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  1. #781
    Moderator Nobleshield's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anarchor View Post
    Exactly.

    And that is exactly the type of content that is missing for people who are looking for a challenge, want to feel like they're making meaningful progress in 'core content' of the game, but don't want to commit to a raidshedule. This way people have the freedom to queue for that type of content whenever they feel like it, can spend hours on trying to beat the next boss if they have the time, meet people naturally with which they work well together and improve their friendslist etc.

    I really believe that such a system is the future for popular MMO games.

    People don't seem to understand that the whole 'commiting to a raidshedule' thing is just ... not feasible or attractive for a too big majority of gamers today.
    I don't think that queuing is the solution, but I agree that the future of MMOs is going to be on small group content. I keep harping on these elsewhere but the future is the idea of the "Nightmare" dungeon, and not the raid, as the primary endgame. Your nightmare dungeons can be challenging, but because it's small group content it's much easier to find people and you can do things with your close friends, as many people in this game play with a small circle of friends and then have to expand to be able to raid outside of LFR. This is the future. Raids won't go away entirely, of course, but they won't be nearly as large or as challenging as they are now; I envision a game where you have three kinds of dungeons:

    * Normal dungeons (as they are now)
    * Heroic dungeons (as they are now; meant as the first step of gearing up)
    * Nightmare dungeons (as hard as Challenge Modes are, without any of the timing/leaderboards/scaling, that drop epic loot and/or points and tokens to buy epic loot)

    But wait, you say: That's just trading raids for dungeons, and you have three versions of the same dungeon now instead. True, although I imagine there would be certain Nightmare-only dungeons in this situation, and a 4-5 boss dungeon is infinitely better to do on different modes than a 12 boss raid.

    In this sort of game, your raids would still exist but they would be much closer to raids like Onyxia, Obsidium Sanctum, Throne of the Four Winds (minus the BS random loot, of course) and the world bosses than your huge Molten Core or Ulduar style raids. Raids become supplemental, dropping loot that's the same level as the Nightmare dungeons.

    The key in this sort of system is to limit gear inflation, so everyone is always kept roughly around the same overall level, with the better players having more of the high-end gear at any given time. So for your "tiers" you either add in different currency (similar to the old badge system in Wrath), and you can add in additional Nightmare dungeons (T2 dungeons or whatever) but provide a reason to continue to run the original ones as well. Raids are few and far between, and are always parallel to the current Nightmare dungeons, instead of being on a curve at the top.
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  2. #782
    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    The reality is that most players stop at LFR the rewards in place for normals and above are simply not worth the increased hassle of fitting around the schedule of 9 or 24 others or putting up with repeated wipes due to the jump in difficulty.
    Please don't mix casual players with "bad players" (which is what you're arguing). I play WoW maybe 7 hours a week and I have 3 characters all with 540+ gear.

  3. #783
    Quote Originally Posted by Yuna View Post
    Oh really? Before they nerfed some bosses in LFR, raiders were always welcome to help out, because either 50% of the lfr folks are afk, forget that fire is still hot, think that agility is a good stat for mistweaver monks or do not know that shift+j opens the encounter journal which explains almost everything you need to know to be successfull, or are just to lazy to even try.

    They do not need to actualy participate and still get rewards, which is the major flaw of the lfr system. There is no negative impact for failing, because nobody cares, the bosses even get easier with each wipe.

    And yes, most players that i have met in lfr cannot complete anything without help of others and iam going so far to say that most lfr groups would not have finished their "wing" without the help of some "overgeared illusionists who know what to do", because they would have wiped 3-4 times and abandoned the group instead of trying again and again (see garalon, windlord, amber shaper, durumu, animus, lei shen before they got nerfed in lfr).
    Yes really. I have been in plenty of groups that have made it through raid finder without help. It is simply not true that half the players are afk and in my experience those that are are usually swiftly kicked.

    Stating that you do not need to participate to receive rewards or there is no negative impact for failing is yet more nonsense. If the group fails it takes longer to complete the raid when one of the main reasons for the popularity of LFR is that you do not need to spend a lot time completing it compared to normal or heroic raiding this is a major draw back.

    Judging by your post I am not surprised that most players that you met need help. My experience of LFR is that it is full of players with varying levels of ability and for the most part every group manages to complete each wing without issue. If groups cannot complete certain bosses Blizzard will nerf them there is no need for help from over geared raiders.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Floopa View Post
    Please don't mix casual players with "bad players" (which is what you're arguing). I play WoW maybe 7 hours a week and I have 3 characters all with 540+ gear.
    I made no mention of "casuals" the fact of the matter is that somewhere in the region of 80% players have not killed the first boss of this tier and have no intention of doing so.

  4. #784
    Quote Originally Posted by Floopa View Post
    Please don't mix casual players with "bad players" (which is what you're arguing). I play WoW maybe 7 hours a week and I have 3 characters all with 540+ gear.
    Heroic raiding (to get 540+) required way more than 7 hours a week. Sure, farm months are awesome. It's the time commitment before it goes on farm that separates casuals from raiders.

    OT: You either have the time to commit or you don't. This is an MMO and, shockingly, there are activities that require the presence and organization of some of those other people. Not your flavor? Move on.

  5. #785
    The Lightbringer judgementofantonidas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    The reality is that most players stop at LFR the rewards in place for normals and above are simply not worth the increased hassle of fitting around the schedule of 9 or 24 others or putting up with repeated wipes due to the jump in difficulty.

    ok. cool. easy fix. increase the ilvl cap between lfr, normal, and heroic and remove RAIDING bonus gear from LFR. Then there is an incentive to move forward.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hrugner View Post
    That sounds pretty fun, though they'd need to restrict the amount of time it was available to encourage people to queue at the same time. Particularly as number dwindled.
    it was meant to be satyrical. just as all this silly QQ about I don't have enough time when honestly the longest part of organized raiding is learning the bosses. after that organized raids go QUICKER than many LFR.

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    Quote Originally Posted by miffy23 View Post
    Yeah sorry that's nonsense. Gw2 is a great game but that statement is just absolute fanboy nonsense on so many levels and just plain false.

    I'm gonna pop in here again but I simply can't believe why so many keep feeding this thread. Either you're not reading through it at all, or you're not getting what the OP is saying. Because I think it's ridiculous.

    To sum it up, the OP is complaining that WoW is too easy, and wants the hardest content in the game available in a matchmaking system, dropping the entire organization for raiding and the social aspect. Basically, LFR throughout all difficulties.

    Here's why that is the most idiotic notion I've come across since MoP release:
    Firstly WoW is a social game. At it's very core, the reason why people stick with the game and their guilds is for the connections they've made and experiences they've shared in the game. There's always a large part of single player experience as well, but the most important factor binding the majority of guilds together is cooperative gameplay ie PVP or raiding. While there may have been a handful of people that made some friends via LFR, the majority finds the social experience of it to be overwhelmingly negative, because when u don't need to fear any kind of social repercussion, people behave like dicks. And so you get often unbearable LFRs. So you want this to take over for every aspect of raiding? Yuck.

    Apart from that, let's look at the realistic part of that - you want the hardest content in the game, that requires meticulous preparation and knowledge of the encounter, as well as certain minimal gear value and control of your class, to be available for everyone in a matchmaking system. As someone else stated before - try throwing everyone at one of those lovely fights and see how many stick with it after a few wipes. And there will be many. Even at well organized and prepared levels, with amazing players, you will have tons and tons of wipes on progress fights. Why? Guess what, because it's hard. Translating that to a system where everyone just wants that quick raid fight and success, like you, is simply an impossibility, apart from the fact that you'll get a complete lack of leadership and a certain toxic atmosphere on top of that.

    If you were truly such a raid veteran you would know how idiotic this idea is. All I get from your posts is that you are incredibly annoyed that you can't raid at the best level, whether that be due to time constraints or skill constraints (oh btw - "world #1-3 guild from vanilla to wotlk". So you were in D+T, Nihilum, Curse, then Ensidia? mhmmm...), and like many people newer to the game you can't overcome the gap from queueing for LFR to actually engaging in a community and playing at a different level. Which is probably an issue, I agree. But in no world does that justify your suggestion.

    Your statements are simply wrong in so many aspects and countless in the thread have told you why. I'll sum it up again: the challenges in the game are there, and they are frankly much easier to access than they were in "the good old times" of Vanilla/TBC/Wrath. Want the hardest 5 man content imaginable possibly since trying TBC heroics in green/blues? Go for challenge mode. Want ever tougher and more complex raid encounters that still manage to somehow add original mechanics after all this time? Go for a heroic raiding guild. Heroic raiding has reached new hights each expansion in terms of complexity, and this tier especially has put an extra emphasis on individual responsibility in mechanics, making it one of the toughest yet on nomal too. While you may remember some old raids fondly for the time needed to clear them, this was mostly due to horrible gating and itemization. The mechanics were laughably simple in comparison.

    Back then, time = success, within reason. Now, skill = success. I know so many players that log on for the few raids per week they sign up for, and they are perfectly happy with that because it gives them what they want. I don't know where your very subjective perception of not wanting a raid schedule applies to the rest of the raiding community, who in fact to a large degree wants more gating and grinding time investments for success back, as you can see in so many clamoring for TBC/Wrath-like circumstances. Your suggestion would likely drive many away from MMO raiding and make it a mindless, anonymous dystopian affair.

    In your world, you hop in a matched up raid to wipe for a few hours with people screaming at each other and quitting the group, while you hang on twitter or watch a LoL-stream or whatever, so you can get your achievement at some point and be done with it. You've sadly misunderstood the whole point of the game, in my opinion.
    honestly all he is saying is that he wants the ability to que for quick carries by elite players who WILL NOT participate in such a system.





    There is no bad RNG only bad L2P

  6. #786
    Wasn't this guy with 160IQ+ in his signature?

    Now here is the list why it will keep casuals interested.
    Flexi mode, which shouldn't be too hard. + you get heirlooms for your alts. I see this as huge plus for casuals.
    LFR mode.
    New proving grounds.

    But this statement makes me laugh "There is a lack of challenge".
    If they want more challenge they can do normal raids which aren't that hard. There are always pugs.

    As for heroic modes, they are not meant for casuals but for hardcore, semi-hardcore raiders.
    Last edited by Shaqur; 2013-09-01 at 02:44 PM.

  7. #787
    The Lightbringer judgementofantonidas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Floopa View Post
    Please don't mix casual players with "bad players" (which is what you're arguing). I play WoW maybe 7 hours a week and I have 3 characters all with 540+ gear.

    not casual





    There is no bad RNG only bad L2P

  8. #788
    The problem with WoW is you are either hardcore or nothing.

    Most players are content with LFR because there's no real incentive to go beyond it, and you have to be very dedicated to clear raids before new ones arrive.

    So WoW is basically dead unless you are hardcore or content with scraps in LFR because few people want to aim higher.

    The game needs "wannabes". But for some inexplicable reason you guys don't see it that way, and Blizzard like having a divided playerbase.

    So be it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Well, by the rowboatload, since there are so very few such players.
    Intelligent people are a minority too, so we shouldn't listen to them right?

  9. #789
    Quote Originally Posted by Nobleshield View Post
    I don't think that queuing is the solution, but I agree that the future of MMOs is going to be on small group content. I keep harping on these elsewhere but the future is the idea of the "Nightmare" dungeon, and not the raid, as the primary endgame. Your nightmare dungeons can be challenging, but because it's small group content it's much easier to find people and you can do things with your close friends, as many people in this game play with a small circle of friends and then have to expand to be able to raid outside of LFR. This is the future. Raids won't go away entirely, of course, but they won't be nearly as large or as challenging as they are now; I envision a game where you have three kinds of dungeons:

    * Normal dungeons (as they are now)
    * Heroic dungeons (as they are now; meant as the first step of gearing up)
    * Nightmare dungeons (as hard as Challenge Modes are, without any of the timing/leaderboards/scaling, that drop epic loot and/or points and tokens to buy epic loot)

    But wait, you say: That's just trading raids for dungeons, and you have three versions of the same dungeon now instead. True, although I imagine there would be certain Nightmare-only dungeons in this situation, and a 4-5 boss dungeon is infinitely better to do on different modes than a 12 boss raid.

    In this sort of game, your raids would still exist but they would be much closer to raids like Onyxia, Obsidium Sanctum, Throne of the Four Winds (minus the BS random loot, of course) and the world bosses than your huge Molten Core or Ulduar style raids. Raids become supplemental, dropping loot that's the same level as the Nightmare dungeons.

    The key in this sort of system is to limit gear inflation, so everyone is always kept roughly around the same overall level, with the better players having more of the high-end gear at any given time. So for your "tiers" you either add in different currency (similar to the old badge system in Wrath), and you can add in additional Nightmare dungeons (T2 dungeons or whatever) but provide a reason to continue to run the original ones as well. Raids are few and far between, and are always parallel to the current Nightmare dungeons, instead of being on a curve at the top.
    The problem with what you're suggesting is very similar to the problem the game has now, which is that the rewards given for participating in the game are not equal and are also the tools used to PLAY the game.

    Think about it. What if there were special shoes that made you jump higher, but only NBA players could get them. Golf clubs and balls that hit the ball further and straighter, but you had to win on the PGA tour to get them.

    If you put the best tools for playing behind a game behind a series of ever more difficult task to get to those tools then the 5, 10, 25, 50% or whatever of players who can get to the better tools will be the players you have to tune the NEXT set of tasks around which will just decrease the potential number of participants. You see it now in raiding even with ilvl bumps on easy mode. The fact that raiders and heroic raiders exist made Blizzard tune heroic scenarios in such a way that at a 490 ilvl they are very challenging so they can be somewhat challenging for a raider wearing 535. Now look at your audience and think, who has the skill to do content with less powerful gear - the player with the best gear in the game. So by giving superior rewards to the better players it removes challenge for them and increases the challenge for a less skilled player possibly past the point of their not being able to do it at all.

    Depriving the least skilled players of any game of the tools needed to play the game will result in fewer players, especially when you offer little interesting content for those players and shove them into one type (like Blizzard does now with raiding).

  10. #790
    Quote Originally Posted by judgementofantonidas View Post

    it was meant to be satyrical. just as all this silly QQ about I don't have enough time when honestly the longest part of organized raiding is learning the bosses. after that organized raids go QUICKER than many LFR.
    I noticed the satire, I just felt that the idea would be an interesting addition to the game. It wouldn't do much for the irredeemably awful players, but who cares.

    That aside, the main complaint is scheduling the time to play WoW, not the time itself. 300 hours of raiding is easier to fit into a schedule than 8-10, Tuesday through Thursday for about a year. I remember raiding and getting down to one raid day before most guilds had cleared a dungeon and it felt pretty good knowing I wasn't wasting my time like they were. When I moved back to civilization it started to become ridiculous that the only scheduled leisure time I had was spent in a video game.

    Personally I just quit and that's what this thread is about, people quitting due to the schedule.

  11. #791
    High Overlord Yuna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    I have been in plenty of groups that have made it through raid finder without help. If the group fails it takes longer to complete the raid when one of the main reasons for the popularity of LFR is that you do not need to spend a lot time completing it compared to normal or heroic raiding this is a major draw back.

    Judging by your post I am not surprised that most players that you met need help. My experience of LFR is that it is full of players with varying levels of ability and for the most part every group manages to complete each wing without issue. If groups cannot complete certain bosses Blizzard will nerf them there is no need for help from over geared raiders.
    At least try to understand the problem. I bet all those groups you are talking about were recently and i do not think it is nonsense that Blizzard has to nerf something in lfr, which slightly higher difficulty was an experiment in 5.2 to begin with, so ppl keep attending to it instead of mass-leaving and abandoning their groups because they wanted items for no or the least work to do.

    How many players in "your" early lfr groups that were able to complete everything without failing actually needed items from LFR, or were they only grinding legendary stuff or points? How high was the average ilvl of the groups? (usually see lot´s of 520ish ppl mixed in nowadays, not so many 480s)

    Did you run LFR on 5.0 and 5.2 wing-releases? (remember Garalon, Windlord or Tortos, Durumu which were 90%+ unbeaten by most lfr groups due to no communication or tactics and blizzard had to nerf them because ppl just wanted loot with no effort) Those groups which were able to down them easily had some higher geared characters mixed in and the experience of others from previous kills.

    Iam sorry if i sound arrogant but thats just my experience over the months since 5.0 and the information i gathered while running lfr regulary with 5 characters as well as infoirmation from guildmates and friends.

  12. #792
    Pit Lord Odina's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prag View Post
    Heroic raiding (to get 540+) required way more than 7 hours a week. Sure, farm months are awesome. It's the time commitment before it goes on farm that separates casuals from raiders.
    .
    No it doesnt!

    http://www.worldoflogs.com/guilds/152356/
    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...Shiah/advanced

    Hell I've had shit luck and am at 437!
    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...Odina/advanced

    4 hours of raiding a week is not even close to more than 7 hours lol!


    I love the falacy that you need to do more than 7 hours a week for that gear lol!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anarchor View Post
    Exactly.

    And that is exactly the type of content that is missing for people who are looking for a challenge, want to feel like they're making meaningful progress in 'core content' of the game, but don't want to commit to a raidshedule. This way people have the freedom to queue for that type of content whenever they feel like it, can spend hours on trying to beat the next boss if they have the time, meet people naturally with which they work well together and improve their friendslist etc.

    I really believe that such a system is the future for popular MMO games.

    People don't seem to understand that the whole 'commiting to a raidshedule' thing is just ... not feasible or attractive for a too big majority of gamers today.
    This is sort of available currently but it does not have the same gear drops like a raid would but you can get a pretty good idea of how sucsessful it is. Look at challenge modes currently and that is basically what you want to have set up on a raid scope with a que. The issue is you hardly see any pug challenge modes that are successfull and they hardly happen. There is a reason that you cant que for challenge mode and that is you need organization for any pve event where each player needs to do specific tasks!

    In your scenario peopel would que for say Boss 5 / 10 as they have killed 1-4 and want to challenge 5! Now you get tossed in with random group that also killed 1-4 but who knows how many were carried through or how many only have about 20 minutes to go etc. So now your in there with 10 random peopel fighting and "sorry guys got to go GL" and.... sit in que untill the next chap ques for boss 5... then you notice after awhile that the healer has half dps gear and that is why your failing... boot and re que...

    Anything with a challenge needs organization because you need to be able to not only comunicate but hold peopel responsible for there actions! A que system allows joe dps that has shit healing offspec get a fast healing que get in and then mess up your run untill you replace him... however in a organised group that shit won't fly from the get go! Your bigest issue is not that there is no want for the system it's that the avgplayer that runs lfr as they do today will que and want to run that the same way... and well if Garalon taught us anything it's that unorganised challenges fail misserably and peopel do not stick it out / want to learn!

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    Quote Originally Posted by hrugner View Post
    Personally I just quit and that's what this thread is about, people quitting due to the schedule.
    Yea there are some crazy people that actually scheduel softball and soccer and hockey and football games the same night each week with the same people!!!! Like wtf are they thinking why not just play pickup games! Seems so dumb that people would actually scheduel time out of there life for leisure activities... O wait... no seems perfectly normal!

  13. #793
    Quote Originally Posted by Odina View Post
    Yea there are some crazy people that actually scheduel softball and soccer and hockey and football games the same night each week with the same people!!!! Like wtf are they thinking why not just play pickup games! Seems so dumb that people would actually scheduel time out of there life for leisure activities... O wait... no seems perfectly normal!
    You ought to read my whole comment rather than taking just enough to support your point. WoW was taking up the only regular chunk of free time I had so I quit raiding. I had irregular free time, but the raiding chunk was the only thing that was a regular reoccurring amount of time. It seemed silly to spend it on video games rather than with my family or real life friends. It made sense during my brief time in an agricultural town of 400 people, but not back in the real world where there are things to do.

    This is a common complaint among casual players. This is a thread about keeping casual players interested in a game where the development team has declared they are focusing on the casual player.

  14. #794
    The Lightbringer judgementofantonidas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Odina View Post
    No it doesnt!


    Hell I've had shit luck and am at 437!



    - - - Updated - - -



    and 437 is greater than 540 how?





    There is no bad RNG only bad L2P

  15. #795
    Pit Lord miffy23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hrugner View Post
    You ought to read my whole comment rather than taking just enough to support your point. WoW was taking up the only regular chunk of free time I had so I quit raiding. I had irregular free time, but the raiding chunk was the only thing that was a regular reoccurring amount of time. It seemed silly to spend it on video games rather than with my family or real life friends. It made sense during my brief time in an agricultural town of 400 people, but not back in the real world where there are things to do.

    This is a common complaint among casual players. This is a thread about keeping casual players interested in a game where the development team has declared they are focusing on the casual player.
    Yet raiding, especially at the high end, has never and will never be a casual activity. So complaining about not being given something that requires more than just a casual time commitment shows a total lack of perspective and understanding of core elements of raiding in WoW. The goal is to give people with a stricter time schedule something similar to do, ie LFR and Flex. Not to make the harder content that requires preparation and communication so much easier that you can run it with Joe Highdps from Kazzak.

  16. #796
    Pit Lord Odina's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgementofantonidas View Post
    and 437 is greater than 540 how?
    Look at the other armory link in the comment from one of our raiders... 542 is greater than 540 .. yes or no? Like I said with shit luck I'm almost at the 540 mark myself and we don't raid over 4 hours a week total way lower than that "you need more than 7 hours a week to be over 540" comment!

    Edit : Just comparing our two guilds its clear why we have such a different view. On avg you raid 5 days a week totaling about 26 hours of raid time where we raid one night for 4 hours a week. Your guilds avg Ilevel is 530 vs ours at an avg of 534. However as you can see from our Feral druid its possible to break the 540 mark on 4 hours a week and get decent progress out of about 1/6th the time you are commiting. We will obviously not see things eye to eye as we experience raiding very differently!

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    Quote Originally Posted by hrugner View Post
    It seemed silly to spend it on video games rather than with my family or real life friends. It made sense during my brief time in an agricultural town of 400 people, but not back in the real world where there are things to do.
    Are you currenlty in any sports or other schedueled liesure activity? If not then schedueled activities are just not for you and has nothign to do with a videogame! Hell many I know think being on a hockey team and having schedueled games is silly and they would rather do random activities with friends and family.

    You changed how you are spending your leisure time there is nothign wrong with that but schedueling time for liesure activities is nothign new... from bird watching, to training for a marathon, to learning a new language, to being on a sports team, to playing video games, to being in a book club, to going to the gym, etc etc!
    Last edited by Odina; 2013-09-03 at 04:31 PM.

  17. #797
    Quote Originally Posted by miffy23 View Post
    Yet raiding, especially at the high end, has never and will never be a casual activity. So complaining about not being given something that requires more than just a casual time commitment shows a total lack of perspective and understanding of core elements of raiding in WoW. The goal is to give people with a stricter time schedule something similar to do, ie LFR and Flex. Not to make the harder content that requires preparation and communication so much easier that you can run it with Joe Highdps from Kazzak.
    I agree that raiding shouldn't be made easier just to appeal to casual players, raiding is simply something that won't ever be the most appealing to casual players anyway. The chief distinguishing features of raids are more people and organization, both are strong scheduling restrictions. Why on earth their trying to make versions of raids where their distinguishing elements are irrelevant is completely beyond me.

    Isn't flex a normal raid difficulty that ramps up between 10-25 players? That doesn't really address casual concerns much, does it?

  18. #798
    Pit Lord Odina's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hrugner View Post
    Isn't flex a normal raid difficulty that ramps up between 10-25 players? That doesn't really address casual concerns much, does it?
    The difficulty is lower than normal (as such it gives lower I level gear) and the difficulty does not ramp up with more players but abilities and hp etc ramp up the more players join. So say you join with 10 and the boss has 10 million HP join with 15 then it has 15 million HP (basic example) as it would make no sense to have 10 million HP with 10 or 15 players... you would just dump as many players in to make it face roll if it didnt ramp up with more players.

  19. #799
    Quote Originally Posted by Odina View Post

    Are you currenlty in any sports or other schedueled liesure activity? If not then schedueled activities are just not for you and has nothign to do with a videogame! Hell many I know think being on a hockey team and having schedueled games is silly and they would rather do random activities with friends and family.

    You changed how you are spending your leisure time there is nothign wrong with that but schedueling time for liesure activities is nothign new... from bird watching, to training for a marathon, to learning a new language, to being on a sports team, to playing video games, to being in a book club, to going to the gym, etc etc!
    Correct it isn't anything new. Which isn't an important distinction since it's a common concern of the casual player, which is what's being talked about here. The question "why MoP's pve endgame can't keep casual players interested" is the one put forward.

    The solution could well be that:

    1. casual players are those that don't want to schedule play time
    2. raiding is only interesting when it's focused around organized groups, which includes scheduling
    3. mop's end game is very focused around raiding
    therefore

    mop's endgame is very focused around not casual players.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Odina View Post
    The difficulty is lower than normal (as such it gives lower I level gear) and the difficulty does not ramp up with more players but abilities and hp etc ramp up the more players join. So say you join with 10 and the boss has 10 million HP join with 15 then it has 15 million HP (basic example) as it would make no sense to have 10 million HP with 10 or 15 players... you would just dump as many players in to make it face roll if it didnt ramp up with more players.
    That's what I assumed, though I thought it started at normal difficulty. Like I said though, these seems to be a better fit for guilds with irregular raid groups than for casual players themselves.

    I think it's a good addition though, shame that it isn't at least normal difficulty.

  20. #800
    Quote Originally Posted by hrugner View Post
    The solution could well be that:

    1. casual players are those that don't want to schedule play time
    2. raiding is only interesting when it's focused around organized groups, which includes scheduling
    3. mop's end game is very focused around raiding
    therefore

    mop's endgame is very focused around not casual players.
    +1
    Ive raided since vanilla, quit after Ulduar and when i raided it was very hardcore.
    My skill has not decreased since then really, yet im unable to raid since im unable to commit to a raiding schedue.
    Skill has nothing to do with time, im absolutely sure im still up to the task of killing heroic bosses, yet that will not be possible until Blizzard finds a solution to the dilemma i quoted.

    What i want is hard content, very hard content, yet content that doesnt require you to have a set raiding schedue, and doesnt require you to idle for 2h before finding a group only to have someone leave and wait another 2h, its unreasonable to expect PuGs to work anymore and there needs to be a system similar to Oqueue.

    This has nothing to do with wanting free loot or that sort of stuff, ive played wow since release, and dont really care at all about loot anymore, i get the gear that is best, enchant and socket it properly, and swap it out when its old, the thrill is gone long ago, i just want hard content that challenges me personally, something that is starting to feel like a impossible dream nowdays as blizzards motto seems to be.

    CASUAL = EASY
    Maybe its for the best, if a system that rewarded skill better was in place, bad players would feel alienated, shrug, who knows.
    Last edited by vexew; 2013-09-03 at 04:39 PM.

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