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  1. #621
    Quote Originally Posted by Anarchor View Post
    No but I'm quite certain that eventually every single raider currently playing the game might come to feel the same way as I do eventually. Expecting people to quit the game just because they don't want to commit to a raidshedule anymore, doesn't seem like a smart thing to do on Blizzard's end.

    And in the end, this thread is nothing but me explaining what is missing for me personally to have me engaged to the game as a 12 months/year subscriber again. At this point I'm unsubscribed (probably forever unless they can adress the 3 points mentioned for people who don't want to commit to a raidshedule) and I feel as if everything that interests me about the game I could just watch videos about on youtube.

    I don't think there is anything wrong about a person admitting what, to them, is missing for them to feel it's worth to become a consistent paying subscriber instead of currently unsubscribed.

    The only fault I made was feeling so convinced about what the game was lacking in terms of gameplay, that I felt every other casual quitting might've felt the same about it. Then again, I am still convinced that if Blizzard would be able to provide the kind of thing I'm looking for that everyone, from casuals to hardcore raiders, would end up spending more time on the game ... not because they have to, but because it'd be fun.

    ---

    People often ask Kungen, when he streams, why he's not playing WoW and his answer always routinely is: "There is nothing to do in WoW." The same goes for pretty much every other ex-WoW streamer.

    So wether there is more to do than before seems rather irrelevant when it's still not enough and there are so many ex-hardcore players that seem to feel this way about the game.
    There is nothing to do because content has been on farm for months for progression guilds. Of course, Kungen says that because everything is cleared and he is in BIS but the past months or so he isnt saying that because we have all been on the PTR getting ready for 5.4 along with gear runs for melee's ranged alts. If you arent willing to put any time into the game then you arent going to get much out of it. I can not imagine 90% of the people who post on here having a good job as that would take commitment and not whining that you arent getting paid enough.

    I can't stand people that come to me whining that they arent making enough yet dont do any of the necessary things needed to get promoted. Just as in Wow, people expect rewards for doing next to nothing.
    s

  2. #622
    Quote Originally Posted by Anarchor View Post
    I'm going to very quickly sum up why MoP's PvE endgame is unable to keep casual players commited to the game:

    - There is a lack of challenge
    - There is no real sense of character progression
    - There isn't a proper system in place that rewards attaining better results or putting in more effort


    If Blizzard wishes to fix their problem of 'lack of commitment from casual players' then above are, in my opinion, the three main obstacles they need to overcome and find solutions for. Lack of commitment from a major part of the playerbase is perhaps one of the biggest flaws of Blizzard in the history of their game design, considering Blizzard games always used to be highly addictive and fun. But apparently Blizzard seems unable to find the right game design formula that would make casual endgame addictive... and fun.
    No the issue is fixing stuff because 1 forum thread gets attention from every crying whiny baby. They keep adding garbage in instead of content, now we have the same fights in LFR, FLEX, NORMAL, HEROIC 4 versions of the same fight instead of 4 challenging bosses.

  3. #623
    Quote Originally Posted by Nobleshield View Post
    Yet a lot of people aren't that good. I honestly think they need to choose and be done with it. If they had ICC-style mechanic raids, the super hardcores would clear it super fast, and be done with it, but really who cares about them? I think MORE people would succeed at raiding if they didn't think the above than them continuing to think they need to innovate bosses and have more accountability to appease the top 1%.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Lots of reasons. Usually only the high-end PVP servers are as good as you claim. My server isn't bad by any means, and we have a couple of decent guilds but you NEVER really see any pugs/alt runs advertised that expect to get anywhere; now there could be these runs but they are never advertised at all. I think this mentality of "My realm pugs heroic ToT" really means "The top 2-3 realms pug heroic ToT" because I can tell you that the vast majority of servers DO NOT.
    Of course heroic pug run aren't in trade chat. It is usually the top guilds putting together a run to gear up alts or melee needing range alts for the next tier. I think we both know how bad it would be taking average players and trying to pug Heroic Tot. The first time someone is called out for making a mistake they will probably leave or the first pull of the boss and you see horrible dps/hps standing in fire would mean kicking them and going back to trade and I couldnt imagine trying to do that to be honest.

  4. #624
    Quote Originally Posted by DrSteveBrule View Post
    Honestly, you're better off not listening to Glorious Leader. Most of what he says is pretty irrational.
    "LFR wasn't designed for casuals."

    Just... fuck.
    You're being deliberately obtuse. This point has been clarified time and again. LFR was not designed because casuals were begging for raids. It was designed because Blizzard decided to focus exclusively on raids. LFR was designed so that when marketing came along and asked, "Given that you're not putting out dungeons for casuals any more what do you expect them to do?" they would have an answer. Saying that Blizzard made LFR for casuals is like saying I baked you a cake because I let you lick the frosting off my discarded spatula. Arguing that this expansion was all about casuals amounts to the birthday boy throwing a tantrum because the guy licking the spatula is getting to sample their cake first.

  5. #625
    Quote Originally Posted by Milkshake86 View Post
    No the issue is fixing stuff because 1 forum thread gets attention from every crying whiny baby. They keep adding garbage in instead of content, now we have the same fights in LFR, FLEX, NORMAL, HEROIC 4 versions of the same fight instead of 4 challenging bosses.
    Yep and you can now add in Proving Grounds that are there to try and teach people how to play their toon at 90, that is insane to me. People whine about LFR doesnt give enough, Normal Tot is called 'too hard' so they have to put in a handicap version and call it Flex. The best part of this is that Normal/Heroic wont need to be nerfed as they will have Flex/Lfr if Normals are too hard which they probably will be for some casual guilds as Normal has a ilvl of 553 especially for guilds who had problems with this Normal Tot but that is why Flex was implemented.

  6. #626
    Warchief Odina's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anarchor View Post

    The fact remains that when LoL or CoD streamers stream their game they don't spend more than half the time of it feeling like they need to stream other content. They play LoL and CoD 24/7. In WoW however, when the raid isn't happening... what do they end up streaming instead... Minecraft, LoL and other random RPG games most of the time..

    It's like asking why TSN covers so many different sports (obviously every sport must suck) when the fishing network only shows fishing obviously the best sport ever becusae you can fill an entire tv day programming with just fishing.

  7. #627
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post
    You're being deliberately obtuse. This point has been clarified time and again. LFR was not designed because casuals were begging for raids. It was designed because Blizzard decided to focus exclusively on raids. LFR was designed so that when marketing came along and asked, "Given that you're not putting out dungeons for casuals any more what do you expect them to do?" they would have an answer. Saying that Blizzard made LFR for casuals is like saying I baked you a cake because I let you lick the frosting off my discarded spatula. Arguing that this expansion was all about casuals amounts to the birthday boy throwing a tantrum because the guy licking the spatula is getting to sample their cake first.
    The best part is that GC tweeted that LFR was introduced for the casual player lol, that is too funny to hear you say all of that. No one else gives a damn about LFR as progression guilds walk through Normals in the first couple weeks then start on Heroic modes. If you look at most progression guilds toons they have ran LFR 1-3 times for a certain piece of gear and that is it. LFR is all about the casual who wants to log in and raid without any schedule or effort.

  8. #628
    Warchief Odina's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by unholyness View Post
    Why don't people transfer off these horrible servers? Most guilds pug/alt run better progression than the top guild on your server, I have never understood why suffer through progression when a server xsfer can fix all of it. I have friends who had the same issue and they server xsferred and made a guild on a good server and are now walking through heroics when they couldnt even hardly do Normal on their old garbage servers that is full of bads..
    Because many are not just here for the raiding and there is quite an active RP comunity...on this RP server? Our group is happy with our progress why transfer off and try to push more when 4 hours a week and progressing at our pace if fine for us?

    As well this brings us back to the social aspect > solo content. There is no one in my raiding team I would want to replace for more gear / progress! I'd rather stick it out with them > getting shit dead faster and getting more gear any day! Thus for myself the team progression >>>>> self progression!
    Last edited by Odina; 2013-08-30 at 07:35 PM.

  9. #629
    Quote Originally Posted by Kittyvicious View Post
    Additionally, there are several activities that can be done with groups of friends but most people act like it's Blizzard's responsibility to force them to do them. That's pretty ridiculous if I may say so. Challenge mode dungeons and Heroic scenarios are examples of new small group content available in MoP. Both present challenges, rewards, and progression through either accomplishment or power.
    No one wants to do challenge mode dungeons because they only drop transmog gear (which, by the way invalidates the frequent claim that LFR kills players' aspirations to raid by awarding similar-looking gear). That leaves scenarios, and as a healer I'm not needed or wanted in those. Also, as Glorious Leader has pointed out on multiple occasions, the drop rate in scenarios is abysmal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kittyvicious View Post
    Unless your argument is you can't just cheese your way to tier gear by spamming aoefest 'heroics' with your buddies for a few hours a week, which isn't exactly the pinnacle of design and really just a gimme gimme gimme system. I loved WotLK because my alts were all decked out. All 9 of them. Do I think this was great design? No, not at all. It was repetitive and presented far less challenge than most content in MoP with less variety.
    The heroics in WotLK were not initially an AoE-fest. By the end of the expansion they were, but I remember many HoL and Ahn'kanet wipes early on. Sure, by the time ICC rolled around and everyone was decked out in 260+ gear everything fell over with AoE. That's to be expected at the end of the expansion. Heroic dungeons in MoP were designed that way from the beginning.

  10. #630
    Quote Originally Posted by Odina View Post
    Because many are not just here for the raiding and there is quite an active RP comunity...on this RP server? Our group is happy with our progress why transfer off and try to push more when 4 hours a week and progressing at our pace if fine for us?
    Sorry I didn't know people still did that stuff, RP, that is different to say the least. I only heard RP servers discussed as servers where people with different sexual lifestyles play, if you know what I mean.

  11. #631
    Herald of the Titans Tekkommo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post
    The heroics in WotLK were not initially an AoE-fest.
    Yes they were, took me and my friends one clear to realise it. They were piss easy from the very start, just like the raids.

  12. #632
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post
    No one wants to do challenge mode dungeons because they only drop transmog gear (which, by the way invalidates the frequent claim that LFR kills players' aspirations to raid by awarding similar-looking gear). That leaves scenarios, and as a healer I'm not needed or wanted in those. Also, as Glorious Leader has pointed out on multiple occasions, the drop rate in scenarios is abysmal.


    The heroics in WotLK were not initially an AoE-fest. By the end of the expansion they were, but I remember many HoL and Ahn'kanet wipes early on. Sure, by the time ICC rolled around and everyone was decked out in 260+ gear everything fell over with AoE. That's to be expected at the end of the expansion. Heroic dungeons in MoP were designed that way from the beginning.
    5-man's have taken a backseat to everything because people whined that heroic dungeons were too hard so they left them easy for baddies and made CM,Heroic scenario's as a step up in difficulty for some players giving better loot. If you want raiding gear then you raid, it isnt that difficult of a concept.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Tekkommo View Post
    Yes they were, took me and my friends one clear to realise it. They were piss easy from the very start, just like the raids.
    Yes, the hard part is the level of play by different player's. What one person calls difficult, other's call easy, that is the problem when it comes to tuning. So I think they now tune to low levels which makes it a AOE fest for most of us.

  13. #633
    Quote Originally Posted by Odina View Post
    11 Normal mode JinRohk kills and 6 Heroic kills. Allways used a coin on the kills... and he's still sporting the LFR one! 28.6% you gave him for that mace due to being in an organised raid and yet still has not gotten an upgrade!

    RNG is RNG be it organised raiding or LFR you are not guaranteed to get that drop!
    28.6% was only for that one item on that one boss. Like you said, RNG is RNG. My point was not that you should always be guaranteed drops. My point was that all these people claiming that LFR is giving the same rewards are ignoring the fact that LFR gives players a much lower drop rate than raiders in normal groups experience.
    Last edited by Ronduwil; 2013-08-30 at 08:06 PM.

  14. #634
    Quote Originally Posted by Anarchor View Post
    For character progression to feel meaningful, in my eyes, it must involve unlocking new content, new challenges and up to a point there also should be choices instead of lineairity. LFR is too lineair, in the sense that after every raidboss you know which the next one is going to be. Gathering gear only becomes purposeful when you feel that whatever upgrade you're going to get is going to help you overcome another challenge you might've already tried your hands at but not have succeeded in overcoming so far.
    What you're describing is never going to happen. You're insisting that characters should be "gated" to feel a sense of progression (and you are gating by this logic don't deny it). We had that system in Vanilla and BC with attunements. Didn't go over too well. You'll have every casual complaining they can't do it relatively close to day one.

    They'll state "oh but I'm casual, I don't want to have to play for months to earn what regulars do in a week!" and the system fails there. I mean you can see a miniature version of this with bonus loot coins. People do not want to farm dailies for loot. They feel dailies are gating their loot (even though it's "optional" which most people deny). What makes you think they'll want to farm this? Oh and remember to take those alts into account.

    Now I understand that YOU may want this but you will not get it because the majority will whine.

  15. #635
    Quote Originally Posted by Anarchor View Post
    Small problem though ... the last patch was when? Somewhere in May? 5.3 ... what did it add? Some stuff in the barrens? That might've been material to stream for a day. There's currently pretty much 'months' of downtime in WoW even for the top raiders. But what if you're a casual? You do LFR 2-3 times and by then the shininess has worn off. For them there is even less to do.
    This is blatantly stupid. I'm not implying anything, but this argument is just hilarious.
    You're completely ignoring the fact that by the Blizzards' lastest philosophy odd patches are there to just tell the story, throw at us something small and refreshing to break the routine. They are by the definition SMALL.
    So what's there before 5.3? Ah! 5.2. What is it? Oh, a huge patch featuring a great raid instance which many enjoyed for moths, I personally wouldn't mind it lasting a while more as we're 10/13hc and closure would be nice. But hell, I'm not complaining because guess what? Another huge raid is just around the corner and it looks like it will be even better than ToT. You get some minor features too which I personally don't care much about but don't mind them neither. Something to kill and hour or two from time to time. Maybe Isle of Thunder wasn't the best design but they're learning from their mistakes and Timless Isle looks much more promising.

    Months of downtime? What would you like? A major patch every month? Every two months? How would we be supposed to enjoy the content? Have you taken the trouble to find out that 3,5% of guilds actually killed Ra-Den? And that's 3,5% out of all guilds that have killed a boss in ToT, mind you there are plenty of guilds that don't raid.
    Months of downtime EVEN for top raiders? Out of the whole playerbase I believe top raiders have the most downtime because the pace in which they consume the content is crazy so they are the ones left with "nothing" (/sarcasm off) left to do the earliest.
    Casuals have even less? I consider myself far from casual but even further from hardcore raider and as I stated before - I wouldn't mind 5.3 lasting another month or two.
    If a casual is not willing to actually play and explore the game, no wonder he is left with nothing to do.

    What would Kungen stream? Whatever he would decide to stream but there is no audience right now because guess what? If someone wanted to watch whatever they would expect Kungen to show them has already done it since 5.2 came out. WoW offers highly seasonal stream possibilities. Is it wrong? Why would it be? Every MMO is a seasonal stream material (from a PvE point of view) if you can't wrap your mind around it then I guess think again.

    You sound like you refuse to enjoy the game and are horribly disappointed that you don't have much to do.
    To be honest it looks like pretty well played troll. You're not obvious to the point of everyone just ignoring your topic yet you keep throwing this subtle, juicy pieces just enough to fuel the frustration.
    I must admit you got me there, kudos to you.
    Last edited by Hawtdawg; 2013-08-30 at 07:48 PM.

  16. #636
    Quote Originally Posted by Elegant View Post
    What you're describing is never going to happen. You're insisting that characters should be "gated" to feel a sense of progression (and you are gating by this logic don't deny it). We had that system in Vanilla and BC with attunements. Didn't go over too well. You'll have every casual complaining they can't do it relatively close to day one.

    They'll state "oh but I'm casual, I don't want to have to play for months to earn what regulars do in a week!" and the system fails there. I mean you can see a miniature version of this with bonus loot coins. People do not want to farm dailies for loot. They feel dailies are gating their loot (even though it's "optional" which most people deny). What makes you think they'll want to farm this? Oh and remember to take those alts into account.

    Now I understand that YOU may want this but you will not get it because the majority will whine.
    I have to agree with all of this, just as people gate themselves in RL, they gate themselves in game. I have friends who say they don't have time to progress or fix their toons yet they sit in vent all day bitching about how hard Tot is lol. The majority will whine if it means any effort on their part.

  17. #637
    Quote Originally Posted by Tekkommo View Post
    Yes they were, took me and my friends one clear to realise it. They were piss easy from the very start, just like the raids.
    They were aoe fests, but there were several that would cause wipes, which has never been the case with the current expansion, with perhaps the very rare exception of SPM in spots.

    Oculus, ToK, HoS, HoL, PoS, and HoR all gave people a bit of trouble for various reasons.
    Benevolence is a luxury for the strong - Wrathion
    Next time you guys log in, Blizzard should freeze your character, spawn your favourite mount and shoot it in the head. - Mormolyce

  18. #638
    Quote Originally Posted by Odina View Post
    Actually we have had quite a turnaround rate since FL but were able to find other like minded players. The amazing part is this is all on feathermoon where A) Its an RP server not really focused on pushing PVE by the vast majoritu B) there is not a huge cache of raiders to choose from hell were in a 5 way tie for 2nd place progress with only 4/13 heroic kills and the top guild with 5/13 kills isnt even on our sever anymore so you can immagine how puggin a raid spot or replacing a lost raid member can be really hard.
    Feathermoon is #38 in the US: Feathermoon Progress
    It also has 20 guilds working on heroics.

    My server, Sentinels, is #179 right now: Sentinels Progress
    We only have six guilds in heroics. Your recruitment pool is substantially larger in comparison to other servers than you give yourself credit for.

  19. #639
    Titan Kangodo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anarchor View Post
    - There is a lack of challenge
    - There is no real sense of character progression
    - There isn't a proper system in place that rewards attaining better results or putting in more effort
    -Are you raiding heroics? Wait.. ignore that! Are you raiding normals?
    Don't complain about the difficulty of ANY game when you only play easy-mode.
    -Titles, gear, achievement. What else do you want? How do other games do this 'better'?
    -If you get better, you can try Flex, normals or heroic. What do you want?

    Lack of commitment from a major part of the playerbase is perhaps one of the biggest flaws of Blizzard in the history of their game design, considering Blizzard games always used to be highly addictive and fun. But apparently Blizzard seems unable to find the right game design formula that would make casual endgame addictive... and fun.
    Most people don't want addictive gaming any more.
    The 'good old days' of "gamers are people who sit in their room for 12 hours in a row" are over nowadays.

  20. #640
    Warchief Odina's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post
    28.6% was only for that one item on that one boss. Like you said, RNG is RNG. My point was not that you should always be guaranteed drops. My point was that all these people claiming that LFR is giving the same rewards are missing out on the fact that LFR gives players a much lower drop rate than raiders in normal groups experience.
    Correct and the time invested for the rewards from LFR are less than the time invested in 10 man thus it is working as intended. Just like there is less cordination time required for 10 man raiding compared to 25 man raiding and 25 mans are rewarded with more thunderforged / warforged gear. You can still get some in 10 man just like you can still get gear in LFR but the amount that you get is much lower in concequesnce.

    All of it is working as intended in my opinion. Put more time in... get more rewards out!

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