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  1. #581
    Titan Kelimbror's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sevvy88 View Post
    I realized by doing some thinking that I was unhappy because, like you've pointed out, going from being a "hardcore" raider to a "casual" didn't feel rewarding to me. What I always expected to get out of my WoW was a high end raiding experience like the one I had during TBC, when I was playing the most and with the most focus.

    I realized that I can't eat an apple and expect an orange though. Some people indeed do enjoy LFR and it is enough to keep them engaged. I realized that I was the problem. I could play WoW as a casual, continue on my course of doing raid finder and accept that this was my new norm, either walking away from the game or ultimately becoming happy with my new relationship to the game... or... I could go back to how I used to play: goal focused and striving to complete end game challenges.

    I knew that the former wouldn't keep my occupied, so the choice was clear: if I wanted WoW's end game to be rewarding for me, I just had to restructure how I played the game, and what my intentions for the game were.
    *snip*
    I really do believe you are holding yourself back, and don't speak for everyone!
    100% spot on, accurate assessment of what is going on in this game. Well said. Blizzard makes plenty of mistakes in their iterative design process, but ultimately changing desires and player habits are what causes a large portion of dissatisfaction. I went through a similar evolution and came out enjoying WoW more than ever because of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trollfaced View Post
    I love how Anarchor gets owned by Kittyvicious in every single argument, then he gives up and puts him on his ignore-list instead of responding to anything.
    MMO Champion is like a support group for people who don't like hearing they're wrong...a place where you can blindly ignore the overwhelming amount of people in your thread telling you that you're factually incorrect, logically non sensical, and intentionally ignoring all these things.

    To what end really? To buff post count? To anger people? I mean the OP can't even accept that he doesn't speak for anyone but himself, yet continues to post that his view is right, everyone else is stupid, and then toes the line with passive aggressive behavior.

    There have been plenty of people to accurately reflect the current state of WoW in this thread, far better than I have. The person I just quoted did it very successfully with their anecdote. Unfortunately these forums aren't a place to have intelligent conversations and admit when you are wrong, but instead just platforms for pushing your own agenda like it's a widely held belief system.

    It's the unfortunate nature of all internet forums these days.
    Last edited by Kelimbror; 2013-08-30 at 01:54 PM.
    BAD WOLF

  2. #582
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    The problem is theirs a contradiction here. "So for example, let's say everyone can get 5.3 bis and would sit at 535 minimally speaking." and then "You can see how this would post a serious challenge for people who are not at 535 ilvl" you've just said everybody has the BiS gear. Ironically enough though the problem you describe is EXACTLY what we have now. The mobs took forever to kill in 5.0 (and on 5.2 island) if you were just starting out.
    There is no contradiction. This problem would apply to alts, new players joining, and players who has taken a break. As of right now, new players can go into tot area and do dailies with fairly minimal gear as the reward is 490 ilvl (so mobs are tuned for roughly 477 ilvl player). Imagine if the mobs are designed for 100k dps. Requiring old content to gear up has happened back in TBC with raiding and that is why Blizzard put in catchup mecahnics. What do you think the new catchup mechanics is if all activities are tuned for proper ilvl?

    And yes, 5.0 dailies are tuned for the vp reward ilvl (which is raiding). It felt pretty difficult in just heroic gears right? That would be the way going forward for all patches if players were able to get bis with dailies/dungeons/scenarios.

    And let's say 5.0 dailies are tuned for... people gearing for heroics. Then dailies will become faceroll as soon as ppl get 463 ilvl and continue to faceroll when they start getting vp gears. There will be no meanful progression besides your ilvl going up. How do you know the difference between 2 weight lifters if the test is how fast they can smash a 1 cubic inch tofu?
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  3. #583
    Titan Kelimbror's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wow2011 View Post
    How do you know the difference between 2 weight lifters if the test is how fast they can smash a 1 cubic inch tofu?
    Which one grunts the loudest/has more veins erupt when performing said test? That's the guy who wins the competition. It's like Karate tournaments. It doesn't matter what you're doing, only how loud you can scream nonsensical phrases in pseudo-Japanese.
    BAD WOLF

  4. #584
    Quote Originally Posted by Crookids View Post
    As a result there are systems in place to reward players not interested in power such as vanity items, pets, titles and mounts. Some of these systems are pet battles, achievements, Brawler's Guild etc... How does this form of end game not appeal to casuals?
    Brawler's Guild - solo content
    Pet Battles - solo content
    Achievements - solo content

    All casual activities basically come down to solo content now. The days when you could throw a group of friends together, knock out a heroic dungeon or two, and then log off are long gone. Now you can get a few friends together and endure a 45 minute - 3 hour LFR with 24 strangers or you can queue up for a "heroic" dungeons and/or scenarios that don't even require healers in this day and age. How is that appealing to casuals? If I want a solo WoW experience I'll play Skyrim or Dragon Age. If I want pet battles I'll play Pokemon. All of those games are much cheaper.

  5. #585
    Titan Kelimbror's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post
    All casual activities basically come down to solo content now. The days when you could throw a group of friends together, knock out a heroic dungeon or two, and then log off are long gone. Now you can get a few friends together and endure a 45 minute - 3 hour LFR with 24 strangers or you can queue up for a "heroic" dungeons and/or scenarios that don't even require healers in this day and age. How is that appealing to casuals? If I want a solo WoW experience I'll play Skyrim or Dragon Age. If I want pet battles I'll play Pokemon. All of those games are much cheaper.
    What you and several other people keep doing are dancing around the issue of development shifting away from dungeons and on to LFR. Blizzard has already stated they understand dungeons are important and won't make that mistake again. However, this doesn't invalidate all the new content types available.

    Additionally, there are several activities that can be done with groups of friends but most people act like it's Blizzard's responsibility to force them to do them. That's pretty ridiculous if I may say so. Challenge mode dungeons and Heroic scenarios are examples of new small group content available in MoP. Both present challenges, rewards, and progression through either accomplishment or power.

    Unless your argument is you can't just cheese your way to tier gear by spamming aoefest 'heroics' with your buddies for a few hours a week, which isn't exactly the pinnacle of design and really just a gimme gimme gimme system. I loved WotLK because my alts were all decked out. All 9 of them. Do I think this was great design? No, not at all. It was repetitive and presented far less challenge than most content in MoP with less variety.
    BAD WOLF

  6. #586
    OP: what if I told you that there is actually PLENTY of people that want some challenge but can't commit to a 20hrs/week schedule AND... they form entire guilds!
    Which you can join!
    And they raid like 2-3 hours on weekends in a completely casual friendly wide open schedule and they kill shit!
    And they have fun and get the challange you are looking for but the difference between you and them is that these people reached out and looked for a suitable guild, not sat over a ridiculous forum topics and bitched about how everything isn't served to them on a silver platter and they have to sacrifice some time to actually find what they are looking for.
    Because that's what you're doing - bitching about things you claim are problems which you create yourself and solutions to these problems are out there, you just have to see them.
    Want more? In a few days you'll have Flex which, you know... Looks like Blizzards' response personally to you.
    Or enjoy some PvP in a PvP guild. Log in, find someone to do a bunch of arena matches with, do some achievements on BGs. There's a challenge to it too.
    And if you're ignorant to the point you're not willing to do that, then I suppose it's best you take a break from this game and try to appreciate something else because you clearly don't appreciate WoW and don't give it a credit for what it really offers solely out of your ignorance.

    I know, right?! It's ridiculous!

    Whatever...
    Last edited by Hawtdawg; 2013-08-30 at 02:47 PM.

  7. #587
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    It's quite easy. We can read Blizzard's statement that casuals are not engaged.

    Now, we may not be able to say with certainty WHY the expansion isn't casual friendly. But empirically, it isn't.
    The idea that casual players aren't sticking around doesn't mean that the game isn't casual friendly. It means that they don't find the content enjoyable. Apples and oranges.
    Benevolence is a luxury for the strong - Wrathion
    Plox. I got your plox right fucking here. - Animalhouse
    I still prefer seeing Thrall rather than blood in my urine, that doesnt make him a good character. - Verdugo

  8. #588
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    This can never be true. It is not a customer's job to enjoy a product or service he is provided, or to make up for perceived deficiencies in that product or service.
    Yes it CAN be true, lol! Let's take an extreme hypothetical where I don't enjoy the game because I can't be bothered to move my character so I just sit in Stormwind (or wherever) all day and stare at my screen. Is that my fault or Blizzard's?

    Back to reality, we're talking about people who do not enjoy the game often for one of the following reasons:

    - They can't manage their gaming priorities. This includes people whose complaints boil down to "<activity> isn't worth the time for the fun/benefit I receive". The most common example is people who complain about reputation. "I NEED THAT GEAR TO PROGRESS!" If it's not worth the task of doing it then don't do it. If you do anyway then either A. It actually is worth it to you or B. You're a moron. This is true even for hardcore players - if your guild demands it of you and it's not worth it to you then find another guild that suits your fucking gameplay style - but it's especially hilarious when it comes from people who say they "have to" get all available VP gear even though their guild will only ever kill half the normals of a given raid tier at best.

    - They can't find a group that fits their gameplay style. These are people who want to progress at X level but can only find guilds that demand more of them than they want. There are guilds out there with good progression that play casually. It's up to you to find them, not Blizzard.

    - "MOP is too alt unfriendly" - If you want multiple alts with up-to-date gear ready to raid current content at a moment's notice, then it's time to stop pretending to be a casual and come out of the closet.

    Look, what it all boils down to is that my specific case (and those of many of my friends and guildees) serves as a proof-positive counterexample that idea that MOP can't appeal to "casual" players of even high levels of gameplay performance and goals is baloney. The tools for a positive gaming experience are out there. If I can do it, so can you.

  9. #589
    Quote Originally Posted by DrSteveBrule View Post
    The thing is you also eliminated any of the rewarding experiences along with it. The bad and good aspects of raiding are hand in hand.
    The players, at least the great majority of them, have demonstrated that the good experiences of difficult content don't, for them, counterbalance the bad. So, they don't do it.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Magpai View Post
    Yes it CAN be true, lol! Let's take an extreme hypothetical where I don't enjoy the game because I can't be bothered to move my character so I just sit in Stormwind (or wherever) all day and stare at my screen. Is that my fault or Blizzard's?
    It's not the player's fault, although he is probably in an unfortunate situation where his personal preference is not going to be served, since it would make little sense for such an unusual preference to be designed around.

    Blizzard's designs fail, and Blizzard accrues the fault and blame, when they screw up and misread the overall market. Individual players are under no obligation to change themselves to fix those screw ups.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler
    I hate these casual Fridays ruining it for real Fridays.

  10. #590
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Individual players are under no obligation to change themselves to fix those screw ups.
    Nor should Blizzard be expected to cater to every sort of player out there, which is what we're currently seeing very half-assed attempts at doing. Not all Blizzard ideas are successful, but the core elements of this game have stayed fairly consistent. They don't suddenly become failures.

    It's ok for gamers to say "this product isn't for me" just as much as it is for Blizzard to say "this product isn't for you".
    Benevolence is a luxury for the strong - Wrathion
    Plox. I got your plox right fucking here. - Animalhouse
    I still prefer seeing Thrall rather than blood in my urine, that doesnt make him a good character. - Verdugo

  11. #591
    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    Nor should Blizzard be expected to cater to every sort of player out there, which is what we're currently seeing very half-assed attempts at doing.
    No, but they SHOULD cater to larger segments of the player population before smaller segments. As I said, Blizzard's screw ups have been demographic in nature.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler
    I hate these casual Fridays ruining it for real Fridays.

  12. #592
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    The players, at least the great majority of them, have demonstrated that the good experiences of difficult content don't, for them, counterbalance the bad. So, they don't do it.

    - - - Updated - - -



    It's not the player's fault, although he is probably in an unfortunate situation where his personal preference is not going to be served, since it would make little sense for such an unusual preference to be designed around.

    Blizzard's designs fail, and Blizzard accrues the fault and blame, when they screw up and misread the overall market. Individual players are under no obligation to change themselves to fix those screw ups.
    Fair enough the players are under no obligation but the only thing blizz can do is provide the sandbox to play in but its still up to you to how you choose to enjoy this game. There is tons of things for new and casual players to do in this game, and good enough content for hardcore players to enjoy. So many people want so much without putting in some time like it should be ready to order at McDicks. Its up to the player to find what they enjoy, it will never be perfect. If you don't enjoy what is offered then you don't need to play its that simple at least blizz is trying to provide more content, 5.4 should be the best patch to date and timeless isle is looking like the starting point to providing more engaging group content with friends in a world setting. You don't need dungeons and raids to do so and I think blizz is finally starting to get that message while still trying to make raids as accessible as ever.

  13. #593
    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    Nor should Blizzard be expected to cater to every sort of player out there, which is what we're currently seeing very half-assed attempts at doing. Not all Blizzard ideas are successful, but the core elements of this game have stayed fairly consistent. They don't suddenly become failures.

    It's ok for gamers to say "this product isn't for me" just as much as it is for Blizzard to say "this product isn't for you".
    You're not saying anything Osmeric didn't say. Blizzard just doesn't have the luxury of saying "this product isn't for you" when they change the product in such a way that a large portion of their potential customers lose interest.

  14. #594
    I think a big part of blizzard's problem is instead of catering to people that enjoy MMO's, they instead cater to people that are interested in the whole "putting in effort to advance your character" and give them instant rewards (see LFR). The problem is, these people apparently never want a challenge and any time they encounter something that may wipe them a few times, they will consider quitting the game. WoW should've probably never screwed around with the old fan base lol.

  15. #595
    Legendary! The Glitch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sevvy88 View Post
    Honestly, OP, it sounds like you are your own worst enemy. I feel for you though, because I think I may have been in a similar situation recently.

    I stopped playing for quite some time, and when I came back, I got my two 85's to 90. I jumped into LFR, and within a week or two I had my paladin all tricked out and caught up in her Raid Finder gear. I was very lucky with drops! I logged in one day, maybe 3 days after the Isle of Thunder came out and realized "I'm bored. I can do LFR, but I don't want to... I can do daily quests, but I don't want to... I'm bored." I proceeded to quit once again.

    I realized by doing some thinking that I was unhappy because, like you've pointed out, going from being a "hardcore" raider to a "casual" didn't feel rewarding to me. What I always expected to get out of my WoW was a high end raiding experience like the one I had during TBC, when I was playing the most and with the most focus.

    I realized that I can't eat an apple and expect an orange though. Some people indeed do enjoy LFR and it is enough to keep them engaged. I realized that I was the problem. I could play WoW as a casual, continue on my course of doing raid finder and accept that this was my new norm, either walking away from the game or ultimately becoming happy with my new relationship to the game... or... I could go back to how I used to play: goal focused and striving to complete end game challenges.

    I knew that the former wouldn't keep my occupied, so the choice was clear: if I wanted WoW's end game to be rewarding for me, I just had to restructure how I played the game, and what my intentions for the game were.

    As many have pointed out: there is more content in WoW now then there ever has been. The game grows massively each year. Options are a wonderful thing, and a great many people (more people than not!) enjoy LFR, LFD, pet battles, and the "slower" side of WoW. Hell, I LOVE pet battles, and LFR is mighty convenient sometimes. If it's not enough for an individual person to justify a subscription or to make their time in the game feel rewarding, then there are other ways for them to achieve that satisfaction, but ultimately, the responsibility to do so is with them.

    Blizzard has given us the tools, we just have to make the choice and have the initiative. LFR is not intended to be an intensely satisfying experience from a challenge/gameplay/technical aspect. It is meant to be "story mode", and yes, many people DO like story mode, and they are satisfied with the experience.

    OP, I say this with all due respect, but if you find the end game boring, then it's time to re-evaluate your own position and your own ways of playing the game. If you want a more intensive experience at end game, join a higher end guild, set goals for yourself, and truly commit to the game and excelling at it on a technical level. Blizzard cannot make you do this, nor is all the content they design aimed at that type of gamer, nor should it be.

    I really do believe you are holding yourself back, and don't speak for everyone!
    This is an excellent post and sums up exactly how I feel. Thank you for putting it into words much more elegantly than I could ever do

  16. #596
    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    The point of linking that thread is that there's a lot of folks in there that would, in fact, consider themselves casual players. This myth that casual = 'no time to play' needs to go away, because it doesn't hold water.
    Noone said, casual - "no time to play". Casuals are those who can't schedule life around video game. It's like, today he can play WoW 6 hours straight, next week he is busy, then he can spend whole week-ends in WoW if I want, etc. You know, just how actual gaming works.

    I wish more people, who are posting in this thread, would understand that.

    And what concerns leveling, it was ruined. I see zero point in your example altogether, as you can stamp lv90 alts to no end as it stands now, with little coherence and absolute lack of balance in actual leveling process.
    I think a big part of blizzard's problem is instead of catering to people that enjoy MMO's, they instead cater to people that are interested in the whole "putting in effort to advance your character" and give them instant rewards (see LFR).
    I think a big part of problem is that people forgot that MMO's don't have to have raid-centered endgame by definition. In fact, raiding as it is hurts MMO aspect, as it makes small groups of isolated cliques (raid guilds), who usually don't participate in anything else but raids unless it is required for raiding, as it makes any trading system completely cosmetical due to non-trade nature of truly worthy items, undermines professions, which if you want to craft not worthless junk but at least something sub-mediocre - you need extremely scarce raid drops, and so on.

    There is more than ever emphasize on raiding, meanwhile leveling aspects are far beyond ruined, and everything else is either entirely cosmetical, or serves as ground-base for raids, with even bigger gap between raiders and non-raiders.

  17. #597
    Dreadlord Bizerk's Avatar
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    In my opinion casual content needs to go back to good 5man dungeons and smaller raids like karazhan without forcing current tier raiding. Currently the pace of content release is faster than the clear speed of casual raiders which makes them feel like it isn't worth bothering.

  18. #598
    Quote Originally Posted by Ferocity View Post
    Noone said, casual - "no time to play".
    You need to go back and re-read this thread then. Because yes, that's exactly what's being said. The latest 'woe is me' moving goalpost is that everything takes too long (and in Cata, everything was too hard)
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    Plox. I got your plox right fucking here. - Animalhouse
    I still prefer seeing Thrall rather than blood in my urine, that doesnt make him a good character. - Verdugo

  19. #599
    Quote Originally Posted by Odina View Post
    But that is true about any aspect of raiding! i have gone weeks without an upgrade and then randomly I will get 2-3 in one night and that is with normal / heroic raiding. LFR is not the only time you raid and get sweet F all ... hell our H.pallie still has yet to get a wepp upgrade from any of our normal or heroic kills! As well as a 10 man I look at 25 mans and then back to us and go "wheres the thunderforged" but I couldnt be assed to invest the time for a 25 man and as such am ok with having less chance at better gear. Valor is not taking a back seat you can still upgrade your gear with it but there will be no easy to get equivalent gear from valor and I agree it sucks especially for alts and slots that refuse to drop!
    On the other hand, as more and more people in your organized raid group gear up, your odds of getting gear increase drastically. The same doesn't hold true for LFR in MoP. Your odds of getting T15 drops from LFR are the same today as they were when the content was first released. As soon as a healing mace drops it's going to your H Pally no matter what. I killed Shek'zeer 15 times, using a coin each time, and never saw a sha-touched weapon. However, that's no surprise because my odds of getting one were only 5% per fight (15% drop rate * 1/3 potential drops). In contrast she drops two items every single time in a normal 10 man and there are seven total choices of items. That gives me a 2/7 (1/7 chance per drop * two drops), or 28.6% probability per week of seeing the mace. That's almost six times the LFR rate! Granted, I will initially be competing with about two or three others for it so initially that chance will only be 9% or so (still double the LFR rate), but over time I'll have six times the odds of getting my drop from a normal 10-man as I would in LFR. So it's not quite the same.

  20. #600
    Field Marshal KoolGuyDags28's Avatar
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    This thread hurts my head, casuals are not suppose to have any sort of challenge they're epics are just handed to them and they just call it a day.


    Meanwhile hardcore they work for the BiS gear and feel accomplished doing so.

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