Page 41 of 42 FirstFirst ...
31
39
40
41
42
LastLast
  1. #801
    Pit Lord Odina's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Montreal, Quebec, Canada
    Posts
    2,262
    Quote Originally Posted by hrugner View Post
    Correct it isn't anything new. Which isn't an important distinction since it's a common concern of the casual player, which is what's being talked about here. The question "why MoP's pve endgame can't keep casual players interested" is the one put forward.

    The solution could well be that:

    1. casual players are those that don't want to schedule play time
    2. raiding is only interesting when it's focused around organized groups, which includes scheduling
    3. mop's end game is very focused around raiding
    therefore

    mop's endgame is very focused around not casual players.

    - - - Updated - - -



    That's what I assumed, though I thought it started at normal difficulty. Like I said though, these seems to be a better fit for guilds with irregular raid groups than for casual players themselves.

    I think it's a good addition though, shame that it isn't at least normal difficulty.
    The thing is that this isnt a MOP thing if anything there is more to do now than ever when more casual! The issue is that many are looking at raiding as the ONLY option they have. As such they are choosing a specific part of the game (PVE) and then they are picking the top part of PVE (raiding) and then saying they want to compeete at a competitive level without organisation.

    It's like myself signing up to a cosom hockey legue without a team and selecting the shinny group for throw togethere games as I can't commit to a scheduel. Then commin in and saying it's stupid the legue puts so much focus on there team legue with stats, and playoffs, and a trophy etc and wondering why they don't do the same for the shinny guys even though you can't really do that without an organised team.

    But people see video game and automatically toos out any common sense when it comes to organised team liesure aspects! Shiny guy is paying his 100$ a season as well but realizes he can't commit to full time and as such does not get fulltime perks!

  2. #802
    Herald of the Titans miffy23's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Vienna
    Posts
    2,570
    You're asking for the impossible, frankly.
    The hardest content is not MEANT to be doable immediately, without preparation, without teamwork. That's not how it works.

    It's sad for you guys that you can't get what you want from the game, but that doesn't mean the game should cater to you.

    As allegedly former high end raiders you guys should know what kind of time investment and team focus goes into clearing that kind of content. Expecting to have some matchmaking system for that so you can still get the phattest loots without all that annoying social commitment is just delusional, in my opinion.

    And frankly, I wouldn't want it that way.

  3. #803
    Warchief Akraen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    SC, USA
    Posts
    2,130
    I think there's merit in saying that there's no real middle ground between LFR being absurdly fall-over stupid no challenge easy... which devs acknowledge, and heroic content being tuned for the stupidly obsessed... which devs acknowledge.

    They're addressing this with flex, and normal has a bit of a notch on the scale too... which devs acknowledge.

    The problem is the incentive scheme. A casual won't deem it necessary to do more. But this is the new style of MMORPG. The RPG element is gone. It's MMOLPG: Ladder Progression Game.

    There should be progression paths like long rep grinds (with menial rewards), vanity stuff, quests like the dungeon tier 0.5 from vanilla, etc. Path of the Titans would be a neat concept. Removing talents for glyph-like nonsense is a problem too.

    But what can you do. The RPG element has been dying since patch 2.0.

  4. #804
    Quote Originally Posted by mmotroof View Post
    he pities you for your shame

    casuals didn't quit, that's what is left these days, casuals
    And the funny thing is they don't even realize they're casuals. "I'm 13/13 HC and spend like 6 hours per week in game! I'm so hardcore!"

  5. #805
    its not MoPs endgame that cant keep me interested and I consider(ed) myself a casual player apart from when I raided 3 nights a week when I used to do all Heroic modes as hardcore yea man). I just hate MoP in general and nothing about it appeals to me in the slightest.. I hate all the Asian theme, the music, the new baddies etc its all just dire and where as before thru TBC and WotLK (and to some point Cata) I couldn't keep away cos it was so exciting and enjoyable. nothing about MoP interests me or gives me the buzz that xpacs before it gave me....

    im quite happily sitting this xpac out now and waiting for the next and although I miss playing I don't miss MoP at all if ya know what I mean
    (although I wasn't happy to stop playing at the start cos I love wow so much lol but I finally give in and im just letting this xpac float by me without care)......

  6. #806
    Quote Originally Posted by Odina View Post
    The thing is that this isnt a MOP thing if anything there is more to do now than ever when more casual! The issue is that many are looking at raiding as the ONLY option they have. As such they are choosing a specific part of the game (PVE) and then they are picking the top part of PVE (raiding) and then saying they want to compeete at a competitive level without organisation.
    Maybe because everything outside raids is massively inferior (if not outright broken) to raids in all aspects?
    It's like myself signing up to a cosom hockey legue without a team and selecting the shinny group for throw togethere games as I can't commit to a scheduel. Then commin in and saying it's stupid the legue puts so much focus on there team legue with stats, and playoffs, and a trophy etc and wondering why they don't do the same for the shinny guys even though you can't really do that without an organised team.
    So... comparing professional and semi-professional sport activities which people are doing for living, with video game... I won't comment further, or I might get infraction. I also hope that English isn't your native language.

  7. #807
    Pit Lord Odina's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Montreal, Quebec, Canada
    Posts
    2,262
    Quote Originally Posted by Ferocity View Post
    Maybe because everything outside raids is massively inferior (if not outright broken) to raids in all aspects?

    So... comparing professional and semi-professional sport activities which people are doing for living, with video game... I won't comment further, or I might get infraction. I also hope that English isn't your native language.
    Do people play videogames for a living? is there not a pro videogame legue where poeple do this? Pretty sure there are people getting paid to play this game just like people get paid to play other liesure activities!

    http://www.businessinsider.com/the-h...rs-2013-7?op=1



    As for my language just look at my location and put one and one togethere!

  8. #808
    Quote Originally Posted by Odina View Post
    Do people play videogames for a living? is there not a pro videogame legue where poeple do this? Pretty sure there are people getting paid to play this game just like people get paid to play other liesure activities!

    http://www.businessinsider.com/the-h...rs-2013-7?op=1
    Well, perhaps we live in different worlds. Where I live, people pay to play games. Sure, there is a lot of RMT and other weird stuff going on in WoW, however it doesn't make it a legitimate way of getting money for a living. In fact, it is frown upon by most other people. And as such, playing video games can't be compared to any activity, where people legitimately make for a living from it.

  9. #809
    Scarab Lord
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Liverpool, Merseyside
    Posts
    4,649
    Quote Originally Posted by oplawlz View Post
    And the funny thing is they don't even realize they're casuals. "I'm 13/13 HC and spend like 6 hours per week in game! I'm so hardcore!"
    When did the words casual and hardcore become positive and negative.

    The fact that they're used as insults really confuses me.

  10. #810
    Titan Kelimbror's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Bear Taco, Left Hand of Death
    Posts
    14,274
    Quote Originally Posted by wych View Post
    When did the words casual and hardcore become positive and negative.
    About 8 years ago.
    BAD WOLF

  11. #811
    Pit Lord Odina's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Montreal, Quebec, Canada
    Posts
    2,262
    Quote Originally Posted by Ferocity View Post
    Well, perhaps we live in different worlds. Where I live, people pay to play games. Sure, there is a lot of RMT and other weird stuff going on in WoW, however it doesn't make it a legitimate way of getting money for a living. In fact, it is frown upon by most other people. And as such, playing video games can't be compared to any activity, where people legitimately make for a living from it.
    Allot of peopel PAY to play hockey here in Quebec and the chances of making it to the NHL are slim to none for most people that play. However people still on rare occasions make it and get paid for it but it doesnt make it a legitimate plan of getting money either.

    I fail to see how you can say "leisure activity A is not a legitamate way to make money but leisure activity B is" when they are both leisure activities! You can experience them both in the most casual ways (see the monday night legue I'm in) by paying money to compeete in them and then depending on the time you are willing to invest in the liesure activity you will get more or less out of it! See Guys in the A pool with stats trophy playoffs etc VS guys in the D pool that are pickup games only with nothing more than the fun of playing. Both pay there 100$ to play the season but they both don't get the same out of it due to a variable comitment time.... see the similarity to WOW now?

    This goes back tothe OP as they woudl like to experience the activity at POOL A level while putting in the time and cordination of Pool D.
    Last edited by Odina; 2013-09-03 at 07:00 PM.

  12. #812
    First of all, Hi!
    Sorry if this was mentioned earlier in this thread. But imo, challenge modes and Brawler's do provide challenge, character progression and both of em' does reward your character if completed.

  13. #813
    Moderator MoanaLisa's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Welcome to the Metachronopolis!
    Posts
    12,042
    Quote Originally Posted by hrugner View Post
    That's what I assumed, though I thought it started at normal difficulty. Like I said though, these seems to be a better fit for guilds with irregular raid groups than for casual players themselves.

    I think it's a good addition though, shame that it isn't at least normal difficulty.
    It may well be some day. I can understand when introducing something this different that they would not want to put it into normal raiding without going through a very long solid live beta to see how it works.

    The specified difficulty level (10-man Wrath is the example they used) is a good one to have in the game. And supposedly all of the mechanics of normal are there so you can scope them out in advance, something you can't always do really in LFR.

    I imagine that when they feel it's really solid they will set it up for normal. But suffice to say that if there are any bugs in it that would seriously affect normal progression they'd want to get them out before they go there. So the short of it is that the initial implementation of flex is basically a live beta (of sorts).

    No one is actually going to say that of course. They'll say they'll iterate on it. But with something new that scales and potentially involves 10 to 25 players, that's what it is.
    If you have anything to contribute to a thread topic, please do so. Discussing moderation or calling out specific people is against the rules and makes a post liable for an infraction. Please report problem posts. If anyone is unclear about the rules please read our FAQ. Thanks.

    It's a magical world, Hobbes, ol' buddy...let's go exploring!

  14. #814
    Quote Originally Posted by hyphnos View Post
    The problem with what you're suggesting is very similar to the problem the game has now, which is that the rewards given for participating in the game are not equal and are also the tools used to PLAY the game.

    Think about it. What if there were special shoes that made you jump higher, but only NBA players could get them. Golf clubs and balls that hit the ball further and straighter, but you had to win on the PGA tour to get them.

    If you put the best tools for playing behind a game behind a series of ever more difficult task to get to those tools then the 5, 10, 25, 50% or whatever of players who can get to the better tools will be the players you have to tune the NEXT set of tasks around which will just decrease the potential number of participants. You see it now in raiding even with ilvl bumps on easy mode. The fact that raiders and heroic raiders exist made Blizzard tune heroic scenarios in such a way that at a 490 ilvl they are very challenging so they can be somewhat challenging for a raider wearing 535. Now look at your audience and think, who has the skill to do content with less powerful gear - the player with the best gear in the game. So by giving superior rewards to the better players it removes challenge for them and increases the challenge for a less skilled player possibly past the point of their not being able to do it at all.

    Depriving the least skilled players of any game of the tools needed to play the game will result in fewer players, especially when you offer little interesting content for those players and shove them into one type (like Blizzard does now with raiding).
    I'm surprised that this doesn't come up more often, because it is absolutely true. Of course if you're decked out in 530+ gear you can go into MV LFR, ignore all mechanics, and auto-attack while maintaining a respectable standing in the charts. It's not so easy as a brand spanking new level 90 grouped with others at your level. I have wiped many a time in LFR. Contrary to what many commonly state, you can't AFK your way to loot in LFR in a timely fashion. The people making this claim are often already decked out in normal raid gear and really have nothing to gain from LFR aside from supplementary valor anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by Odina View Post
    Do people play videogames for a living? is there not a pro videogame legue where poeple do this? Pretty sure there are people getting paid to play this game just like people get paid to play other liesure activities!

    http://www.businessinsider.com/the-h...rs-2013-7?op=1
    All those people made money from playing RTS tournaments. WoW is not a RTS game. Watching Method take down a completely predictable boss that performs the same attacks in the same order in response to the same triggers time and again is about as exciting as watching paint dry. Watching two pro RTS gamers go head to head is a very different story because no two matches are ever the same. PvP is inherently unpredictable. If you really think you can make a living playing WoW, I advise you to consider a day job to pay your bills. The only people making money off of WoW are the game journalists who comment on it and/or make machinima based on it.

  15. #815
    Pit Lord Odina's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Montreal, Quebec, Canada
    Posts
    2,262
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post
    All those people made money from playing RTS tournaments. WoW is not a RTS game. Watching Method take down a completely predictable boss that performs the same attacks in the same order in response to the same triggers time and again is about as exciting as watching paint dry. Watching two pro RTS gamers go head to head is a very different story because no two matches are ever the same. PvP is inherently unpredictable. If you really think you can make a living playing WoW, I advise you to consider a day job to pay your bills. The only people making money off of WoW are the game journalists who comment on it and/or make machinima based on it.
    It ws not a comment specific about wow but rather videogames in general as a liesure activity compared to other liesure activities. As well there is pvp in wow...though it fell off the esport radar and is basically crappy there still is some exciting pvp in WOW... the arena tourny come blizzcon will draw allot of people to watch it!

  16. #816
    Quote Originally Posted by Odina View Post
    It ws not a comment specific about wow but rather videogames in general as a liesure activity compared to other liesure activities. As well there is pvp in wow...though it fell off the esport radar and is basically crappy there still is some exciting pvp in WOW... the arena tourny come blizzcon will draw allot of people to watch it!
    WoW PvP is more exciting to watch than WoW PvE, but even that falls short because most of the action isn't readily visible to the untrained observer. When you see a Zerg rush in Starcraft and the announcer identifies it as such you can clearly understand what happened. When announcers talk about build order you can watch it unfold and understand how it would matter even though you have never played Starcraft before. Players' strategies unfold and mutate as the game progresses, and observers have minutes to process and understand them. In contrast, WoW PvP is all about keeping the other player CCed and/or interrupted while dealing as much damage to them as possible. Most of the work happens on the keyboard rather than on the screen. Unless the announcer is very experienced with both classes they can't even tell what just happened most the time. A novice observer would have no idea what's happening in a match between two pro WoW PvPers. WoW PvP was not designed as a spectator sport the way that Starcraft was. That's why you'll never see WoW become a tournament sport with substantial prizes.

    I keep specifically addressing WoW because this thread is about the WoW endgame's inability to keep casual players interested. The idea of pro gaming as a lure was introduced in the context of the WoW end game. The point I'm making is that it's not a viable lure. If this were a thread about SC2 PvP I would entertain your notion of professional gaming as an enticement for casual players, but this thread is specifically about WoW.

  17. #817
    Herald of the Titans miffy23's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Vienna
    Posts
    2,570
    "Raid content is really intended to be progressed through by building a competent team of people, in appropriate leveled gear, that work together to solve difficult challenges through expert knowledge - and execution of - within the game. Some people don't have time for that, they can't commit to a raid schedule (although both those groups should be looking toward Flex as it is very much for them!), just want to see the content, aren't very good at the game, or just aren't playing to be in a social situation, and want to run LFR, and we think that's great, and it's great LFR is right up their alley and let's them see the content, it is there for those reasons, but that doesn't mean that it should be available and allow access to content many weeks faster than is intended through progression raiding."

    Blues say it so much better.
    Don't expect raid content to be tailored to you if you can't engage in the social and time investment aspect of the game. End of story.

  18. #818
    Immortal True Anarch's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Shadowlag Valley
    Posts
    7,613
    Quote Originally Posted by miffy23 View Post
    "Raid content is really intended to be progressed through by building a competent team of people, in appropriate leveled gear, that work together to solve difficult challenges through expert knowledge - and execution of - within the game. Some people don't have time for that, they can't commit to a raid schedule (although both those groups should be looking toward Flex as it is very much for them!), just want to see the content, aren't very good at the game, or just aren't playing to be in a social situation, and want to run LFR, and we think that's great, and it's great LFR is right up their alley and let's them see the content, it is there for those reasons, but that doesn't mean that it should be available and allow access to content many weeks faster than is intended through progression raiding."

    Blues say it so much better.
    Don't expect raid content to be tailored to you if you can't engage in the social and time investment aspect of the game. End of story.
    I appreciate that Blizzard understands that Flex raiding had quite a demand and Flex raiding definitely is a big step in the right direction. We'll just have to see exactly how viable, challenging and rewarding flexi-pugging will be like first before I can make any judgements on wether it'll be good enough or not.

    It's also good to know that Blizzard understands there might be people out there who might play a dozen hours every day but not necessarily might be interested in joining organized groups or commiting to shedules. Knowing that they are aware of these types of players is also a comfort and might, hopefully, mean they'll eventually get some more content offered specifically for them.
    Freedom without Socialism = Plutocracy
    Socialism without Freedom = Tyranny

  19. #819
    Quote Originally Posted by miffy23 View Post
    "Raid content is really intended to be progressed through by building a competent team of people, in appropriate leveled gear, that work together to solve difficult challenges through expert knowledge - and execution of - within the game. [...]"
    They must have been dismayed by the low and declining participation in "raiding as intended", then.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler
    I hate these casual Fridays ruining it for real Fridays.

  20. #820
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    They must have been dismayed by the low and declining participation in "raiding as intended", then.
    I doubt they were dismayed. I think they wanted to prove a point to the playerbase via data. A huge portion of the playerbase does not really want to build a team of competent people, in appropriate level gear, to work together to solve difficult challenges. Blizzard knew this (which is why they created LFR).

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •