Page 17 of 21 FirstFirst ...
7
15
16
17
18
19
... LastLast
  1. #321
    Quote Originally Posted by kidsafe View Post
    More powerful PVE racials tipped the scales enough to destroy Alliance raiding from the top down and it has rippled far beyond the scope of just the top 1% of raiding guilds. The entire WoW population is affected in the end.
    Pretty much, 16 of the top 20 raiding realms per Wowprogress are Horde dominant now. I've also been checking Wowrealmpop.us every couple of months and noticed the slow but steady overall swing towards Horde. I think they count a lot of unplayed/inactive Alliance characters and every alt, but it's been about a 1-2% swing per month taking all that into account. It'd be a much bigger swing if it included just active characters and just the raiding population. I venture to say EMFH and the $50 cost of transfer has helped keep the factions relatively balanced until now, but that doesn't mean the PVE-focused population wasn't continuing to go Horde over time.

    I get that they feel racials are a beginning of expansion type thing to address, but we did provide feedback that the Troll racial was OP during MoP beta, and for the most part Blizzard has remained mum on the matter. They must be making too much money from faction changes for us to have any shot at convincing them to remove racials, an antiquated feature of WoW.

    Edit: Well anyway this thread motivated me to fire off a last-minute GC tweet. Not expecting anything to come of it though.
    Last edited by MrExcelion; 2013-09-01 at 09:56 PM.

  2. #322
    The team considered changing racials in Patch 5.4, as a lot of the top guilds are switching to Horde. The impact it has on the game is limited to a handful of guilds in the world, so changing it for everyone because a handful of guilds feel that the Horde racials will make the difference in PvE ended up not being worth it.
    At this point I am not sure whether it is me or them not seeing the whole picture, because this left me quite puzzled.

    Racials are really supposed to be a flavor thing rather than something to balance the game around, so it isn't likely that we will see changes in the near future.
    I also don't see how 1% crit, for example, is more flavour than something like the portable bank of the goblins.

    Quote Originally Posted by gend View Post
    But honestly the beast bosses (Horridon, Ji-Kun, Maegera & Tortos) aren't really that hard to kill on heroic so it was definately no make or break for world first lei shen (the only kill that actually mattered).
    At least in the case of 25-man, some of the enrage timers were not that forgiving on the first week. Considering that the beast bosses were some of the first in the instance, I wouldn't be surprised if they cost some guilds more than one raid evening.

  3. #323
    Ended up not being worth what? Losing that micro-transaction revenue?

  4. #324
    Epic!
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Hillsborough, CA
    Posts
    1,506
    Quote Originally Posted by Raiju View Post
    Same for PVP and alliance racials.
    Why do you think it's basically a 1:1 split for arena rankings when the human trinket racial is vastly superior? It's because of the effect the PVE-centric Horde racials have had on where the skilled players are playing.
    "Wrong. Deterrence deflects 100% of Iron Prison (Not tomb) dmg." -Jaydenkor, 2014


  5. #325
    Immortal Raiju's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    England
    Posts
    7,336
    Quote Originally Posted by kidsafe View Post
    Why do you think it's basically a 1:1 split for arena rankings when the human trinket racial is vastly superior? It's because of the effect the PVE-centric Horde racials have had on where the skilled players are playing.
    So alliance absolutely dominate PvP (even after attempts to nerf trinkets), and Horde PvE?

    Well if blizz call that flavour then whatever. I just hate the shouting about horde favouritism. We ALL knew trolls in particular were going to be an issue this patch. Outside of that beastslaying racial (which afaik only applies on 1 fight next tier?) the horde are more offensive and varied, but not out of line with the alliance worgen/pandaren racials.
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    which is kind of like saying "of COURSE you can't see the unicorns, unicorns are invisible, silly."

  6. #326
    Epic!
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Hillsborough, CA
    Posts
    1,506
    You've already demonstrated a complete lack of reading comprehension replying to me once before. I would have expected someone from England to know English...

    As Gondlem pointed out, alliance don't dominate PVP despite the human racial. You can infer from this that PVP is of secondary importance to PVE in WoW. It has been ever since Blizzard gave up trying to turn arena into a spectated e-sport around season 2-3. Many of the top PVPers also raid, and many of the PVP-centric players want to play with these raiders. I'd watch the arena rankings over the next couple of seasons. I bet alliance arena teams will continue to be displaced by horde ones.

    It only takes one grain of sand to tip the scales, and the influx of alliance->horde transfers is going to accelerate the process. Do I need to remind you that my guild went horde 3 months after we finished ToT? 4 months after we killed any relevant beast bosses? It's no longer only about racials. It does not make any sense to continue raiding as alliance because the aggregate player skill differential is noticeable.
    Last edited by kidsafe; 2013-09-02 at 08:46 AM.
    "Wrong. Deterrence deflects 100% of Iron Prison (Not tomb) dmg." -Jaydenkor, 2014


  7. #327
    Quote Originally Posted by kidsafe View Post
    It's no longer only about racials. It does not make any sense to continue raiding as alliance because the aggregate player skill differential is noticeable.
    This.

    Especially if you are raiding heroics : it's all about maximisation. Maximise uptime on procs, maximise usage of in fight mechanics, heroics is all about pushing everything to the limits in order to get the most advantages on your side. A normal guild could be satisfied with medicore gems - a heroic one will not at all, and will ask for the best ones to be equiped. every 10 intellect / str is crucial. Not just in the benefit (0,004% DPS ?) but rather in the way you approach optimising your char / performance.

    Had this conversation with the raiders about 300 food buff. Its not just about '25 intellect' (versus feasts). IT's that if you are not prepared to farm your 300 food, why would you bother buying the best gem ? Or the best enchant ? Or pushing the encounter's mechanic just that bit more ?

    With that being said, it's pretty simple to see that any self respecting serious raider would go horde.

  8. #328
    Immortal Raiju's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    England
    Posts
    7,336
    Quote Originally Posted by kidsafe View Post
    You've already demonstrated a complete lack of reading comprehension replying to me once before. I would have expected someone from England to know English...

    As Gondlem pointed out, alliance don't dominate PVP despite the human racial. You can infer from this that PVP is of secondary importance to PVE in WoW. It has been ever since Blizzard gave up trying to turn arena into a spectated e-sport around season 2-3. Many of the top PVPers also raid, and many of the PVP-centric players want to play with these raiders. I'd watch the arena rankings over the next couple of seasons. I bet alliance arena teams will continue to be displaced by horde ones.

    It only takes one grain of sand to tip the scales, and the influx of alliance->horde transfers is going to accelerate the process. Do I need to remind you that my guild went horde 3 months after we finished ToT? 4 months after we killed any relevant beast bosses? It's no longer only about racials. It does not make any sense to continue raiding as alliance because the aggregate player skill differential is noticeable.
    Anecdotal evidence is anecdotal. On my realm and all my friends realms they are alliance heavy with all the raiding done on alliance.
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    which is kind of like saying "of COURSE you can't see the unicorns, unicorns are invisible, silly."

  9. #329
    *cough tMorph cough* on the other hand aint horde that bad, Tauren/Orc works quite good for melee and undead for casters. Belf is known to be popular too

  10. #330
    Moderator Nobleshield's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Tampa Bay, Florida
    Posts
    5,016
    Quote Originally Posted by kidsafe View Post
    It does not make any sense to continue raiding as alliance because the aggregate player skill differential is noticeable.
    Pretty much this is right. I can only speak for myself but my realm used to have pretty good population of quality Horde and Alliance guilds. Lately I've been noticing a distinct lack of Alliance and plethora of Horde, which is making recruitment hard for us, but the guild as a whole has always decided to stay Alliance as we have some people that just dislike Horde, for whatever reason, and would outright refuse to switch, and so we live with the consequences.
    NOBLESHIELD
    <Meliora> of Turalyon-US
    Raids & Dungeons Moderator | Mod Voice


  11. #331
    There is one simple thing you are forgetting- the top20 guilds will do anything for a small improvement. Their mindset is about absolute max and when you're at that level even a 0.05% improvement means something. For a regular guild doing heroics it's just not that important.

  12. #332
    Bloodsail Admiral Luminoth4's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    1,180
    Not sure if it's been posted but from the front page:
    The team considered changing racials in Patch 5.4, as a lot of the top guilds are switching to Horde. The impact it has on the game is limited to a handful of guilds in the world, so changing it for everyone because a handful of guilds feel that the Horde racials will make the difference in PvE ended up not being worth it.

    Blizzard acknowledges that many of the best raiding guilds are going Horde because of racials. However, Blizzard seem to think it will stop there. I disagree, because if the top players become Horde, those who want to be top players will change to Horde as well. Furthermore Horde will have bigger recruitment options, which will slowly dwindle the Alliance player options, meaning they will slowly feel the need to be Horde to have more opportunities.
    My Characters (Alliance - Shadowsong / Horde - Tarren-Mill)

    Dristereau3D

  13. #333
    Quote Originally Posted by Wacomman View Post
    There is one simple thing you are forgetting- the top20 guilds will do anything for a small improvement. Their mindset is about absolute max and when you're at that level even a 0.05% improvement means something. For a regular guild doing heroics it's just not that important.
    People keep bringing out these random tiny numbers like 0.1%, 0.05%, as though that's what we're talking about. It's not. If it was 0.1% we were talking about and people were faction changing for that, then fine. That's tiny, not much you can do about it anyway, there's always going to be some kind of imbalance unless everything is mirrored.

    But we're not, we're talking about 5% increased damage to beasts, a berserking racial that is way better than any other option for people that scale well with on-demand haste etc. Those things can and should be adjusted.

  14. #334
    Epic!
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Hillsborough, CA
    Posts
    1,506
    Quote Originally Posted by Raiju View Post
    Anecdotal evidence is anecdotal. On my realm and all my friends realms they are alliance heavy with all the raiding done on alliance.
    You live in isolation from the rest of the population if you are using your realm as an example. As one of the higher end US guilds, I found it incredibly hard to recruit hardcore players as Alliance. You only care about your realm, you don't recruit cross-realm...of course all your friends are one faction. My friends play in hardcore guilds, many used to be Alliance. Most are now Horde. See how that works? I expect the remaining Alliance friends to follow suit even after Blizzard makes racials cosmetic.
    "Wrong. Deterrence deflects 100% of Iron Prison (Not tomb) dmg." -Jaydenkor, 2014


  15. #335
    FFS, blizzard should just make the racials 100% cosmetic to stop dem whiners.... not that it would work, they would still whine, just about something different.

  16. #336
    Moderator Nobleshield's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Tampa Bay, Florida
    Posts
    5,016
    It's not about the racials themselves, it's about as others have said, some of them pretty high-end raiders, that the pool of Alliance raiders is constantly shrinking because there are just more opportunities for Horde. There are more Horde-dominated servers than Alliance-dominated, as nearly all of the big PVP servers are almost 100% Horde, and there's maybe 2 big 100% Alliance servers (KT and Sargeras I think). There is an imbalance of power here. When you have more recruitment Horde side, of course you'll want to go Horde to tap into that, with or without the racials.
    NOBLESHIELD
    <Meliora> of Turalyon-US
    Raids & Dungeons Moderator | Mod Voice


  17. #337
    Immortal Raiju's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    England
    Posts
    7,336
    Quote Originally Posted by kidsafe View Post
    You live in isolation from the rest of the population if you are using your realm as an example. As one of the higher end US guilds, I found it incredibly hard to recruit hardcore players as Alliance. You only care about your realm, you don't recruit cross-realm...of course all your friends are one faction. My friends play in hardcore guilds, many used to be Alliance. Most are now Horde. See how that works? I expect the remaining Alliance friends to follow suit even after Blizzard makes racials cosmetic.
    Hi I'm a top 50 raider so my opinion is more valid than yours. I am going to assume you've never recruited cross realm and that I do, and I will assume you've only ever played on one faction; because well god knows if I were being reasonable you might have a point that my anecdotal evidence is as shaky as what you gave. I'm also going to assume you don't know that many people and haven't kept literally 100's-1000's of contacts over the time which you've played, which shockingly I won't assume about you in this post. Yet.


    ^ You. In a nutshell.

    Yes, many of my friends used to be horde and our now alliance. see how that works? My anecdote counters your anecdote and evens out. I referenced how in previous seasons alliance had over 90% representation at the top at times, and nothing was done for years. Even now Alliance has the clear advantage so outside of beastslaying I see no reason for racials to change.

    http://www.warcraftrealms.com/census...ervertypeid=-1
    http://wow.realmpop.com/eu.html
    http://wow.realmpop.com/us.html

    More non-concrete evidence that alliance is fine and even still has majority?
    Last edited by Raiju; 2013-09-02 at 12:29 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    which is kind of like saying "of COURSE you can't see the unicorns, unicorns are invisible, silly."

  18. #338
    Epic!
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Hillsborough, CA
    Posts
    1,506
    And why would I care about which side has the vast majority of terrible players? So if Alliance used to have 90% representation at the top of arenas and has now dwindled to almost 50%, you think that's a good thing?

    You don't have to take my world for it. I know exactly why it's beneficial for those doing heroic raiding to go horde. You don't because you're trying to be argumentative or simply ignorant.
    Last edited by kidsafe; 2013-09-02 at 12:47 PM.
    "Wrong. Deterrence deflects 100% of Iron Prison (Not tomb) dmg." -Jaydenkor, 2014


  19. #339
    Immortal Raiju's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    England
    Posts
    7,336
    Quote Originally Posted by kidsafe View Post
    And why would I care about which side has the vast majority of terrible players? So if Alliance used to have 90% representation at the top of arenas and has now dwindled to almost 50%, you think that's a good thing?
    dwindled to almost 50%? I didn't know correct level of balance to you guys was 80/20. Says it all about this thread though.

    Someone please explain to me why (outside beastslaying) alliance aren't competitive dps wise with worgen and pandaren - worgen being pre 5.2 the best race for a lot of classes. The draenei racial isn't terrible either.
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    which is kind of like saying "of COURSE you can't see the unicorns, unicorns are invisible, silly."

  20. #340
    Epic!
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Hillsborough, CA
    Posts
    1,506
    Quote Originally Posted by Raiju View Post
    dwindled to almost 50%? I didn't know correct level of balance to you guys was 80/20. Says it all about this thread though.

    Someone please explain to me why (outside beastslaying) alliance aren't competitive dps wise with worgen and pandaren - worgen being pre 5.2 the best race for a lot of classes. The draenei racial isn't terrible either.
    Alliance should have an 80/20 split in arena considering how good Every Man For Himself is. The fact that arena representation at the top is only 50/50 when it used to be 90/10 (according to you,) that's damning evidence of an exodus by skilled players to horde. It only gets worse for alliance as time passes, and making racials cosmetic won't help the situation at this point.

    You don't know why stacking cooldowns is beneficial? You don't know why having Berserking or Blood Fury during burn phases is a massive DPS increase? Trolls also get ranged expertise, Beastslaying for Thok, and reduced snare time. Orcs get Command for additional pet damage and reduced stun time. Even after the RPPM nerfs, Troll Berserking is the best single racial for the majority of specs.

    There are some specific class combos that might prefer worgen or pandaren racials on paper, but in real life...buff/debuff stacking is the way to go. Pandarens lose their racial advantage in a raid if they die, so there is that. Draenei? Don't make me laugh. Everyone has problems getting under hit cap.

    I'm still not sure if you are this clueless or just trying to play devil's advocate.
    Last edited by kidsafe; 2013-09-02 at 01:10 PM.
    "Wrong. Deterrence deflects 100% of Iron Prison (Not tomb) dmg." -Jaydenkor, 2014


Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •