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  1. #761
    Quote Originally Posted by Anarchor View Post
    Every game at top level does not require daily "sheduling".
    It doesn't require it, but you can be certain that that's exactly what happens, especially at top level play.

    Blizzard should offer queuable content that ramps up in difficulty the further you go in progress, and only puts people together that already cleared the previous layers of content.
    LFR Lei Shen sort of did this, and folks simply dropped group on a large scale instead of bothering with it.

    Something along those lines is the -only- sustainable system. Without it WoW is going to become a niche game only played by a very small amount of people as time goes on
    It's a niche game to begin with, that just so happened to have lightning strike for it in terms of subs. If anything, a playerbase shrink would probably be the best thing for the game, really. Deciding to focus on a specific type of player, (whatever sort of player they wind up wanting to appeal to), would likely make for better game content than the 'try to please everyone' angle that's being played now.
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  2. #762
    Moderator MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    Deciding to focus on a specific type of player, (whatever sort of player they wind up wanting to appeal to), would likely make for better game content than the 'try to please everyone' angle that's being played now.
    At the extreme end of that idea is dumping 'raiding' altogether and putting all of that into dungeons. Break apart the MoP raids into single- or multiple-wing dungeons of various difficulty levels and you've got something like two or three dozen dungeons which could be arranged in a sort of progressive set and played that way.

    I'm absolutely not saying that should happen since I tend to think that would simply accelerate the rate at which everyone sees everything but I'm sure someone would find that sort of thing preferable to what there is now.
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  3. #763
    Quote Originally Posted by Elegant View Post
    LFR cannot ever be considered end-game I personally do not care if that's as far as you've gotten or as far as you will ever get. End-game implies some kind of difficulty measurable by time spent.
    Of course it's end game. It's raid content, which is, by definition, end game. You're free to have your own definition, but I disagree with the one you've stated.
    Stating an opinion as fact does not make it fact. Opinions are not fact. So don't be stupid and make a fool of yourself by trying to pass off your opinion as fact.

  4. #764
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    At the extreme end of that idea is dumping 'raiding' altogether and putting all of that into dungeons. Break apart the MoP raids into single- or multiple-wing dungeons of various difficulty levels and you've got something like two or three dozen dungeons which could be arranged in a sort of progressive set and played that way.

    I'm absolutely not saying that should happen since I tend to think that would simply accelerate the rate at which everyone sees everything but I'm sure someone would find that sort of thing preferable to what there is now.
    "Various difficulty levels."

    That doesn't exactly follow the idea of focusing on a player type.
    Unless you mean each dungeon having a ramp up difficulty with each succeding dungeon (which should probably already exist).

    I think if we can all agree on something it's that doing the same content on a different difficulty isn't attractive.

  5. #765
    Quote Originally Posted by JimPaladin View Post
    I was going to make a post, but then I saw your signature and avatar and I can't stop laughing.
    Was does the Vlad avatar have to do with anything? lol

  6. #766
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    At the extreme end of that idea is dumping 'raiding' altogether and putting all of that into dungeons. Break apart the MoP raids into single- or multiple-wing dungeons of various difficulty levels and you've got something like two or three dozen dungeons which could be arranged in a sort of progressive set and played that way.

    I'm absolutely not saying that should happen since I tend to think that would simply accelerate the rate at which everyone sees everything but I'm sure someone would find that sort of thing preferable to what there is now.
    If they broke it up into pieces, and allowed you to queue for a campaign of the plot series for the whole dungeon I think it would be the best of both worlds. Essentially, you'd queue for a spot in all the dungeons and you would retain your spot in the queue for each dungeon while you are raiding the previous ones. It would be a good deal I think. Heck, they could even use their flex scaling to allow for more sizes of the same dungeon, making the dps choke a little less painful.

  7. #767
    The Lightbringer Kouki's Avatar
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    They Cant compete with Games like Guild wars 2, and are focused more on other games and the next expansion.

    Consider guild wars 2, it has 2 weeks between each patch, in the 1 year its been online it has added more content than all of wow's expansions.
    -Scrapbot stole my sig-

  8. #768
    Moderator MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrSteveBrule View Post
    I think if we can all agree on something it's that doing the same content on a different difficulty isn't attractive.
    Can we? On this subject you believe there's unanimity among all players? We've had at least two levels of difficulty in raiding for many years now, often more than that if you consider pre- and post-nerf as a change in difficulty*. Different difficulty levels in video games has been a staple across the genre since forever and not controversial in the least.

    And to calm your mind the player type I'm thinking of is the one that prefers dungeons over raids. I think there are still a few of those around.

    *Nerfs that have been consistently missing from MoP and probably even more distant now with the advent of flex.
    Last edited by MoanaLisa; 2013-09-01 at 06:52 AM.
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  9. #769
    Banned True Anarch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    At the extreme end of that idea is dumping 'raiding' altogether and putting all of that into dungeons. Break apart the MoP raids into single- or multiple-wing dungeons of various difficulty levels and you've got something like two or three dozen dungeons which could be arranged in a sort of progressive set and played that way.
    Exactly.

    And that is exactly the type of content that is missing for people who are looking for a challenge, want to feel like they're making meaningful progress in 'core content' of the game, but don't want to commit to a raidshedule. This way people have the freedom to queue for that type of content whenever they feel like it, can spend hours on trying to beat the next boss if they have the time, meet people naturally with which they work well together and improve their friendslist etc.

    I really believe that such a system is the future for popular MMO games.

    People don't seem to understand that the whole 'commiting to a raidshedule' thing is just ... not feasible or attractive for a too big majority of gamers today.

  10. #770
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    At the extreme end of that idea is dumping 'raiding' altogether and putting all of that into dungeons. Break apart the MoP raids into single- or multiple-wing dungeons of various difficulty levels and you've got something like two or three dozen dungeons which could be arranged in a sort of progressive set and played that way.

    I'm absolutely not saying that should happen since I tend to think that would simply accelerate the rate at which everyone sees everything but I'm sure someone would find that sort of thing preferable to what there is now.
    It is vastly preferable even at the accelerated rate. The developers however see fit to keep raiding as the premier (and ultimately only serious) content this game has to offer. They saved raiding potentially at the cost of the game.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  11. #771
    The Lightbringer judgementofantonidas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anarchor View Post


    It just requires a proper matchmaking system that puts people of similar skill and experience together.).

    Blizzard should offer queuable content that ramps up in difficulty the further you go in progress, and only puts people together that already cleared the previous layers of content.

    .
    ok. I'll bite. so you would be ok with a system that NEVER put hard core raiders in your LFR? you would be ok with getting stuck playing with others at YOUR skill level without the unquestionable help that real raiders provide when they are looking for a quick valor cap via LFR?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Anarchor View Post
    Exactly.

    And that is exactly the type of content that is missing for people who are looking for a challenge, want to feel like they're making meaningful progress in 'core content' of the game, but don't want to commit to a raidshedule. This way people have the freedom to queue for that type of content whenever they feel like it, can spend hours on trying to beat the next boss if they have the time, meet people naturally with which they work well together and improve their friendslist etc.

    I really believe that such a system is the future for popular MMO games.

    People don't seem to understand that the whole 'commiting to a raidshedule' thing is just ... not feasible or attractive for a too big majority of gamers today.
    you know. i would love to watch your idea of how raiding should be. i would love to see any number of raid wall bosses AT their intended difficulty only queable by players who have not defeated them and only have an hour to try and learn them. matter of fact lets limit the amount of tries in your queable fantasy land to one hour. that way aaaaaaalll these players who do not have time for "organized" raiding won't violate their need to be elsewhere. Don't beat the boss, punted from the server. Come back next time you only have an hour.





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  12. #772
    Quote Originally Posted by judgementofantonidas View Post
    ok. I'll bite. so you would be ok with a system that NEVER put hard core raiders in your LFR? you would be ok with getting stuck playing with others at YOUR skill level without the unquestionable help that real raiders provide when they are looking for a quick valor cap via LFR?
    I think many players would be perfectly happy with this I feel that the only ones who would not be are the "real raiders" who would have the illusion that players cannot complete anything without their help shattered.

  13. #773
    Get off the forums and go do some challenge modes. that may change your mind.

  14. #774
    Quote Originally Posted by Anarchor View Post
    I'm going to very quickly sum up why MoP's PvE endgame is unable to keep casual players commited to the game:

    - There is a lack of challenge
    Challenge Modes, Heroic Raids, Final Pet Battles (Without a guide)

    - There is no real sense of character progression
    How? Is casual's ilevel capped at 478 or something? Heroics --> LFR --> Normals --> HC Raids. Valor Upgrades.
    - There isn't a proper system in place that rewards attaining better results or putting in more effort
    LFR vs Normal vs Heroic, Challenge Modes (Cool looking gear and a mount)

  15. #775
    Quote Originally Posted by Dingolicious View Post
    How? Is casual's ilevel capped at 478 or something? Heroics --> LFR --> Normals --> HC Raids. Valor Upgrades.
    The reality is that most players stop at LFR the rewards in place for normals and above are simply not worth the increased hassle of fitting around the schedule of 9 or 24 others or putting up with repeated wipes due to the jump in difficulty.

  16. #776
    Over 9000! Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    The reality is that most players stop at LFR the rewards in place for normals and above are simply not worth the increased hassle of fitting around the schedule of 9 or 24 others or putting up with repeated wipes due to the jump in difficulty.
    And really raiding in any scenario (HM or LFR) is really the LEAST casual friendly activity in the game. They tried to make it more appealing to casual players but I don't think it worked out as well as they planned.

    Until theirs an alternative form of advancement in the game that is actually casual friendly (and as rewarding or more rewarding than raiding) then your gonna continue to have casuals leave.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  17. #777
    Quote Originally Posted by judgementofantonidas View Post
    you know. i would love to watch your idea of how raiding should be. i would love to see any number of raid wall bosses AT their intended difficulty only queable by players who have not defeated them and only have an hour to try and learn them. matter of fact lets limit the amount of tries in your queable fantasy land to one hour. that way aaaaaaalll these players who do not have time for "organized" raiding won't violate their need to be elsewhere. Don't beat the boss, punted from the server. Come back next time you only have an hour.
    That sounds pretty fun, though they'd need to restrict the amount of time it was available to encourage people to queue at the same time. Particularly as number dwindled.

  18. #778
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    And really raiding in any scenario (HM or LFR) is really the LEAST casual friendly activity in the game. They tried to make it more appealing to casual players but I don't think it worked out as well as they planned.

    Until theirs an alternative form of advancement in the game that is actually casual friendly (and as rewarding or more rewarding than raiding) then your gonna continue to have casuals leave.
    I do not understand why Blizzard have decided to push raiding at the expense of other content. I have a feeling that they view raid finder as a tremendous success and in fairness it is a great tool to have available to us but I cannot help but feel that part of its success is due to the lack of alternatives.

  19. #779
    High Overlord Yuna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    I think many players would be perfectly happy with this I feel that the only ones who would not be are the "real raiders" who would have the illusion that players cannot complete anything without their help shattered.
    Oh really? Before they nerfed some bosses in LFR, raiders were always welcome to help out, because either 50% of the lfr folks are afk, forget that fire is still hot, think that agility is a good stat for mistweaver monks or do not know that shift+j opens the encounter journal which explains almost everything you need to know to be successfull, or are just to lazy to even try.

    They do not need to actualy participate and still get rewards, which is the major flaw of the lfr system. There is no negative impact for failing, because nobody cares, the bosses even get easier with each wipe.

    And yes, most players that i have met in lfr cannot complete anything without help of others and iam going so far to say that most lfr groups would not have finished their "wing" without the help of some "overgeared illusionists who know what to do", because they would have wiped 3-4 times and abandoned the group instead of trying again and again (see garalon, windlord, amber shaper, durumu, animus, lei shen before they got nerfed in lfr).

  20. #780
    Herald of the Titans miffy23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kouki View Post
    They Cant compete with Games like Guild wars 2, and are focused more on other games and the next expansion.

    Consider guild wars 2, it has 2 weeks between each patch, in the 1 year its been online it has added more content than all of wow's expansions.
    Yeah sorry that's nonsense. Gw2 is a great game but that statement is just absolute fanboy nonsense on so many levels and just plain false.

    I'm gonna pop in here again but I simply can't believe why so many keep feeding this thread. Either you're not reading through it at all, or you're not getting what the OP is saying. Because I think it's ridiculous.

    To sum it up, the OP is complaining that WoW is too easy, and wants the hardest content in the game available in a matchmaking system, dropping the entire organization for raiding and the social aspect. Basically, LFR throughout all difficulties.

    Here's why that is the most idiotic notion I've come across since MoP release:
    Firstly WoW is a social game. At it's very core, the reason why people stick with the game and their guilds is for the connections they've made and experiences they've shared in the game. There's always a large part of single player experience as well, but the most important factor binding the majority of guilds together is cooperative gameplay ie PVP or raiding. While there may have been a handful of people that made some friends via LFR, the majority finds the social experience of it to be overwhelmingly negative, because when u don't need to fear any kind of social repercussion, people behave like dicks. And so you get often unbearable LFRs. So you want this to take over for every aspect of raiding? Yuck.

    Apart from that, let's look at the realistic part of that - you want the hardest content in the game, that requires meticulous preparation and knowledge of the encounter, as well as certain minimal gear value and control of your class, to be available for everyone in a matchmaking system. As someone else stated before - try throwing everyone at one of those lovely fights and see how many stick with it after a few wipes. And there will be many. Even at well organized and prepared levels, with amazing players, you will have tons and tons of wipes on progress fights. Why? Guess what, because it's hard. Translating that to a system where everyone just wants that quick raid fight and success, like you, is simply an impossibility, apart from the fact that you'll get a complete lack of leadership and a certain toxic atmosphere on top of that.

    If you were truly such a raid veteran you would know how idiotic this idea is. All I get from your posts is that you are incredibly annoyed that you can't raid at the best level, whether that be due to time constraints or skill constraints (oh btw - "world #1-3 guild from vanilla to wotlk". So you were in D+T, Nihilum, Curse, then Ensidia? mhmmm...), and like many people newer to the game you can't overcome the gap from queueing for LFR to actually engaging in a community and playing at a different level. Which is probably an issue, I agree. But in no world does that justify your suggestion.

    Your statements are simply wrong in so many aspects and countless in the thread have told you why. I'll sum it up again: the challenges in the game are there, and they are frankly much easier to access than they were in "the good old times" of Vanilla/TBC/Wrath. Want the hardest 5 man content imaginable possibly since trying TBC heroics in green/blues? Go for challenge mode. Want ever tougher and more complex raid encounters that still manage to somehow add original mechanics after all this time? Go for a heroic raiding guild. Heroic raiding has reached new hights each expansion in terms of complexity, and this tier especially has put an extra emphasis on individual responsibility in mechanics, making it one of the toughest yet on nomal too. While you may remember some old raids fondly for the time needed to clear them, this was mostly due to horrible gating and itemization. The mechanics were laughably simple in comparison.

    Back then, time = success, within reason. Now, skill = success. I know so many players that log on for the few raids per week they sign up for, and they are perfectly happy with that because it gives them what they want. I don't know where your very subjective perception of not wanting a raid schedule applies to the rest of the raiding community, who in fact to a large degree wants more gating and grinding time investments for success back, as you can see in so many clamoring for TBC/Wrath-like circumstances. Your suggestion would likely drive many away from MMO raiding and make it a mindless, anonymous dystopian affair.

    In your world, you hop in a matched up raid to wipe for a few hours with people screaming at each other and quitting the group, while you hang on twitter or watch a LoL-stream or whatever, so you can get your achievement at some point and be done with it. You've sadly misunderstood the whole point of the game, in my opinion.

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