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  1. #561
    Bloodsail Admiral
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    If I can't see it in game, it doesn't exist.

    Why should I read some third rate novel for my lore when the other side gets to see their lore in game?

  2. #562
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    Jaina and the Kirin Tor forces joining the Alliance...
    Aquamonkey, I've seen that noted repeatedly and I think you've pointed it out before this, but let me get your thoughts on this:

    Why did Blizzard make Jaina & The Kirin Tor joining the Alliance a tarnished event that is essentially a failure and thus a loss for the Alliance?

    "I was trying to negotiate with the Sin'dorei. I was opening discussions to bring them into the Alliance! By attacking their people, you've forced their hand-"

    What's the purpose of putting in a plot line that would never, and could never, be developed? It serves no purpose other than to give the Alliance victory of Dalaran a black eye.

    If not for the Purge of Dalaran, the Alliance "grand victory" then the Alliance could conceivably have gained:
    Dalaran
    Kirin Tor
    Sunreavers
    Blood Elves
    Silvermoon

    Instead we got 2 out of 5 and that's awesome?

    The devil's in the details and these tiny little additions are what makes me feel like Blizzard has screwed up the Alliance story. When Kosak generalizes the Alliance victories, they sound great, and the ideas ARE great, but the execution of them comes off making the Alliance look like bumbling idiots more often than heroes.
    "There is good and evil in this world; we must find the black and white in the gray."

  3. #563
    Quote Originally Posted by Arcanist View Post
    If I can't see it in game, it doesn't exist.

    Why should I read some third rate novel for my lore when the other side gets to see their lore in game?
    I guess you missed 5.2 and didn't see anything about 5.4... Jaina and the Kirin Tor are shown in game to be part of the Alliance...
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    I'm determined to someday make Med'an awesome. (MickyNeilson)
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    ´So.. sorry to bring this up but..you know that .."thing" (Med'an).. is that "thing" cannon still?
    ...as much have some have wished otherwise, yes. (Loreology)

  4. #564
    Quote Originally Posted by Arcanist View Post
    If I can't see it in game, it doesn't exist.

    Why should I read some third rate novel for my lore when the other side gets to see their lore in game?
    Same can be said of a LOT of lore in game. If its there then its your problem. I do agree that sometimes its a bit annoying having to go via a novel to get any extra lore but it makes them money I guess.

  5. #565
    Quote Originally Posted by Faroth View Post
    Aquamonkey, I've seen that noted repeatedly and I think you've pointed it out before this, but let me get your thoughts on this:

    Why did Blizzard make Jaina & The Kirin Tor joining the Alliance a tarnished event that is essentially a failure and thus a loss for the Alliance?

    "I was trying to negotiate with the Sin'dorei. I was opening discussions to bring them into the Alliance! By attacking their people, you've forced their hand-"

    What's the purpose of putting in a plot line that would never, and could never, be developed? It serves no purpose other than to give the Alliance victory of Dalaran a black eye.

    If not for the Purge of Dalaran, the Alliance "grand victory" then the Alliance could conceivably have gained:
    Dalaran
    Kirin Tor
    Sunreavers
    Blood Elves
    Silvermoon

    Instead we got 2 out of 5 and that's awesome?

    The devil's in the details and these tiny little additions are what makes me feel like Blizzard has screwed up the Alliance story. When Kosak generalizes the Alliance victories, they sound great, and the ideas ARE great, but the execution of them comes off making the Alliance look like bumbling idiots more often than heroes.
    So a victory less than the victory that could have been is not a victory? It was part of the story as a whole. LT talked about revisiting old "alliances" during the Horde side of the quest. They needed a hook to explain why LT would stand against Garrosh and not just abandon the rest of the Horde. Especially with Aethas screaming that they should leave.
    Last edited by Aquamonkey; 2013-08-28 at 06:34 PM.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    I'm determined to someday make Med'an awesome. (MickyNeilson)
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    ´So.. sorry to bring this up but..you know that .."thing" (Med'an).. is that "thing" cannon still?
    ...as much have some have wished otherwise, yes. (Loreology)

  6. #566
    Dreadlord Lostwood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    So the world isn't as dynamic as you like for small bits of leveling zone, at least you got a quest where you go in and destroy it and Shatterspear and any of the many other non-Horde bases. There wasn't anything like that for Fenris Keep the last time I looked....
    It could be, if they didn't cut corners. Andorhal is an excellent example.

  7. #567
    Quote Originally Posted by Faroth View Post
    Aquamonkey, I've seen that noted repeatedly and I think you've pointed it out before this, but let me get your thoughts on this:

    Why did Blizzard make Jaina & The Kirin Tor joining the Alliance a tarnished event that is essentially a failure and thus a loss for the Alliance?

    "I was trying to negotiate with the Sin'dorei. I was opening discussions to bring them into the Alliance! By attacking their people, you've forced their hand-"

    What's the purpose of putting in a plot line that would never, and could never, be developed? It serves no purpose other than to give the Alliance victory of Dalaran a black eye.

    If not for the Purge of Dalaran, the Alliance "grand victory" then the Alliance could conceivably have gained:
    Dalaran
    Kirin Tor
    Sunreavers
    Blood Elves
    Silvermoon

    Instead we got 2 out of 5 and that's awesome?

    The devil's in the details and these tiny little additions are what makes me feel like Blizzard has screwed up the Alliance story. When Kosak generalizes the Alliance victories, they sound great, and the ideas ARE great, but the execution of them comes off making the Alliance look like bumbling idiots more often than heroes.
    I don't think they put that line in there to smite alliance players (believe it or not) it was there to show that all is not well with the horde. Yes Jaina fucked up with that but it sets in motion the events for 5.2 for the alliance finding out somethings not all right inside the horde.

  8. #568
    Bloodsail Admiral
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    Let me know when I can go to Alliance controlled Dalaran.

  9. #569
    Quote Originally Posted by khalltusk View Post
    1) I asked you what would you like to see story wise that would make you feel its an alliance victory as you've not told us.
    I'll chime in on this, if you don't mind.

    At this point, I think the damage is done. I really don't feel we can come out of Siege of Orgrimmar without the Alliance looking somewhat foolish and since we've been told phasing areas to show Horde defeat is out of the question, I simply don't think we can salvage MoP to give a sense of Alliance victory so much as Horde victory supported by Alliance forces.

    If player feedback had been considered before and changes could be made to the build up of Siege of Orgrimmar, however....here's what I would have changed to alter the entire tone of the Alliance storyline without impacting the Horde story at all.


    Purge of Dalaran
    I would COMPLETELY drop the idea that Varian was working to bring the blood elves into the Alliance. That information by itself makes Dalaran a complete SNAFU, a total failure, and a LOSS for the Alliance, not a victory. The way Blizzard put it in game, the Alliance's "big victory" is to gain a city they would have already had, lost the Sunreavers as an Alliance faction, and lost Silvermoon itself as an Alliance city (lore wise). The blood elves are never going to flip sides from gameplay perspective, so why bring it up for the story as it only serves to undercut the victory of Dalaran being an Alliance city.

    Without the purge, Dalaran AND Silvermoon would have likely been Alliance cities, so Dalaran is really a loss for the Alliance in that respect.

    I would have had active Horde agents in Dalaran, having just infiltrated the city intent on taking it for the Horde by killing off the Kirin Tor. The Alliance player would fight them off and kill them, then deal with the Sunreavers and imprisoning them for questioning until everything is sorted out. This could still establish Lor'themar's fury for Garrosh and still see Jaina as overreacting by blaming the Sunreavers for the infiltration and attack. The Horde would still keep their jail break scenario in its entirety but there would be more clear reason for the purge and the Horde would actually fail in an attack and be defeated for a change and have no indication of the blood elves in negotiations with Varian.

    Trials of the Supreme Allied Commander
    I'm going to only use the scenarios in game here.

    For A Little Patience, I would have reversed the roles. I would have had Varian hesitant because Anduin has informed him the temple is a sacred place, but seeing little option but to press their advantage. Make him the one about to make the mistake, though not happy about the situation. Tyrande would then be the one to offer an alternative and lay the traps for the orcs. Her dialogue could still be very aggressive, venomous towards the orcs and clearly eager to kill every last one of them, but making it a point that "they will die how we choose." Concluding the scenario, Varian would comment on how he better understands Tyrande and her people's methods and tactics. Throwing in his experience in Ashenvale gave him great understanding of the worgens' strengths but he wasn't as close to the night elves' tactics. Knowing both will be greatly valuable in the future and Tyrande could reply to the effect that it is good to see he is able to observe and learn from his allies.

    Blood in the Snow I would have kept mainly as it is but this time have Varian offering his assistance to deal with trolls in the dwarves' land and I would have had the dwarves come to an arrangement ahead of time. Varian would be under Moira, or the Council's command in the scenario and join the battle alongside the dwarves at the end. Moira would come out showing full support from the Dark Irons and the Bronzebeards would note that Varian is not too proud to be commanded, showing some humility from the king. The Wildhammers, with no interest in owning Ironforge, would be the clan to stay behind while Bronzebeards and Dark Irons marched with Varian.

    Preferably, we would have had a scenario with the draenei and something with the gnomes as well. At the end of these scenarios, the Alliance Leaders would gather for a council (like in Cataclysm) and they would name Varian Supreme Allied Commander. Varian would again show his humility in being given the title, and make a small speech of how Anduin Lothar was like a second father, and the man he looks up to more than anyone. To be given the title Lothar once held, and Turalyon after him, would be a great honor, he'd do his best to lead them in the coming battles against Garrosh, and that he's learned much from each of them and he believes he can utilize their strengths to work cohesively for a Siege on Orgrimmar.

    Preparing for the Siege
    For the Durotar quests, I would have established a small camp at the border of Durotar and Barrens with Shandris Feathermoon, night elves, Draenei, and Sully & Amber. Rather than a cat, you'd go with a night elf priestess of the moon & Sully to stealth around Orgrimmar's area. You'd still obtain the pieces of information and free the troll, but you'd mark some named orcs for sniping by Amber similar to the quest with Gizmo & Socks.

    Upon returning to camp, the troll you rescued would approach and be brought to Shandris. She'd deliver a request for a meeting between Shandris and Vol'jin, but Shandris would send the player as her representative. I think this would be crucial in shifting the tone of the Alliance players' views because Vol'jin would be reaching out to ask for help (hell, he asked for Alliance help in Cataclysm!) as Baine advised him to. This would also show the Horde that Vol'jin listens to his friends' advice and be a little bit of a mirror of Thrall not listening to Cairne while Vol'jin does listen to Baine.

    Essentially the same quest, but a little more aggression with the assassinations and you'd have a military leader making the decision to parlay with Vol'jin rather than a field agent. You'd also give the Alliance the appearance of preparing to invade and lay siege rather than just 2 agents in the entire area.
    "There is good and evil in this world; we must find the black and white in the gray."

  10. #570
    Quote Originally Posted by khalltusk View Post
    I don't think they put that line in there to smite alliance players (believe it or not) it was there to show that all is not well with the horde. Yes Jaina fucked up with that but it sets in motion the events for 5.2 for the alliance finding out somethings not all right inside the horde.
    This too. Just on the Alliance side of the story in game, they never really established that a lot of the Horde are turning against Garrosh. So they have to feed some bits in for people who don't follow the story as a whole.
    Last edited by Aquamonkey; 2013-08-28 at 06:40 PM.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    I'm determined to someday make Med'an awesome. (MickyNeilson)
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    ´So.. sorry to bring this up but..you know that .."thing" (Med'an).. is that "thing" cannon still?
    ...as much have some have wished otherwise, yes. (Loreology)

  11. #571
    Quote Originally Posted by Faroth View Post
    I'll chime in on this, if you don't mind.

    At this point, I think the damage is done. I really don't feel we can come out of Siege of Orgrimmar without the Alliance looking somewhat foolish and since we've been told phasing areas to show Horde defeat is out of the question, I simply don't think we can salvage MoP to give a sense of Alliance victory so much as Horde victory supported by Alliance forces.

    If player feedback had been considered before and changes could be made to the build up of Siege of Orgrimmar, however....here's what I would have changed to alter the entire tone of the Alliance storyline without impacting the Horde story at all.


    Purge of Dalaran
    I would COMPLETELY drop the idea that Varian was working to bring the blood elves into the Alliance. That information by itself makes Dalaran a complete SNAFU, a total failure, and a LOSS for the Alliance, not a victory. The way Blizzard put it in game, the Alliance's "big victory" is to gain a city they would have already had, lost the Sunreavers as an Alliance faction, and lost Silvermoon itself as an Alliance city (lore wise). The blood elves are never going to flip sides from gameplay perspective, so why bring it up for the story as it only serves to undercut the victory of Dalaran being an Alliance city.

    Without the purge, Dalaran AND Silvermoon would have likely been Alliance cities, so Dalaran is really a loss for the Alliance in that respect.

    I would have had active Horde agents in Dalaran, having just infiltrated the city intent on taking it for the Horde by killing off the Kirin Tor. The Alliance player would fight them off and kill them, then deal with the Sunreavers and imprisoning them for questioning until everything is sorted out. This could still establish Lor'themar's fury for Garrosh and still see Jaina as overreacting by blaming the Sunreavers for the infiltration and attack. The Horde would still keep their jail break scenario in its entirety but there would be more clear reason for the purge and the Horde would actually fail in an attack and be defeated for a change and have no indication of the blood elves in negotiations with Varian.

    Trials of the Supreme Allied Commander
    I'm going to only use the scenarios in game here.

    For A Little Patience, I would have reversed the roles. I would have had Varian hesitant because Anduin has informed him the temple is a sacred place, but seeing little option but to press their advantage. Make him the one about to make the mistake, though not happy about the situation. Tyrande would then be the one to offer an alternative and lay the traps for the orcs. Her dialogue could still be very aggressive, venomous towards the orcs and clearly eager to kill every last one of them, but making it a point that "they will die how we choose." Concluding the scenario, Varian would comment on how he better understands Tyrande and her people's methods and tactics. Throwing in his experience in Ashenvale gave him great understanding of the worgens' strengths but he wasn't as close to the night elves' tactics. Knowing both will be greatly valuable in the future and Tyrande could reply to the effect that it is good to see he is able to observe and learn from his allies.

    Blood in the Snow I would have kept mainly as it is but this time have Varian offering his assistance to deal with trolls in the dwarves' land and I would have had the dwarves come to an arrangement ahead of time. Varian would be under Moira, or the Council's command in the scenario and join the battle alongside the dwarves at the end. Moira would come out showing full support from the Dark Irons and the Bronzebeards would note that Varian is not too proud to be commanded, showing some humility from the king. The Wildhammers, with no interest in owning Ironforge, would be the clan to stay behind while Bronzebeards and Dark Irons marched with Varian.

    Preferably, we would have had a scenario with the draenei and something with the gnomes as well. At the end of these scenarios, the Alliance Leaders would gather for a council (like in Cataclysm) and they would name Varian Supreme Allied Commander. Varian would again show his humility in being given the title, and make a small speech of how Anduin Lothar was like a second father, and the man he looks up to more than anyone. To be given the title Lothar once held, and Turalyon after him, would be a great honor, he'd do his best to lead them in the coming battles against Garrosh, and that he's learned much from each of them and he believes he can utilize their strengths to work cohesively for a Siege on Orgrimmar.

    Preparing for the Siege
    For the Durotar quests, I would have established a small camp at the border of Durotar and Barrens with Shandris Feathermoon, night elves, Draenei, and Sully & Amber. Rather than a cat, you'd go with a night elf priestess of the moon & Sully to stealth around Orgrimmar's area. You'd still obtain the pieces of information and free the troll, but you'd mark some named orcs for sniping by Amber similar to the quest with Gizmo & Socks.

    Upon returning to camp, the troll you rescued would approach and be brought to Shandris. She'd deliver a request for a meeting between Shandris and Vol'jin, but Shandris would send the player as her representative. I think this would be crucial in shifting the tone of the Alliance players' views because Vol'jin would be reaching out to ask for help (hell, he asked for Alliance help in Cataclysm!) as Baine advised him to. This would also show the Horde that Vol'jin listens to his friends' advice and be a little bit of a mirror of Thrall not listening to Cairne while Vol'jin does listen to Baine.

    Essentially the same quest, but a little more aggression with the assassinations and you'd have a military leader making the decision to parlay with Vol'jin rather than a field agent. You'd also give the Alliance the appearance of preparing to invade and lay siege rather than just 2 agents in the entire area.
    My my about time someone put something decent on here!

    I do think the drenai got the short stick the only mention so far was for Valen. :/ I think the way you described a little bit of patience would have been far better overall cant really argue with those points it would have made the whole king commander thing much better.

  12. #572
    Scarab Lord Grubjuice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arcanist View Post
    If I can't see it in game, it doesn't exist.

    Why should I read some third rate novel for my lore when the other side gets to see their lore in game?
    hear hear!

  13. #573
    Quote Originally Posted by Lostwood View Post
    It could be, if they didn't cut corners. Andorhal is an excellent example.
    If they had a unlimited developers, they could make those changes everywhere. With all the new devs Blizzard is adding and the supposed content patch every month, maybe they will make the world more dynamic.

    Andorhal was probably put in because it was an event experienced by PCs of both factions. More bang for the buck in phasing that location.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    I'm determined to someday make Med'an awesome. (MickyNeilson)
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    ´So.. sorry to bring this up but..you know that .."thing" (Med'an).. is that "thing" cannon still?
    ...as much have some have wished otherwise, yes. (Loreology)

  14. #574
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    So a victory less than the victory that could have been is not a victory? It was part of the story as a whole. LT talked about revisiting old "alliances" during the Horde side of the quest. They needed a hook to explain why LT would stand against Garrosh and not just abandon the rest of the Horde. Especially with Aethas screaming that they should leave.
    It's a victory, but it's a victory IMMEDIATELY clouded by the revelation that you actually screwed things up. It doesn't feel that great to be told "hey, you just fucked up everything I was working on."
    Was it part of the story as a whole? How much impact does it have? There's no indication the blood elves were negotiating with Varian other than a sentence. Does that revelation alter the entire idea? I don't see it as a necessary point. It just seems like it wasn't necessary.

    Quote Originally Posted by khalltusk View Post
    I don't think they put that line in there to smite alliance players (believe it or not) it was there to show that all is not well with the horde. Yes Jaina fucked up with that but it sets in motion the events for 5.2 for the alliance finding out somethings not all right inside the horde.
    I don't think it was done intentionally to spite the Alliance players. I don't think Blizzard actively looks for ways to piss them off.
    But again, it's abundantly clear all is not well within the Horde and I think Dalaran could have been done near identical without mentioning we screwed up by taking action.


    I think the overall story when summarized is cool and that's what Kosak does in the interview, he skims over the highlights that makes it sound like Alliance is doing some awesome stuff. But on the detailed level, it's pretty lackluster.

    Now, part of that is the Horde kind of needed more time in this expansion for the climax to make sense. We don't need to explain why the Alliance wants to stop Garrosh but the Horde need some development to push it to that point beyond "we're uncomfortable with his tactics" from Cataclysm. So I get that.

    But the focus on the Horde's developing reason for rebellion does heavily overshadow the Alliance and the small annoyances within the Alliance story are what build up to a bigger problem for the players. I really think small changes on the Alliance side would have altered the mood a lot.
    "There is good and evil in this world; we must find the black and white in the gray."

  15. #575
    Quote Originally Posted by Faroth View Post
    It's a victory, but it's a victory IMMEDIATELY clouded by the revelation that you actually screwed things up. It doesn't feel that great to be told "hey, you just fucked up everything I was working on."
    Was it part of the story as a whole? How much impact does it have? There's no indication the blood elves were negotiating with Varian other than a sentence. Does that revelation alter the entire idea? I don't see it as a necessary point. It just seems like it wasn't necessary.
    Just on the Alliance side of the story in game, they never really established that a lot of the Horde are turning against Garrosh. So they have to feed some bits in for people who don't follow the story as a whole.

    Could they have done it better? Probably. But squeezing a quick line in there to impart that idea is at least something.

    EDIT: I guess Alliance doing Dagger in the Dark also does this, but that's more making Horde story playable by Alliance than putting it in the Alliance story.
    Last edited by Aquamonkey; 2013-08-28 at 07:12 PM.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    I'm determined to someday make Med'an awesome. (MickyNeilson)
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    ´So.. sorry to bring this up but..you know that .."thing" (Med'an).. is that "thing" cannon still?
    ...as much have some have wished otherwise, yes. (Loreology)

  16. #576
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    Just on the Alliance side of the story in game, they never really established that a lot of the Horde are turning against Garrosh. So they have to feed some bits in for people who don't follow the story as a whole.
    Well, other than Varian secretly talking to blood elves, we didn't see any indication on the Alliance side in-game that the Horde was fracturing. That revelation would have actually been a bigger bombshell on Isle of Thunder for Lor'themar to announce he's planning open rebellion without the Varian reveal and would have been even more impactful had the Alliance driven out actual Horde infiltrators before imprisoning Sunreavers.

    Though I can also see an argument the Alliance possibly should have seen more evidence of fracturing prior to "hey trolls are rebelling!"

    Horde didn't really need an excuse from Sylvanas, Vol'jin's reason was well established, goblins are shakily given reason in Dark Heart of Pandaria, orcs are going to be split on playerbase opinions. Only Baine's fully fleshed out motivations are relegated to a book.
    "There is good and evil in this world; we must find the black and white in the gray."

  17. #577
    Quote Originally Posted by Faroth View Post
    Well, other than Varian secretly talking to blood elves, we didn't see any indication on the Alliance side in-game that the Horde was fracturing. That revelation would have actually been a bigger bombshell on Isle of Thunder for Lor'themar to announce he's planning open rebellion without the Varian reveal and would have been even more impactful had the Alliance driven out actual Horde infiltrators before imprisoning Sunreavers.

    Though I can also see an argument the Alliance possibly should have seen more evidence of fracturing prior to "hey trolls are rebelling!"

    Horde didn't really need an excuse from Sylvanas, Vol'jin's reason was well established, goblins are shakily given reason in Dark Heart of Pandaria, orcs are going to be split on playerbase opinions. Only Baine's fully fleshed out motivations are relegated to a book.
    NO one messes with a goblins pay and gets away with it!

  18. #578
    Quote Originally Posted by khalltusk View Post
    NO one messes with a goblins pay and gets away with it!
    DAMN STRAIGHT!

    Underpaying the goblins is the true reason for Garrosh's downfall!

    Once upon a time, I thought goblins would be the first neutral race for both factions, essentially coming down to the player's character deciding their faction by which side they thought they could make more money from by end of a starting/intro area.
    Last edited by Faroth; 2013-08-28 at 07:31 PM.
    "There is good and evil in this world; we must find the black and white in the gray."

  19. #579
    Quote Originally Posted by khalltusk View Post
    NO one messes with a goblins pay and gets away with it!
    Quote Originally Posted by Faroth View Post
    DAMN STRAIGHT!

    Underpaying the goblins is the true reason for Garrosh's downfall!
    If 1 goblin cartel gets stiffed on payment, they all descend upon the deadbeat like wisps on Archimonde.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    I'm determined to someday make Med'an awesome. (MickyNeilson)
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    ´So.. sorry to bring this up but..you know that .."thing" (Med'an).. is that "thing" cannon still?
    ...as much have some have wished otherwise, yes. (Loreology)

  20. #580
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    If 1 goblin cartel gets stiffed on payment, they all descend upon the deadbeat like wisps on Archimonde.
    Mess with 1 cartel, it's bad for business for all cartels!
    "There is good and evil in this world; we must find the black and white in the gray."

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