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  1. #821
    Quote Originally Posted by yjmark View Post
    I doubt they were dismayed. I think they wanted to prove a point to the playerbase via data.
    It will be maximally cool if they decide to dump a boatload of data on us after this expansion, to end the "casual vs. hardcore" debate once and for all.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler

  2. #822
    Banned Kelimbror's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    It will be maximally cool if they decide to dump a boatload of data on us after this expansion, to end the "casual vs. hardcore" debate once and for all.
    While it's very likely they will show the data that casual play, non structured/open play, etc is prevalent over the outdated raid model, it's 99.99% sure to not end the supposed 'debate'. If this thread has proven anything, it's that people can't listen to facts and admit they are wrong. Much better to continue on with absurd claims and finger pointing than to look at evidence and change your mind.

    It's also not going to change the way they develop raid content, as they have finally figured out how to make that investment worthwhile. For years they have blown probably large portions of the dev budget on niche content, but now they have figured out how to deliver that same content with minimal extra work to encompass a huge percentage of their players.

    People don't give them enough credit in their haste to claim the game isn't hardcore or casual enough. Regardless of personal opinions, from a business standpoint Blizzard made a genius move with LFR and now Flex raiding. It's going to open them up to creating even better raid content than before while also allowing further development on additional modes of progression and adding new activities to the game.

    From everything they've said, it sounds like they are very proud of their design and systems in Mists, but agree that not having a centralized 'Big Bad' made the story feel weaker. I completely disagree with them, but I'm sure they have data that proves otherwise so what do I know? I think MoP was the last puzzle piece for them to figure out the general design scheme they will use going forward.

    I imagine the next xpac will look like WoW: Greatest Hits.

  3. #823
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    They must have been dismayed by the low and declining participation in "raiding as intended", then.
    They probably are, which is why they will aim to make guild raiding more viable again, because guilds create communities and give people a reason to come back to this game.

    You see them as a minority and therefore no one should care. I wonder what your real life political views are in that case.

    Don't listen to that guy with the PHD or your doctor. They are just a minority.

  4. #824
    Quote Originally Posted by Garian View Post
    You see them as a minority and therefore no one should care. I wonder what your real life political views are in that case.

    Don't listen to that guy with the PHD or your doctor. They are just a minority.
    I'm not sure what my political views have to do with it, but I do like to point and laugh at ridiculous analogies.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler

  5. #825
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    I'm not sure what my political views have to do with it, but I do like to point and laugh at ridiculous analogies.
    This is why I prefer talking to intelligent people. Maybe one day you will understand. It's not my fault that you are incapable of grasping a simple concept.

    The game needs guilds and hardcore players. Just because gamers are a minority doesn't mean the game doesn't need them.

  6. #826
    Quote Originally Posted by Garian View Post
    This is why I prefer talking to intelligent people. Maybe one day you will understand. It's not my fault that you are incapable of grasping a simple concept.

    The game needs guilds and hardcore players. Just because gamers are a minority doesn't mean the game doesn't need them.
    I agree and disagree with your 2nd line.

    Hardcore players while useful for some things (theory crafting sites, PTR raid testing and such) the game could function just fine with out them.

    Guilds I would agree are a staple of any MMO. more should be done to promote guilds if possible.

  7. #827
    Bloodsail Admiral zozobra's Avatar
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    Four things they tried to implement for casual players that were not properly fleshed out and executed, in my eyes:

    1. LFR - Speaks for itself. You know something is wrong when two weeks into it's launch it's referred to as "Looking For Retards" The Flex raid system is what I thought LFR was going to be in the first place. I needed Flex 2 expansions ago, and they should just scrap LFR.

    2. Challenge Modes - Great idea but it has no repeat value. Once players do it, there's no reason to go back, making it very hard for new players to get into it. If you're not in the right guild or on a very active server, you're stuck with OpenRaid.

    3. Brawler's Guild - I love soloing bosses and these are very challenging, but it really get's repetitive after a while. Part of the reason I enjoy soloing is because the boss drops a mount or a transmog item I'm after. Brawler's Guild should definitely have more incentive: Transmog sets, and a unique mount.

    4. Scenarios - The way they were described in interviews and blue posts made them sound like they were non-instanced, open-world events. Maybe I read too much/too little into it, but I thought it was pretty clear. What we got are very boring instances. I don't even see the point of them from a super casual point of view. I've only ran them once to get the title, and it was more painful than grinding for primals.


    So as a casual, these are the things that can't keep me interested in the game. I also think it's both boring and unfair that heroic bosses have more/more interesting mechanics than all the other tiers. I think they should design all tiers to have the same mechanics, just scaled appropriately to the difficulty level. But that's another topic all together.
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  8. #828
    Quote Originally Posted by Garian View Post
    This is why I prefer talking to intelligent people. Maybe one day you will understand.
    Speaking of PhDs: I have a PhD. What is your most advanced degree?

    It's not my fault that you are incapable of grasping a simple concept.
    I am quite capable of recognizing the ludicrous nature of the analogy you attempted to make. Yes, let's equate hardcore gamers with doctors. Hardcore gaming is a life and death situation where the ultimate price will be paid if things are screwed up! Oh wait, that's laughably stupid.

    The game needs guilds and hardcore players. Just because gamers are a minority doesn't mean the game doesn't need them.
    This is self-serving BS. The game would survive just fine if every hardcore gamer dropped dead (well, except for the devs, if they are hardcore gamers).
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler

  9. #829
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Speaking of PhDs: I have a PhD. What is your most advanced degree?
    I have a 9 inch penis.

    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    I am quite capable of recognizing the ludicrous nature of the analogy you attempted to make. Yes, let's equate hardcore gamers with doctors. Hardcore gaming is a life and death situation where the ultimate price will be paid if things are screwed up! Oh wait, that's laughably stupid.
    Your argument is the equivalent of saying that we don't need leaders just because they are a minority, which is absurd.

    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    This is self-serving BS. The game would survive just fine if every hardcore gamer dropped dead (well, except for the devs, if they are hardcore gamers).
    The game needs gamers and guilds. By your logic actual guilds are a minority, which they are, so the game doesn't need them even though they clearly have a huge ripple effect on the game.

    You are being myopic in order to support your argument, which is typical of someone who can't see the bigger picture.

    I'm glad that Ghostcrawler is a smarter man than you.

  10. #830
    Warchief miffy23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    They must have been dismayed by the low and declining participation in "raiding as intended", then.
    While the raiding population may have shrunken a bit, it's pretty much in line with the overall slow decline of subs, which is to be extected. That doesn't mean there is anything wrong with the raiding system as it is, and also why they are exploring other methods of engaging not so active players besides changing the core raiding system.

  11. #831
    Quote Originally Posted by Garian View Post
    Your argument is the equivalent of saying that we don't need leaders just because they are a minority, which is absurd.
    Not at all. I'm pointing out the consequences of not cowtowing to the elite are rather different in the two cases. This has the effect of making your analogy completely ridiculous.

    If the health care system uses faith healers instead of medical doctors, people die.

    If the game caters to casuals rather than hardcores, there is no such dire outcome.

    But please, continue to pretend they're remotely the same thing.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler

  12. #832
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Not at all. I'm pointing out the consequences of not cowtowing to the elite are rather different in the two cases. This has the effect of making your analogy completely ridiculous.

    If the health care system uses faith healers instead of medical doctors, people die.

    If the game caters to casuals rather than hardcores, there is no such dire outcome.

    But please, continue to pretend they're remotely the same thing.
    The game would survive without casual gamers and "casuals". It would just go back to a model where it isn't updated as much. Now the game in its current state where it requires massive manpower to maintain and update, does indeed need casual gamers, but that doesn't mean the game has to be made for stupid sheep.

    WoW needs guilds because they create communities otherwise we'd be happier playing single player games. And there are much better single player games than WoW. Now if you want to turn WoW into a first person shooter you could argue that that's what most people want, then the rest of us would have to find another game.

    A tyranny of the majority isn't a good idea when the majority like Justin Bieber.

  13. #833
    Quote Originally Posted by Garian View Post
    The game would survive without casual gamers and "casuals". It would just go back to a model where it isn't updated as much.
    "The game would survive" is an incredibly weaksauce argument to try to convince Blizzard that this would be a good idea. It would survive, perhaps, but in a vastly diminished and less profitable form. Why would any company think that was a good outcome?

    WoW needs guilds because they create communities otherwise we'd be happier playing single player games
    Guilds != hardcore gamers.

    A tyranny of the majority isn't a good idea when the majority like Justin Bieber.
    Entitled elites have used that form of argument for thousands of years. The argument invariably becomes a way for a group in a position of unwarranted privilege to try to maintain their position. I reject your entitlement and elitism, with prejudice.
    Last edited by Osmeric; 2013-09-05 at 08:36 PM.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler

  14. #834
    Quote Originally Posted by tyrindor View Post
    Are you serious?

    1) So every casual is running around with 13/13H progression? You can't just avoid entire parts of the game and then claim there is no challenge.
    2) Legendary quest line? Titles? Mounts/Pets? Achievements? Gear? Clearing 12/12 or 13/13H? All types of character progression...
    3) Normals? Heroics? Brawler's Guild? There's a huge system in place for varying levels of skill and time commitment.
    Sounds like you are playing the perfect game for yourself. Besides heroic raiding, what else again? You cannot be even trying to say heroic 5 mans can you? What huge system (besides one - heroic raids) is in place for varying levels of skill and time commitment? You playing a different game?

  15. #835
    Pandaren Monk
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post
    See here's your problem. The endgame isn't really casual. In WoW the endgame is raiding (not LFR). I see this as the classic:

    -Refuse to do all but certain kinds of content
    -Complain there's no content

    or

    -Refuse to do challenging content
    -Complain that content isn't challenging
    Let it be known, there is a difference between unwillingness to do normal modes/hard modes and the ability to find someone who will take you into a raid group to do these. You know where I drew the line? When I had to start having a wow resume and apply to websites to raid. That's where it all got a bit too much for me.
    "There are other sites on the internet designed for people to make friends or relationships. This isn't one" Darsithis Super Moderator
    Proof that the mmochamp community can be a bitter and lonely place. What a shame.

  16. #836
    Some ask: If there were no hardcores, who would write all the theorycraft number-crunching?

    I ask: If there were no hardcores, who would read it?

    The hardcores could all drop dead and everyone else would just keep plugging away in LFR. If LFR was too hard without raiders slumming and carrying the group, Blizzard would nerf it and nobody would care.

  17. #837
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    "The game would survive" is an incredibly weaksauce argument to try to convince Blizzard that this would be a good idea. It would survive, perhaps, but in a vastly diminished and less profitable form. Why would any company think that was a good outcome?
    Rome wasn't built in a day. There was a time when WoW didn't even have two million subs but it grew. Blizz invested when they saw its potential but they never expected WoW to become so popular.

    It wouldn't be as profitable no, and I don't expect Blizzard to sacrifice their IP to cater to a minority of players, but the game would be a lot better without casual gamers dragging it down. Both gameplay-wise and thematically, especially if they dropped the PEGI 12 rating and made something much darker.

    Wouldn't you like to see that? It won't happen because that's not as profitable as turning WoW into Final Fantasy, so we will have to wait for competition to emerge in the distant future when making MMOs becomes easier and cheaper.

    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Guilds != hardcore gamers.
    Guilds can be composed of gamers who simply don't have a lot of time to play games anymore, but when they do they are efficient with their time.

    The current WoW model makes it impossible for them to thrive because hardcore guilds don't want to train people and you need to clear everything fast before nerfs hit or the next tier arrives. Plus there is no incentive to raid beyond LFR. Blizz need to create incentives to raid and give guilds time to clear content so there's a stable environment and people are confident they can invest their time.

    I don't know why anyone would want to play WoW without friends. Is LFR really that good? This is the end of an era for MMOs and especially open world MMOs. I can see why an FPS style WoW is better for most people but you are going to miss something special.
    Last edited by Garian; 2013-09-05 at 04:59 PM.

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