4 I would reserve judgement until all is revealed. Quote me on it, if its shit and you're right then i'll put my hands up and say "blizzard fucked you over sorry dude" till then I think you need to wait and see if this finally delivers. For you though and for arcanist I feel only some sort of alliance only out right victory where the hordes in ruins will appeal to you as you've not given me any other reason to think otherwise.
And like I said, pulling out a win in the very, very end after the terrible storylines in Cata/5.3/5.4 is so shallow. It very nearly doesn't even matter.
1) I asked you what would you like to see story wise that would make you feel its an alliance victory as you've not told us. The logical conclusion after I explained that sieging the horde capital and killing the warchiefs pretty good victory for you, and the one you reject would normally mean you want to take things further no? Please explain what you would like to see and we can discuss it.
2) The fist pump moment might well be dalaran but the cinematic has not been revealed and im hoping it might show alliance troops in org cheering the victory of Garrosh and his "true" horde, maybe something with Varian saying that we came here to topple a tyrant not to become one our selves or something etc. I think that will be the fist pump moment they originally wanted. He said a few times in the interview that he did not want to spoil 5.4 so we may get more from it. Don't discount it until we know more.
Please do comment on these points so I can figure out what you would like as other than that we will go around in circles.
Also I agree robo cat was shit I did state it was not that great for you in 5.3 But 5.2 and 5.1 were very good imo at least for human/high elves.
its not about who wins what but how its implemented in game.. theres no events or quests that show some meaningful fist pump moment for Alliance..Unlike Horde which gets quests&scenarios that go in depth about story and alliance is just there with robo-cat .. I would rather have my capital city under siege with meaningful story aka dialogues between chars and some lore quests or scenarios.. Then this BS but i can understand they are biased, what pisses me off is that they dont know whats the problem..Its same shit like intro for twilight highlands, you see baddass garrosh going crazy on dragons and for the alliance what?
Anyway every good storyline in wow came from wc3, everything that they came up in wow which doesnt have root in wc3 is total crap..
Here's one possible thing they can change while keeping the overall story and outcome the same: They can give the Alliance a cut scene or some quests where they purposely delay helping the rebels, allowing the Kok'ron and rebels to slaughter each other a bit before coming in to help. Seems logical after all. The Horde is still an enemy, and remembering what they did to the Alliance it's not out of line to suggest that the Horde can wait and stew a little bit until help arrives.
Outcome remains the same, but having the story unfold in this way makes more sense and is a bit more realistic.
As a Horde player I think I would have liked to seen some rumbling in Ashenvale throughout the patch cycle that concluded with the Alliance taking Warsong Lumber Camp in 5.3 and establishing a temporary base in preparation to siege Orgrimmar's back gate. Tyrande or Varian or whoever lead the Alliance through the back gate, Vol'jin leads through the front.
Would it be that much of a problem for the Horde and Alliance to have different raid layouts up until they enter RFC?
I also think the excuse for not including Dalaran is pretty shitty.
Last edited by Silverware; 2013-08-28 at 03:38 PM.
Originally Posted by KrazyK923Which is why I don't generally mention 5.1 or 5.2 outside of the context of Dalaran somehow being an Alliance win. They were fine. Both factions had their own shit they were doing.Also I agree robo cat was shit I did state it was not that great for you in 5.3 But 5.2 and 5.1 were very good imo at least for human/high elves.
As for what Dave Kosak said, maybe him saying, again, that we need to just "wait and see" for the Alliance to get something nice works for you. But I've given up any hope of them actually doing so since they've said several times now to "wait and see" where ultimately nothing happens. Maybe you can't understand it if you're solely Horde, but eventually you stop believing the claim of "No, srsly gaiz, just wait, it gets better!" after they've said it a few times with no result.
Speaking of SoO, isn't there this gnome leader guy whatshiname right before Spoils of Pandaria? Only been there once on PTR and haven't paid that much attention, but there is some Alliance presence in later part of the raid. Shame it barely matters, but whatever.
As for the "fist pumping moment" - I actually did enjoy 5.1 quests and could almost agree it being a nice Alliance victory. We get entire city, Horde is chased away, it's all good. 'Course, Varian had to scream at Jaina for ruining his secret negotations, just to make sure things weren't actually too good and one sided. Can't have the Alliance winning too much. Still, I could almost agree with Kosak here, it was pretty decent. Now expand a bit more on this in later patches and mission successful.
Then 5.2 comes and it turns out that Sunreavers are able to match all of Kirin Tor might without much issues. So a splinter faction is just as good as the rest - and that's after Jaina already "dealt" with some of them. Naturally, Dalaran itself is nowhere in sight - neither in 5.2 or 5.4. Yeah, way to ruin this "fist pumping" victory.
But wait, it gets better. Appearently, Alliance cannot match the Horde alone and needs to work together with the rebels - otherwise, they'll both lose. I guess this explains why we were constantly getting our asses kicked in Cataclysm, even though it makes no freaking sense. A part of Horde is more than a match for the entire Alliance? Even though Jaina nearly destroyed Orgrimarr on her own?
Oh wait, that's because Garrosh is now Super Shaian. How about we use of those nifty magical artifacts we gained in our fist pumping moment to blow him up? No? Oh well, let's get her killed by random orc soldier during Galakras boss battle, that's a much better solution.
And robocat was just icing on the cake, really. When I first read about it I thought it couldn't possibly be serious... and yet it was. Just... wow.
I'm still waiting for final cutscene of 5.4, but more often than not I'm thinking "what the hell happened to Alliance? What is wrong with these people? When did they turn into ineffective, boring pussies that can't do anything right? Why do I have to pay more $$ for books where they supposedly act competent?"
'Cause I'm pretty sure that's what will happen. They'll have someone write the Alliance victory in yet another book, while none of that will actually happen in the game. I'd love to be proven wrong, but...
Last edited by KaPe; 2013-08-28 at 04:22 PM.
I wouldn't view it as a positive or negative until we actually see it.
I'm hoping it's the latter, I really do. But I have a hard time taking Kosak's word for it after he considered the paper collecting robo cat "espionage".
Yes we have been being dragged along for the rise since 5.3. 5.3's content was a bajillion times more meaningful and better created than the Alliance one because ultimately it focused the Darkspear rebelling. The same is true for the SoO as towards the end it tails into us helping Thrall and being greeted by Saurfang as "more of Vol'jins rebels" which again indicates the raid being tailored towards the Horde's story.
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Last edited by Scummer; 2013-08-28 at 03:47 PM.
Looking at Cata and this current expansion, it's obvious how little time and effort has been put into the Alliance story. It's like everything is an afterthought when it comes to this faction.
Take a look at robocat. I'm willing to bet they came up with that in like 10 minutes after they finished fleshing out the Horde rebellion and the related quests and we're like "oh shit! We forgot to write anything for the Alliance!". I mean, just compare the two. It should be clear how little thought was put into robocat, and at the end they originally had Vol'Jinn talk down to Alliance players. It's ridiculous.
Thing is...we DID get the battles at Sen'jin and Razor hill and the Alliance got a robot cat.
We got voiced cutscenes and the Alliane got a letter
We got continuation of a plot line that had been progressing since Cata and the Alliance got the first mention of a fleet
We got to see our leaders and interact with them, and kick ***. The Alliance got to interact with our leaders who then gave them orders and they ended up strengthening an enemy faction so they could fill an enemy goal
I don't care how you cut it - the Horde experience in 5.3 was many, many times better and more involved than what the Alliance got. Yet again, the Alliance came over as an afterthought. Nothing against the robocat personally - but why could the Alliance have taken the info and turned Garrosh against the village? Why couldn't the Alliance player be the one responsible for starting the rebellion then and there? Have them actually BREAK the Horde instead of just puttering around with a toy cat
Alliance lore? What Alliance lore? The Dalaran sequence mainly progressed the BElf storyline...or did you not notice that? It ended with Dalaran as Alliance again, but it showed that Blizzard thinks a worthwhile opponent for the Alliance is a bunch of shopkeepers. Once again, the Horde got a far superior and more epic storyline.I did admit the battles were awesome and yet you rant on assuming I have not done them it just shows you dont pay attention. The alliance version of 5.3 was weak imo you are right there but 5.2 and 5.1 showed some very good alliance lore (mostly human and high elf)
A heist from an enemy capital and jailbreak to free dozens of innocent BElfs.
The Alliance got told off by the High King. Honestly, its as if Blizzard think Alliance players will be satisfied with any old dross. Theres certainly no sign of any effort in the story. The Alliance certainly didn't need to be told they did bad. The Blood Elves certainly didn't need the extra high of arranging a jailbreak. The Alliance didn't need to fight shopkeepers. All unnecessary elements that simply added a nasty sting in the tail to the story for Alliance players....why didn't Blizzard simply play up the Sunreavers are Horde loyalists angle and have them stage an insurrection.
Yeah...an exchange that wrecks BOTH sides of the debate. That entire sequence needed to be cut. Instead, Blizzard made it worse. They even made Vol'jin look bad and after his build up, that should have took some doing. Blizzard did it in two paragraphs.The alliance say in 5.3 why should we help you voljin bluffs saying we can wait till the alliance fails and then mop up the survivors you as a player call his bluff and hes practically begging you to help.
They aren't our own...just as Garrosh isn't our Warchief anymore, his followers aren't part of the Horde my character is.. Just as Rend Blackhand was never my Warchief. The Horde is attacking an enemy town populated by an enemy led by an enemy Chieftain. And its doing so because Garrosh said he kill their people.I know we siege it as a horde character and thats what im dreading we have to attack our own capital. How is that anything other than a bad thing for the horde? we're killing our own you should be celebrating.
Now, maybe all this will actually end well. Maybe the cinematic will show everything in a new light. But, based on prior experience, does anyone seriously expect it?
Last edited by Talen; 2013-08-28 at 04:15 PM.
Moderator of Heroes of the Storm, come say hi!
Gained Dalaran, eh? Show me where I can see it in game.
As for your argument well what do you want you really have no answered it. The war was pretty much instigated by Garrosh, you were on the defensive for a while and you sent a fleet to pandaria to ensure Garrosh didnt fuck things up there. You then after 5.3s events decide the times come to siege Org. Thats being proactive you decide to take the fight to him. Yes you've been a bit of a punch bag for a while but you do come out swinging in 5.4. The horde rebellion would not have been able to topple Garry with out the alliance, we needed you more than you needed us tbh.
Least we can agree 5.1 and 5.2 were pretty good for alliance, and i can understand you not wanting to trust blizzard if you feel they've not lived up to your expectations me saying just trust them might not help .
Also for some of the others here.
To say its not our city and not our own "horde" we're killing thats the kind of things people say for years in conflict to demonise or justify killing the other side. "they're not us so it doesnt count". Sadly it does count they were horde just as much as anyone they just decided to continue to follow the warchief while the rest of us rebelled. As a horde player its a sad to see it coming to this, its a civil war you "know" the people you kill. Nazgrim for example I like that character but he honours his oath to Garry over anything else. From a horde perspective this is a dark day, we'd have to pick our selves up and dust our selves off after this while im certain the alliance will be riding high.
IF the alliance cinematic is just lol hes dead lets leave the horde too it i'd be PISSED. I would rather have it with seeing garry on the floor dead and Varian + troops + racial leaders celebrating their victory or something similar with them telling the horde that they can choose their warchief and that they've earned the right to try and correct their mistakes or something.
Talen it does not matter which way you cut it, the Dalaran story line was awesome from BOTH factions pov. I enjoyed it the belves got to reveal that they were considering going to the alliance the alliance high elves got some screen time and your king ended up being right pissed off with it all. Yes the belves got a LOT of screen time but they've barely been in it since TBC. Most people know who jaina or Varian are but when it comes to the bench flipper who prior to this KNEW about him? But equally Jaina got a lot of screen time and the high elves came into it with them putting the boot into the sunreavers. Jaina goes bat shit crazy and imprisons a load of people, the horde had to try and do a rescue attempt which was OK. As an alliance character it was odd having to go around murdering people just because they refused to leave. It had a lot more depth to it than you try and make it seem (it was more of a moral issue than lol shop keeper)
But no, it's totally the same as how the Alliance went into Horde bases like Shatterspear War Camp, Shatterspear Village, and Stonard where they completely wiped everything out...
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And even if all the Sunreavers were released from Dalaran, the Alliance still gets a larger group. The Sunreavers are equal to the Silver Covenant so they cancel out, but the Alliance also gets every Kirin Tor member who wasn't Sunreaver or Silver Covenant.
Last edited by Aquamonkey; 2013-08-28 at 06:19 PM.
Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
Wow Storytelling is shit just cause half of stuff cant be in game cause of gameplay reasons and they wont compansate that with quests and scenarios atleast on alliance side something like purging echo isles and razor hill.. which is clear horde bias.. in game storytelling
They wiped Stonard out? It was still there last time I looked...
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Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment