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  1. #741
    Quote Originally Posted by Anarchor View Post
    I remember reaching L90 on my shaman alt back in WotLK. And almost a day later I managed to join a TotC pug, which ended up killing half of the bosses only a week or two after the patch had gone live.
    wut. As someone who cant commit to a raid I feel like blizzard is providing me with enough stuff to me without spoon feeding my needs.

  2. #742
    Quote Originally Posted by NeverStop View Post
    Flex has the friendships you're looking for.
    Next expansion, perhaps. But all the friends I've played with in previous expansions are gone or dispersed.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler

  3. #743
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Next expansion, perhaps. But all the friends I've played with in previous expansions are gone or dispersed.
    Make new ones?

  4. #744
    The Lightbringer judgementofantonidas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobleshield View Post
    I would consider that "isolated cliques" compared to the tens of thousands of guilds who don't raid at all, or tried to raid and failed miserably.
    i intentionally did not include the multiple thousands of guilds who have cleared at least one reg boss knowing someone would jump to your conclusion which is just wrong.

    the only thing that isolates or makes raid guilds seam cliquey are the individuals who push for a MMORPG to cater to their desire to go it alone.


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  5. #745
    Quote Originally Posted by judgementofantonidas View Post
    i intentionally did not include the multiple thousands of guilds who have cleared at least one reg boss knowing someone would jump to your conclusion which is just wrong.

    the only thing that isolates or makes raid guilds seam cliquey are the individuals who push for a MMORPG to cater to their desire to go it alone.
    With the time left of tier 15 numbered in days rather than weeks only 32610 guilds have cleared the first boss of the tier this equates to less than 20% of the Western population. Most worryingly almost 6000 guilds have given up on raiding since the end of tier 14.

  6. #746
    Immortal Arbs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    With the time left of tier 15 numbered in days rather than weeks only 32610 guilds have cleared the first boss of the tier this equates to less than 20% of the Western population. Most worryingly almost 6000 guilds have given up on raiding since the end of tier 14.
    Less guilds the better, it will sorta be like Vanilla / TBC were only a portion of guilds progressed

  7. #747
    Quote Originally Posted by Arbsbear View Post
    Less guilds the better, it will sorta be like Vanilla / TBC were only a portion of guilds progressed
    Only not really because everyone would have "progressed" in essence with LFR or Flex.

    I'd prefer guilds to have more identity but that's sort of difficult with how the guild system works.
    For instance, back in Cata there were a few guilds who's names regularly popped up because of the competition on my realm.
    Now I barely know 4 guild names on my server, they're mostly for casuals who never speak to each other or gold farming.

  8. #748
    Quote Originally Posted by Arbsbear View Post
    Less guilds the better, it will sorta be like Vanilla / TBC were only a portion of guilds progressed
    Blizzard has already said they're not interested in developing raids for some tiny fraction of the playerbase. This isn't a return to TBC, this is raiding fading into irrelevance.

  9. #749
    Blademaster IAmBizMarkie's Avatar
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    Lack of commitment from casual players? I thought that was kinda the point of being "casual". Want more? Work for it. Don't care? Don't put in the effort. Pretty simple.

  10. #750
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    The problem with playing anytime you want is that the solo playstyle is ultimately unsatisfying.

    “Friendship is the source of the greatest pleasures, and without friends even the most agreeable pursuits become tedious.” -- St. Thomas Aquinas (1225-1274)
    I have to disagree - there is no more reason to assume that solo play is more unsatisfying than group play centered solely around raiding. You only have to look at a game like Everquest, where virtually everything is next to impossible solo, to see that making too much content require a group isn't the way to reach millions of players.

    What Blizzard is deliberately overlooking is that small group content allows socialization and is far more flexible on time than raiding (even LFR). Heroic scenarios would seem to fill this role but I suspect they are mostly "successful" because they are the means by which the more hardcore players cap valor - not because they are engaging casual players in great numbers.
    Last edited by hyphnos; 2013-08-31 at 06:38 PM.

  11. #751
    Quote Originally Posted by Tekkommo View Post
    Can't believe you are still here baffling on.

    Every game at the top level requires a schedule.

    WTF do you want WoW to do with raids? If you can do them anytime you want, it is too easy, LFR for example.

    Every game at top level does not require daily "sheduling". It just requires a proper matchmaking system that puts people of similar skill and experience together. (And c'mon now... normal mode raiding can't really be considered the 'top level' either, nor can heroic mode raiding be considered that unless we're right at the start of a content patch. By design it's core content as it's the only content that gives proper character power progress).

    Blizzard should offer queuable content that ramps up in difficulty the further you go in progress, and only puts people together that already cleared the previous layers of content.

    Something along those lines is the -only- sustainable system. Without it WoW is going to become a niche game only played by a very small amount of people as time goes on and as even the newer casuals eventually feel the shine wearing off and realizing there is fuck all to do after they did LFR a few times.
    Last edited by Anarch the Subduer; 2013-08-31 at 06:46 PM.

  12. #752
    Quote Originally Posted by Anarchor View Post
    Every game at top level does not require daily "sheduling". It just requires a proper matching system that puts people of similar skill and experience together.
    Most games aren't MMO's who's strongsuit is player community.

  13. #753
    Quote Originally Posted by DrSteveBrule View Post
    Most games aren't MMO's who's strongsuit is player community.
    Neither is WoW.

    In any proper gameplay system the desire to go more professional and the option to join a more organized sheduled guild should be an interesting decision and almost organic decision, currently it comes off as forced requirement.

  14. #754
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    I think they're going to be really unhappy with how casuals are engaged with T16. "Hmm. Cleared LFR, don't have a guild left to run Flex in, don't really need gear for anything else. I know -- I'll play the FF14 reboot!" /cancelsub

    They probably should have thought more about this scenario when they tried to cram 90% of their customers into the LFR ghetto.
    Guilds are doing just fine thank you very much. Just because some realms have terrible guilds doesn't mean this is an issue for the entire player base. Again your bias towards raiding is showing.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    But you do need social interaction to make the progression meaningful. You are accumulating gear to look better in the eyes of your friends, and to support them in their goals. Otherwise, it's just "seeing the content", and that wears out rapidly.
    And what makes you think there won't be increased social interaction as a result of flex raids? Yet again your bias is showing. We get it. You hate LFR. You hate normals. You hate heroic mode. And now you hate flex. Awesome. Why are you here again?

  15. #755
    Quote Originally Posted by xanzul View Post
    And what makes you think there won't be increased social interaction as a result of flex raids? Yet again your bias is showing. We get it. You hate LFR. You hate normals. You hate heroic mode. And now you hate flex. Awesome. Why are you here again?
    What makes you think there will be increased social interaction from flex raids? Historically the WOW population has shown that players will exclude those who are not at the same level. If anything your bias is the one on show here.

  16. #756
    Over 9000! Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    What makes you think there will be increased social interaction from flex raids? Historically the WOW population has shown that players will exclude those who are not at the same level. If anything your bias is the one on show here.
    I think this is more true of the raiding community (or at least elements within the raiding community) then it is with wow in general. Or maybe it's exactly that whole ponzi gratification scheme where ego generation mandates that you look on people as beneath you. I don't know. I generally find the exclusionary attitude in raiding guilds. It's the same behaviour in high school. Whispers and officer chat on fire but everything calm on vent. Posts on the officer forums but nothing said in guild.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  17. #757
    Moderator Nobleshield's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Posokhov View Post
    There's a problem with your theory, OP.

    Paragon, vodka, and Exodus also disbanded. Only Method and Blood Legion are looking capable of world firsts this next tier. The rest of the world is going to be left in their dust.

    The game isn't losing only casual players. It is losing bleeding-edge raiders by the boatload as well.

    The only people the game is keeping right now are people who are clearing the content before the next tier, but not clearing the content in a blink.
    When did Paragon disband? I can't find anything stating that they are gone.

    Or are you one of those people who think that 10-man "isn't real raiding" and doesn't count and therefore discount Paragon because they switched to 10s?
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  18. #758
    Moderator MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobleshield View Post
    When did Paragon disband? I can't find anything stating that they are gone.

    Or are you one of those people who think that 10-man "isn't real raiding" and doesn't count and therefore discount Paragon because they switched to 10s?
    However this is answered, I would strongly advise it being answered in a way that attempts to start up the entire 10 vs. 25 and what is real raiding business. That will get infracted. The correct answer is they are both raiding and going further with it beyond that is unnecessary. If anyone disagrees you can PM me about it.


    Other than that colorful statement I have no idea at all what Paragon's status is currently.
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  19. #759
    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    What makes you think there will be increased social interaction from flex raids? Historically the WOW population has shown that players will exclude those who are not at the same level. If anything your bias is the one on show here.
    When you're all at the same level there is less drama. When you're playing a for a prize you don't want to be held back by a weak player.

    Of course when you don't need all players to have a fully formed brain to get the prize, it matters a whole lot less.
    Enter LFR.

    Fortunately (or unfortunately) that's part of Blizzard's goal. Flex raid is open for players to be carried.
    I'm more curious about what the Flex crowd will do about the size of the raid group.

    I predict most guilds and pugs will say "10man Flex" because of the time it takes to fill with more players and the percieved risks of more players having a chance of failing at mechanics.

  20. #760
    Quote Originally Posted by Anarchor View Post
    Getting access to that content, Heroic mode or even Normal implies that you can commit to a raidshedule. A large majority of casuals will not want to commit to a raidshedule. If I could commit to a raidsheduled I'd not consider myself casual anymore.
    That's a fine argument, but are you comparing MoP to earlier expansions or just criticizing WoW in general? Because before MoP, you had no choice but to commit to raid schedules if you wanted a 'challenge' or something to do end-game. Also, MoP is adding flex raids which may make this argument moot anyways.



    Quote Originally Posted by Anarchor View Post
    I guess I'm not someone that gets swayed by cosmetics because I understand that anything cosmetic ends up to collect cobwebs in the bank a few weeks later.
    For me progress is tied in with unlocking access to new content, new challenges, being made to realize you're climbing a ladder of sorts and that you're being rewarded on the way for the fact you're moving up through the content. LFR kinda just throws all the relevant (non-cosmetic) rewards at you the moment it opens up.
    Again, MoP or WoW? ... but I mean, seriously, MoP has provided more means of progression than ever before. You still have gearing/accomplishing feats in raids as well as rating in PvP, on top of things like brawler's guild or challenge modes. Have you done challenge modes yet?


    Quote Originally Posted by Anarchor View Post
    The problem? That I feel that even if I've only been subscribed for maximum up to two months this expansion, much like most of my circle of 'casual friends who play WoW', and still feel as if I've seen everything there is worth seeing or playing in the game. I've collected loot multiple times from every single LFR raidboss this expansion, got to see everything and all it took was being subscribed for a month or two over the course of a year. I'm quite certain that is a problem and considering Blizzard literally pointed out the same in their quarterly reports... it definately seems one of the main problems Blizzard became aware of too.
    Sounds to me like you're just tired/bored of WoW. If you can't commit a few nights a week to raiding (literally like 5-10 hours a week in a decent guild) then I don't know what to tell you, especially if all the other non-raiding content isn't good enough for you. You can try out flex raids which might be okay because you can probably pug them at any time for your conveinece. But it's a myth that (normal) raiding requires a huge time dedication, especially if you get into a good guild with decent people that recognize real-life commitments.

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