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  1. #501
    Banned Trassk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrSteveBrule View Post
    So I watched the last Twilight movie (I know, bad idea but in my defense I was too lazy to change the channel and it was in a language I'm learning)
    and at the end it all ends up in a huge battle and a lot of characters dying.

    Turns out it was all a vision of the future if the bad guy were to try to attack. So in reality, nothing happened.

    That's what I feel this datamined footage is conjuring. Lame.
    its called alternate timelines. It happens all the time in comic books, and given the developers base so much of there lore around comic books and that kind of theme, alternate timelines fits in as much as anything else.

  2. #502
    The thing that interests me about this (and im sure im over thinking it) but where is Velen in this "timeline." In my mind legion shows up Velen gets out of dodge fast and with the alliance in shambles he continues to run.





    All this timeline talk makes me think of this...http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=...9QEwAg&dur=499
    Last edited by tamlus; 2013-08-29 at 11:21 PM.
    Paradox, Alliance, U.S Guild Site.
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  3. #503
    Quote Originally Posted by tamlus View Post
    The thing that interests me about this (and im sure im over thinking it) but where is Velen in this "timeline." In my mind legion shows up Velen gets out of dodge fast and with the alliance in shambles he continues to run.
    Velen's getting some pay back for the humans shitting on his front doorstep, that's why he hasn't done anything in MoP.

  4. #504
    Scarab Lord
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    Quote Originally Posted by tamlus View Post
    The thing that interests me about this (and im sure im over thinking it) but where is Velen in this "timeline." In my mind legion shows up Velen gets out of dodge fast and with the alliance in shambles he continues to run.





    All this timeline talk makes me think of this...http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=...9QEwAg&dur=499
    Yeah it'd make sense Velen fixing the Exodar and fleeing with the Draenei again, not very noble but he'd spin it as the survival of his species and how this world has fallen like his did.

  5. #505
    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    its called alternate timelines. It happens all the time in comic books, and given the developers base so much of there lore around comic books and that kind of theme, alternate timelines fits in as much as anything else.
    And it's a shitty writing tool. It makes death's non significant. Anything really, as long as we return to the main timeline and it's as if nothing happened.

    But I never expected much from WoW lore so.... have it!

  6. #506
    Banned Trassk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrSteveBrule View Post
    And it's a shitty writing tool. It makes death's non significant. Anything really, as long as we return to the main timeline and it's as if nothing happened.

    But I never expected much from WoW lore so.... have it!
    you know people on these threads keep protesting to what they think is shitty writing in the warcraft universe.. I doubt any of you could think of anything better.

  7. #507
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    you know people on these threads keep protesting to what they think is shitty writing in the warcraft universe.. I doubt any of you could think of anything better.
    He has a point, it does get annoying, particularly in the Warcraft universe, how little death seems to mean, particularly to villains. It loses it's effect and magnitude to the story.

    I love Warcraft lore, but one of my biggest peeves in story telling is bringing people back from the dead left, right and centre
    Last edited by wych; 2013-08-30 at 12:59 AM.

  8. #508
    I hate time travel plots. They either invalidate the past story or they're just pointless what if scenarios.

  9. #509
    Quote Originally Posted by DrSteveBrule View Post
    And it's a shitty writing tool. It makes death's non significant.
    Death is cheap in a world where you can come back from the dead as Forsaken. I don't see how you think death is still significant after that.

  10. #510
    Banned Trassk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wych View Post
    He has a point, it does get annoying, particularly in the Warcraft universe, how little death seems to mean, particularly to villains. It loses it's effect and magnitude to the story.

    I love Warcraft lore, but one of my biggest peeves in story telling is bringing people back from the dead left, right and centre
    how many major villains in wow have come back to life? (Arthas, Illidan, Deathwing, Kael'thas, Cho'gall, Gul'dan, Malygos)

    how many heroes have died and not returned? (Cairne, Grom, Lothar, Uther, Doomhammer, Rhonin, Krasus, Aegwynn)

    People bitch and complain about there not being enough death, they don't analysis hard enough to whats actually happened in the lore.

  11. #511
    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrt View Post
    I hate time travel plots. They either invalidate the past story or they're just pointless what if scenarios.
    not always, alot of marvel's 'what if?' stories reinforce a generally untested element of a character.
    its the same character, but put in a scenario that they normally would never be in.


    this what if? is being used to show the extent of Garrosh's brutality and conviction to wiping out all other races and the fact that its us stopping him now or everything is lost.

  12. #512
    New Kid Zaelsino's Avatar
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    I don't think death is that cheap in WoW really. Most "dead" characters who make a comeback pay a big price for it (look at Zombie Kael'thas and that shit stitch up job Nefarian gave his sister), and coming back as undead usually changes you quite radically.

    Dar'Khan and Sylvanas are big offenders I suppose, but both have reasons for it at least. Kind of.

  13. #513
    Trassk, you are adorable...

    how many major villains in wow have come back to life? (Arthas, Illidan, Deathwing, Kael'thas, Cho'gall, Gul'dan, Malygos)
    Kael'thas ... Already forgot the famous quote "It was merely a setback" ??
    Illidan ... Yeah, I guess we all wanna forget the Well of Eternity instance... Not the best one blizzard came up with.
    Anub arak... First below dragonblight in azjol nerub, gets killed and suddenly he's actually argent grounds?
    Ragnaros.. Molten Core and turns up in Firelands..

    And for the biggest lols of all: Altar of storms in Warcraft 3.. Yeah, I said it!!


    Edit: Oh yeah, children of Deathwing... Seriously, how many times did we kill Onyxia? lvl 60 raid, lvl 80 raid (well same instance).. And Bwd..

    how many heroes have died and not returned? (Cairne, Grom, Lothar, Uther, Doomhammer, Rhonin, Krasus, Aegwynn)
    Cenarius.. Well I'm glad that dude forgot who killed him in the first place ^^

    Think I can make the list longer if I werent so tired.
    Last edited by Restors; 2013-08-30 at 01:59 AM.

  14. #514
    So...given the choice between stopping him now and letting him impale some of the NPCs I hate the most on a pike at SW Harbor, it's actually kinda tempting to let him do that and destroy SW, then stop him later.

  15. #515
    Quote Originally Posted by xezar View Post
    So...given the choice between stopping him now and letting him impale some of the NPCs I hate the most on a pike at SW Harbor, it's actually kinda tempting to let him do that and destroy SW, then stop him later.
    I know, it's a marvelous sight seeing Varian, Anduin, and Taran Zhu impaled. I'll just hang out with the draenei since they seem to not give a shit about Garrosh and Garrosh seems not give a shit about them either.

  16. #516
    Quote Originally Posted by Restors View Post
    Trassk, you are adorable...



    Kael'thas ... Already forgot the famous quote "It was merely a setback" ??
    Illidan ... Yeah, I guess we all wanna forget the Well of Eternity instance... Not the best one blizzard came up with.
    Anub arak... First below dragonblight in azjol nerub, gets killed and suddenly he's actually argent grounds?
    Ragnaros.. Molten Core and turns up in Firelands..

    And for the biggest lols of all: Altar of storms in Warcraft 3.. Yeah, I said it!!


    Edit: Oh yeah, children of Deathwing... Seriously, how many times did we kill Onyxia? lvl 60 raid, lvl 80 raid (well same instance).. And Bwd..


    Cenarius.. Well I'm glad that dude forgot who killed him in the first place ^^

    Think I can make the list longer if I werent so tired.
    Kael'thas, Cenarius, and DW children aside, your examples are kinda bad. Well of Eternity happened 10,000 years in the past, so Illlidan was more than alive back then, he has not been resurrected after dying in BT. Anub'arak was technically undead to begin with at the start of WotLK, and it's not like it's hard to re-raise him (though I agree they could have found either a better initial use for him like having him in spider wing over that other random spider lord or to have picked a better boss for the end of ToTC). Ragnaros, already in lore that elementals can't be killed unless they're in their home plane, so by finishing him in Firelands he should be "dead dead" now, and thus could have been re-summoned otherwise like DW did to bring him to Kalimdor.

  17. #517
    Field Marshal Bretzel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Restors View Post
    Snip

    Illidan ... Yeah, I guess we all wanna forget the Well of Eternity instance... Not the best one blizzard came up with.
    Ragnaros.. Molten Core and turns up in Firelands.

    Snip
    Wait... what?

    We didn't kill Illidan in WoE nor was he brought back to life? That was a time-way in the Caverns of Time - literally us going back to before the Shattering in order to retrieve the Dragon Soul.

    And with Ragnaros, Molten Core was him being summoned into the mortal plane, and, much like the Kil'jaeden fight, we simply removed him from our plane and sent him back to the Firelands until Deathwing called him back. When we took the fight to his realm in the Firelands, thats when he was actually killed.

  18. #518
    Quote Originally Posted by maldias View Post
    this what if? is being used to show the extent of Garrosh's brutality and conviction to wiping out all other races and the fact that its us stopping him now or everything is lost.
    Basically this. People complained that it didn't make sense for the Alliance to help the rebels rather than letting them and Garrosh wipe each other out, so Blizzard's "solution" was to make Garrosh so strong that they don't have a choice.

  19. #519
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    Those examples are really bad. Almost immediately after we kill Kael'thas it's revealed that he survived, it's not like it was a huge mystery or surprise for the future, although we really didn't know when he would return.

    All that was left of Ragnaros in Vanilla was his hammer as he pretty much vanished back to his elemental plane. It's pretty much explained to us that elementals can only truly be killed in their plane of existence, Molten Core however wasn't the elemental plane of fire. Onyxia only really returned once, and she was completely reanimated. Considering Nefarian was a crazed scientist of the Dragon world and exhibited powers of necromancy on our first encounter with him, it's not too far out of the realm of possibility that the same type of magic could bring them both back. Granted it wasn't fully explained how the heads of both Onyxia/Nefarian were retrieved, but I suppose Deathwing retrieving them would make the most sense.

    Given that Warcraft takes place in a world filled with demons, magic and dark magics including necromancy it would be fairly stupid if we had every villain or hero that died stay dead permanently. Frankly it would be just as a bad as a world where death absolutely doesn't mean anything because people could simply be revived. What I'm saying is that in a world with these magics in place, it would be bad if people simply didn't use them in times where it's convenient to get around death. It can be overdone however.

    I'm fine with people being brought back hero or villain as long as it makes SENSE in the world in which they crafted the game. For sure people are going to have good examples where it's a stretch, but you can't say with a straight face that blizzard painted themselves in a corner in every single instance where they brought back a major villain or hero from the 'dead'. Sometimes it's for simply game play or for fun. Onyxia bring 'brought back' at level 80 was entirely for game play purposes and to celebrate the anniversary of the game, counting that as canon and existing within the realm of the story is being really really picky. Also mentioning the altar of storms within WC3 is silly, it's obviously a game play tool so that you didn't have to keep restarting over and over. It's obvious that in canon the heroes that weren't suppose to die never did die during WC3 lol.

    I like death being meaningful but revival and resurrection can be good devices in a story if used well. Grom being brought back after he went out would completely destroy any significance of the character dying in the first place, it would make that point in the games history have far less impact. Ragnaros being brought back however did make sense within the games lore and really didn't diminish from the games story at all.
    Last edited by Tojara; 2013-08-30 at 04:02 AM.

  20. #520
    High Overlord Zemiki's Avatar
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    So Taran'Zhu did survive, awesome!

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