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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Archimtiros View Post
    By keeping yourself playing Arms, YOU are holding your group/guild back. Yes Blizzard made the spec trash but you have options and you choose not to take them. If I was your raid leader in any sort of serious raiding environment, you would be benched.
    And how is that accpetable? Going a bit further one could say that every RL should bench every fury/prot warrior because they could be playing a rogue/paladin/monk.

    Either we have something like in BC or we have all specs at least average, but nowadays warriors have 2 worst than average specs and a shitty one while there's classes with 100% viable specs, and sometimes even 2-3 over the top specs.

    We've got the short stick for almost 3 patches now and instead of doing whatever locks did with the KJC nerf, we blame ourselves for not choosing the least shitty spec.

  2. #22
    Pandaren Monk Archimtiros's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jotabito View Post
    And how is that accpetable? Going a bit further one could say that every RL should bench every fury/prot warrior because they could be playing a rogue/paladin/monk.

    Either we have something like in BC or we have all specs at least average, but nowadays warriors have 2 worst than average specs and a shitty one while there's classes with 100% viable specs, and sometimes even 2-3 over the top specs.

    We've got the short stick for almost 3 patches now and instead of doing whatever locks did with the KJC nerf, we blame ourselves for not choosing the least shitty spec.
    There is a very real difference between refusing to change specs when one is clearly superior by a significant margin; and rerolling. To ignore the fact that rerolling sets you back by a large margin in the legendary race, more than likely you will not be as good as (I hope) you are playing your "main" class. Also there could then add somewhat less important gearing issues amongst your raid team.

    We did get the short end of the stick a bit, but I question how out of touch some people commenting here are. Fury is average/slightly below average. We are by no means in nearly as bad a place as some people seem to think.

    I cannot understand how this thread has progressed. A few posts ago people were calling for Warriors to be buffed because a 5% increase in damage would equate into killing a boss 3% earlier (paraphrased).
    Now you are trying to justify playing the worst spec currently in the game. My mind is officially boggled.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Archimtiros View Post
    There is a very real difference between refusing to change specs when one is clearly superior by a significant margin; and rerolling. To ignore the fact that rerolling sets you back by a large margin in the legendary race, more than likely you will not be as good as (I hope) you are playing your "main" class. Also there could then add somewhat less important gearing issues amongst your raid team.

    We did get the short end of the stick a bit, but I question how out of touch some people commenting here are. Fury is average/slightly below average. We are by no means in nearly as bad a place as some people seem to think.

    I cannot understand how this thread has progressed. A few posts ago people were calling for Warriors to be buffed because a 5% increase in damage would equate into killing a boss 3% earlier (paraphrased).
    Now you are trying to justify playing the worst spec currently in the game. My mind is officially boggled.
    The title of the thread didn't suggest that this was a fury only thread and i'm not trying to justify anything, as i said on my first post on this thread, a 5% dps difference between melee dps would be great for me. I'll even sign a lifetime subscription if all specs were within a 10% variance every patch even if i stopped playing next month.

    What i'm not buying is that we should smile at blizz because they let us have a below average spec for both dps/tank and a worthless dps one when there are classes that have 2 or even 3 specs above average for their respective roles.

    We should be talking about what's the best spec to play, not about what's the least bad (if that's a thing, sometimes writing in your 4th language doesn't make any sense).

  4. #24
    Why does it seem like other classes are allowed to lobby for multiple viable dps specs(specifically their prefered pvp spec being pve viable) but when some guy talks about playing arms this past tier and wishing it was fully viable for pve, his own class community tells him to stfu and sit the fuck down? Stop being so hostile. That said gains from gear within a tier have diminishing value when you stack them all on person, so passing on all upgrades is not just bad for you it is bad for the raid team.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Skiboy View Post
    Why does it seem like other classes are allowed to lobby for multiple viable dps specs(specifically their prefered pvp spec being pve viable) but when some guy talks about playing arms this past tier and wishing it was fully viable for pve, his own class community tells him to stfu and sit the fuck down? Stop being so hostile. That said gains from gear within a tier have diminishing value when you stack them all on person, so passing on all upgrades is not just bad for you it is bad for the raid team.
    I don't think anyone is suggesting that we say nothing. We're calling dude out for passing on Heroic gear under the extremely lame assumption that he won't as much use of it as another class.

    I'm all for Warrior buffs, but I think more appropriately there needs to be Mage/Warlock/Rogue nerfs. There's a difference between bringing us up to Mage/Warlock levels versus dropping them down to ours, and that's a stigma that hasn't really been prevalent in a while.

    My argument is this: If the best guilds in the world are using an underpowered class and maintaining World/Region First kills, how is that class still not considered viable?

    Not everyone can be #1, and the disparity in DPS between Warriors and Mages/Warlocks just means that those two classes are overtuned, not that Warriors are broken.

  6. #26
    Well from playing on the ptr now a couple times in better gear it looks to me like the overall position of fury hasn't changed all that much - not that this comes super surprising. Arms gets carried hard by absolutely effortless aoe in dk fashion but has still in comparison to about everything pretty lame single target.
    Last edited by cFortyfive; 2013-08-28 at 05:42 AM.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Prag View Post
    I don't think anyone is suggesting that we say nothing. We're calling dude out for passing on Heroic gear under the extremely lame assumption that he won't as much use of it as another class.

    I'm all for Warrior buffs, but I think more appropriately there needs to be Mage/Warlock/Rogue nerfs. There's a difference between bringing us up to Mage/Warlock levels versus dropping them down to ours, and that's a stigma that hasn't really been prevalent in a while.

    My argument is this: If the best guilds in the world are using an underpowered class and maintaining World/Region First kills, how is that class still not considered viable?

    Not everyone can be #1, and the disparity in DPS between Warriors and Mages/Warlocks just means that those two classes are overtuned, not that Warriors are broken.
    Most are asking for buffs because a DPS always wants to do more, but all we really want is to at least be close to what those classes do. If that is achieved through nerfing them some, I'm sure most Warriors would be fine with that.

    To your other point, in 25M the extra raid DPS from banner makes up most of the lack of individual DPS lost from bringing a Warrior, so yea they are still kinda viable there. I however, am in a 10 man guild. When your banner is only effecting 5/6 DPS instead of 17-20 DPS it no longer makes up for your lower individual DPS. I had to sit out on over half of H-ToT progression simply because I play a Warrior, and we have a lot of ranged DPS on our roster. I was in on Jinrohk and Ji-Kun (who still wont give me a damn feather) and was able to keep up on DPS, but most other fights I can't compete with ranged/multi-dotters. If I have to sit on progression for another raid tier simply because I choose to play a Warrior, I'm probably done with WoW.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by DOUBLEXBAUGH View Post
    I however, am in a 10 man guild. When your banner is only effecting 5/6 DPS instead of 17-20 DPS it no longer makes up for your lower individual DPS. I had to sit out on over half of H-ToT progression simply because I play a Warrior, and we have a lot of ranged DPS on our roster.
    So you switched a plate dps for another ranged dps and lost every single plate dps drop in the instance? That's not a good decision imo, especially since warriors offer so much for 10m raids. Either you are really underperforming or your raid underestimates the difference 10 ilvl on a char makes on fights like Lei-Shen.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by DOUBLEXBAUGH View Post
    I however, am in a 10 man guild. When your banner is only effecting 5/6 DPS instead of 17-20 DPS it no longer makes up for your lower individual DPS. I had to sit out on over half of H-ToT progression simply because I play a Warrior, and we have a lot of ranged DPS on our roster.
    Paragon used Oixte in their progression. So the "I'm useless in 10man" argument is kinda misplaced. Though only less than half of top guilds use dps warriors in 10man progression. You have to be really good or have top notch gear to keep up (probably both).

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Anduryondon View Post
    So you switched a plate dps for another ranged dps and lost every single plate dps drop in the instance? That's not a good decision imo, especially since warriors offer so much for 10m raids. Either you are really underperforming or your raid underestimates the difference 10 ilvl on a char makes on fights like Lei-Shen.
    Sitting on progression doesn't mean I never get in, I just miss the fun part of learning the fight and working towards a kill. I was in for the more single target fights like the 2 in my first post, and I was on interrupt/orb duty for Horridon. On the other fights, unless the first kill was hard I will most likely be in on the next kill if there is gear for me. I understand someone has to sit, and I have no problem sitting if I was standing in fire, causing wipes, or it was my turn in the rotation, but when its because I play a melee class and even worse a warrior, there is something wrong.

    Raiding mainly farm content is like only raiding LFR, not fun or worth it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Smag View Post
    Paragon used Oixte in their progression. So the "I'm useless in 10man" argument is kinda misplaced. Though only less than half of top guilds use dps warriors in 10man progression. You have to be really good or have top notch gear to keep up (probably both).
    Never said it wasn't possible, but if you could replace that Warrior with a Mage or Lock and make the fight a lot easier why wouldn't you?

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by DOUBLEXBAUGH View Post
    Never said it wasn't possible, but if you could replace that Warrior with a Mage or Lock and make the fight a lot easier why wouldn't you?
    First of all, in 10m warriors offer a lot of raid defensive cooldowns and you need these much more in 10m compared to 25m. Especially with the huge vigilance buff, we have yet another timer, we can even throw on tanks or other persons that get dangerous debuffs.

    Second argument is that for most fights you want at least one melee, because there are mechanics that only target ranged and to reduce the ranged cluster on raids where you have to stay spread out. If you have a brewmaster tank and a hunter (both strong classes for 10m raids) you already have 2 agility users. So you have to think about taking another agility melee user, further sharing the loot of the raid or choosing a plate class, so you can get the most out of your loot.
    Now you have to choose between warriors, DKs, paladins. Imo in 10m a warrior is preferable to a DK (due to the reasons in pt1 and higher mobility) and since almost every raid has a prot and/or heal paladin a ret won't offer much additional benefit.

    Most of the times you should not compare us to ranged classes, because that's not a warrior problem, that's a problem with melees being so much more unattractive than ranged (and gets addressed this tier by having melees doing higher (single target) dps than ranged, at least that's the intention).

  12. #32
    our community is in weak spot and we as a Warriors doesnt help much for the situation.
    i just saw a ridicoulus thread calling to nerf Arms by Warriors!!!

  13. #33
    Moderator sjsctt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DOUBLEXBAUGH View Post
    Sitting on progression doesn't mean I never get in, I just miss the fun part of learning the fight and working towards a kill. I was in for the more single target fights like the 2 in my first post, and I was on interrupt/orb duty for Horridon. On the other fights, unless the first kill was hard I will most likely be in on the next kill if there is gear for me. I understand someone has to sit, and I have no problem sitting if I was standing in fire, causing wipes, or it was my turn in the rotation, but when its because I play a melee class and even worse a warrior, there is something wrong.

    Raiding mainly farm content is like only raiding LFR, not fun or worth it.



    Never said it wasn't possible, but if you could replace that Warrior with a Mage or Lock and make the fight a lot easier why wouldn't you?
    Name a fight this tier on heroic, and I can name you a strength that we offer. Perhaps you didn't know how to leverage our strengths to your raid? What other class offers 3 raid CDs? The real value of our raid CDs is that we don't have to be stacked. For instance, on Dark Animus, we cover 2 jolts. Not many classes can do that if any. I would argue our worst fight is either iron qon (our dps just isn't competitive), but here you need a ton of melee, so you shouldn't get sat. The other fight we are weak in is progression council, where mult-dotters reign supreme. Here, you still offer valuable raid CDs and with glyphing, you can do great dmg on Sul. Point is, you just have to leverage our strengths.

  14. #34
    Stood in the Fire Snuglz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tgee View Post
    I was wondering how ur dps is going to look in 5.4?

    Havent really read anything about it yet, but we are atm doing Lei shen HC and i have really hard keeping up with the other dps, only one i beat is DK's, Shadowpriests and Retridin...

    And yes i do play my class to well, so its not about that.

    is this going to improve in 5.4?
    If you are a serious raider, currently it looks like you will be Fury for single target and Arms for Aoe/Cleave. Arms is completely faceroll of a spec and takes no skill to optimize it 95%. Fury is around 10-15% ahead of Arms in single target. Since Arms secondary stats are different than fury that means when you go arms you have to completely reforge your gear back and forth for Arms and fury. Also, about half the fights in SoO are good for AoE/Cleave and the rest are good for Fury so you will be swapping back and forth all night. And if you have questions about what gear you should go for, Just go with Crit/Mastery gear (Fury Stats) becaue Arms secondary stats are the lowest in the game and the ONLY reason Arms AoE/Cleave is good is bc the DW buff and SS/Slam is completely overpowered that it makes AoE/Cleave fights in Siege Arms bitch. You literally have to press MS, CS, Slam, and just macro together thunderclap/SS and you will be doing the aoe/cleave rotation almost perfectly.

    Basically it is broken in so many ways lol

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skiboy View Post
    Why does it seem like other classes are allowed to lobby for multiple viable dps specs(specifically their prefered pvp spec being pve viable) but when some guy talks about playing arms this past tier and wishing it was fully viable for pve, his own class community tells him to stfu and sit the fuck down? Stop being so hostile. That said gains from gear within a tier have diminishing value when you stack them all on person, so passing on all upgrades is not just bad for you it is bad for the raid team.
    Welcome to the warrior "community" where epeen and telling people they're wrong is the norm...
    I'm so sick of reading this shit forum tbh lol its just mind boggling...

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by DOUBLEXBAUGH View Post
    To your other point, in 25M the extra raid DPS from banner makes up most of the lack of individual DPS lost from bringing a Warrior, so yea they are still kinda viable there.
    Bring 8-12+ WL's & 8-12+ Mage's and 1 Warrior for Banner dosn't sound viable for me ...

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Anduryondon View Post
    First of all, in 10m warriors offer a lot of raid defensive cooldowns and you need these much more in 10m compared to 25m. Especially with the huge vigilance buff, we have yet another timer, we can even throw on tanks or other persons that get dangerous debuffs.
    Raid Def CDs - Shaman healer has 3 (We have 2 Shamans when we 3 heal), Priest healer has 2, Monk Tank has 1, Boomkin has Tranq. We have enough that this is mostly irrelevant to me being in or not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anduryondon View Post
    Second argument is that for most fights you want at least one melee, because there are mechanics that only target ranged and to reduce the ranged cluster on raids where you have to stay spread out. If you have a brewmaster tank and a hunter (both strong classes for 10m raids) you already have 2 agility users. So you have to think about taking another agility melee user, further sharing the loot of the raid or choosing a plate class, so you can get the most out of your loot.
    Now you have to choose between warriors, DKs, paladins. Imo in 10m a warrior is preferable to a DK (due to the reasons in pt1 and higher mobility) and since almost every raid has a prot and/or heal paladin a ret won't offer much additional benefit.
    We do have a brewmaster and a hunter, and generally a 5th ranged or our Rogue is still better for progression fights (maximizing str vs agi users means nothing if the fight is progression)

    Quote Originally Posted by Anduryondon View Post
    Most of the times you should not compare us to ranged classes, because that's not a warrior problem, that's a problem with melees being so much more unattractive than ranged (and gets addressed this tier by having melees doing higher (single target) dps than ranged, at least that's the intention).
    Aside from the Rogue (which are the only melee allowed to compete with ranged apparently) all I have to compare to is our ranged.


    Quote Originally Posted by Girana View Post
    Bring 8-12+ WL's & 8-12+ Mage's and 1 Warrior for Banner dosn't sound viable for me ...
    What?
    Last edited by DOUBLEXBAUGH; 2013-08-28 at 02:36 PM.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by DOUBLEXBAUGH View Post
    Raid Def CDs - Shaman healer has 3 (We have 2 Shamans when we 3 heal), Priest healer has 2, Monk Tank has 1, Boomkin has Tranq. We have enough that this is mostly irrelevant to me being in or not.
    Good luck with Monk cd/Priest Bubbles on fights like Dark Animus where you can't stack. Can't say much about shaman cd's, since we don't raid with them.
    Quote Originally Posted by DOUBLEXBAUGH View Post
    We do have a brewmaster and a hunter, and generally a 5th ranged or our Rogue is still better for progression fights (maximizing str vs agi users means nothing if the fight is progression)
    That is only true if you need long enough for progressing through a whole raid. The less time you need to clear the whole raid, the more important it is that you get early gear upgrades for your whole raid. If you clear half of the instance in the first two weeks it makes a huge difference if you had to waste every plate loot (maybe even a weapon/trinket) and your 3 agility users had to split up the loot, or if you have a well balanced setup in terms of ilvl.
    Of course that argument gets less important the more time you need per boss, but it is always hard to discuss about balance issues while not assuming the optimal performance.

  19. #39
    Where are we going to stand in Raids 5.4?

    Group 6.

  20. #40
    In 10 man guilds, we will be the same as this tier... on the bench for anything serious, unless your 11th and 12th person on the rooster stinks so badly that they can't play their class to 70% of its efficiency.

    25 man guilds, top tier wont bring us but will say "reroll rogue". Medium tier will bring good players as always...

    Main problem is that we hit the scaling loft from crit due to near 100% crit, which coupled with low damage per str/mas/haste point equals shitty scaling compared to most other classes in the game.

    Only way to fix is either up scaling massively on mastery or finally ackknowledge that non-dot heavy melees are sheit unless they can get 100% uptime and thus needs to be 10-20% above ranged counterparts in terms of possible achieveable dps. Imagine a scenario where a 25 man team would pack as many melee... unheard off...

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