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  1. #341
    Quote Originally Posted by Raiju View Post
    dwindled to almost 50%? I didn't know correct level of balance to you guys was 80/20. Says it all about this thread though.

    Someone please explain to me why (outside beastslaying) alliance aren't competitive dps wise with worgen and pandaren - worgen being pre 5.2 the best race for a lot of classes. The draenei racial isn't terrible either.
    So you don't see anything wrong with Alliance having 63 guilds in the top 200 25man and 43 in the top 200 10man? That's respectively 31.5% and 21.5% representation. See how it doesn't affect only the first 10 guilds in the world?

    Edit: a couple more numbers.

    Of 239 guilds that have cleared 13/13 heroic in 25man, 81 are alliance: 33,89%.
    Of 930 guilds that have cleared 13/13 heroic in 10man, 357 are alliance: 38,39%.
    Last edited by Fluorescent0; 2013-09-02 at 01:00 PM.
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  2. #342
    Bloodsail Admiral Chrispotter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fluorescent0 View Post
    So you don't see anything wrong with Alliance having 63 guilds in the top 200 25man and 43 in the top 200 10man? That's respectively 31.5% and 21.5% representation. See how it doesn't affect only the first 10 guilds in the world?

    Edit: a couple more numbers.

    Of 239 guilds that have cleared 13/13 heroic in 25man, 81 are alliance: 33,89%.
    Of 930 guilds that have cleared 13/13 heroic in 10man, 357 are alliance: 38,39%.
    Correlation does not = Cause and Effect.

    More Horde guilds are killing shit.
    Did you think that maybe, more guilds that are horde are killing shit because those are the type of players that care more about raiding, so they go for better racials.
    Do you understand? It might not be that racials are OP, its that players who care enough to race change for racials, they are OP.
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  3. #343
    Quote Originally Posted by Chrispotter View Post
    Correlation does not = Cause and Effect.

    More Horde guilds are killing shit.
    Did you think that maybe, more guilds that are horde are killing shit because those are the type of players that care more about raiding, so they go for better racials.
    Do you understand? It might not be that racials are OP, its that players who care enough to race change for racials, they are OP.
    Therefore Horde guilds already have an advantage because they're able to recruit more invested people. That's exactly what we've been arguing in the last few pages. The racials have been a factor important enough to get those serious about raiding to switch, which means that now Horde has an advantage due to a better recruiting pool. But what was that initially caused by? Exactly, the racials.
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  4. #344
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrispotter View Post
    Correlation does not = Cause and Effect.

    More Horde guilds are killing shit.
    Did you think that maybe, more guilds that are horde are killing shit because those are the type of players that care more about raiding, so they go for better racials.
    Do you understand? It might not be that racials are OP, its that players who care enough to race change for racials, they are OP.
    So you agree that horde racials are better?
    So you agree that the better players are horde or feel the need to go horde?
    So you agree that recruiters from alliance guilds doing heroic raid content are having a tough time getting fresh blood?

    I think horde racials resulted in a cascade effect that ruined heroic raiding for alliance. That's pretty OP.
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  5. #345
    Quote Originally Posted by Fluorescent0 View Post
    So you don't see anything wrong with Alliance having 63 guilds in the top 200 25man and 43 in the top 200 10man? That's respectively 31.5% and 21.5% representation. See how it doesn't affect only the first 10 guilds in the world?

    Edit: a couple more numbers.

    Of 239 guilds that have cleared 13/13 heroic in 25man, 81 are alliance: 33,89%.
    Of 930 guilds that have cleared 13/13 heroic in 10man, 357 are alliance: 38,39%.
    So 13/13H are now "majority of the guilds"?

    Guess i'm playing a whole different game then.

    Just for reference, 32k guilds have killed Jinrokh on 10 man normal (therefore, 32k guilds are raid guilds, i'm excluding pugs here)

    Out of those 32k a grand total of 930 are 13/13. That makes them less than 3% of total RAIDING guilds.

    If following the badwagon of "noone raids anymore, raiding is dead, etc" that you can easily find on this forums that 3% is what, 1% of the playerbase? Assuming 1/3 raids?

    We all know blizz doesn't cater to 1% of the playerbase anymore.

    So for the 1% of the playerbase racials are the only way to improve, for the other 99% it's just cosmetic.

    Congratulations, next "blizzard doesn't release raids quick enough"? Maybe "WoW is too easy"?

  6. #346
    I never said they are the majority of guilds, what we're trying to argue is that the top-end (kinda? Some of these guilds might have killed raden yesterday) of the progression curve has been completely skewed. Now again, you never replied me when I asked you if racials are so much important to you that they warrant bringing yet another imbalance between players, so would you mind doing that now? Is a portable bank such as the one goblins have less flavour than the berserking racial of trolls?
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  7. #347
    Well over half of all recruitment threads on NGA (Chinese wow forum) are horde now. I would guess at 65% horde, if I had to guess.

  8. #348
    Moderator Nobleshield's Avatar
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    Also keep in mind the perception, that is more people will see the top guilds going Horde and want to emulate them. Look at all of the "But <high end raider> is <race>, so it must be better" type of things going on; even if it only applies to a very small subset of players, if you see the best of the best doing something you instinctively wonder why they are doing that, and if you should do it as well to be more like them. Same applies to faction. The more high-end guilds that choose to go Horde, regardless of the reason (maybe it's racials, maybe they just like Orgrimmar better than Stormwind, maybe they actually like the lore for Horde more, who knows), the more it sends the message whether right or wrong that Horde > Alliance for PVE content.
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  9. #349
    They need to get rid of all non cosmetic/profession/lore based racials and just put use them for Path of the Titans where players pick a path and get some small bonuses and abilities.

  10. #350
    Herald of the Titans T Man's Avatar
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    Horde PvE
    Alliance Pvp

  11. #351
    Quote Originally Posted by T Man View Post
    Horde PvE
    Alliance Pvp
    Not anymore. If you've looked at arenaleague's tournament (30k$ prize, so they weren't just playing for the heck of it ) the two teams that got in the final both played horde. And the tourney happened on the arenapass, so it's not anything about transfers either.
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  12. #352
    Quote Originally Posted by Fluorescent0 View Post
    I never said they are the majority of guilds, what we're trying to argue is that the top-end (kinda? Some of these guilds might have killed raden yesterday) of the progression curve has been completely skewed. Now again, you never replied me when I asked you if racials are so much important to you that they warrant bringing yet another imbalance between players, so would you mind doing that now? Is a portable bank such as the one goblins have less flavour than the berserking racial of trolls?
    Again, for anyone that hasn't cleared 13/13 yet (and for some that cleared it less than ~2 months ago) racials are NOT gamebreaking, and not being troll is NOT what they need to change to finish content.

    Doesn't matter how good berserking is on paper unless you happen to be on the 1% of heroic raiders, because improving your rotation/gem/reforge/enchant will have a greater impact than being troll instead of worgen. That's why racials are not getting changed, and that's why it doesn't matter balance is not 100% perfect. It's on the front page so feel free to read it yourself.

  13. #353
    I've read on the first page for years that rogue's combopoints were going to stay on the target, yet a good constructive thread made them turn 180° on that decision, can't see why they couldn't do the same with an issue like this.

    Again, the only benefit isn't the racial itself. The racial just initiated the process which brought to faction imbalance. Is it something that hard to understand, along with the concept that going troll doesn't prevent you from still getting better at your class?
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  14. #354
    Let's say Average Joe wants to do more DPS, and he has ~3 hours to make it.

    What is giving him more DPS, work those 3 hours to make money to race-change to troll or spending those same 3 hours setting up a good UI, learning his rotation, what the boss do and how to gem/reforge properly?

    So what do you think Average Joe will do? Exactly, perfect his playstyle.

    Also don't know about you, but the kind of people that goes "oh, Method is horde so i'll race change so i instantly become godlike" is the kind of people i don't want to raid with.

    Also let's be honest. Beastslaying aside (and i agree beastslaying shouldn't affect raid bosses) berserking vs 1% crit vs blood fury vs 1% expertise/hit is not really unbalanced. Sure, some specs benefit it most from one racial or other, but that's no reason to waste balancing time on there, especially when specs are as different as now.

  15. #355
    Stood in the Fire MORGATH99's Avatar
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    horde ftw . alliance its just there so the horde have something to grind

  16. #356
    Quote Originally Posted by Inthislzon View Post
    Let's say Average Joe wants to do more DPS, and he has ~3 hours to make it.

    What is giving him more DPS, work those 3 hours to make money to race-change to troll or spending those same 3 hours setting up a good UI, learning his rotation, what the boss do and how to gem/reforge properly?

    So what do you think Average Joe will do? Exactly, perfect his playstyle.
    What if Average Joe was already a troll? He suddently has an advantage againist Average Bob who just plays a much as him. Did he do anything special to get it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Inthislzon View Post
    Also don't know about you, but the kind of people that goes "oh, Method is horde so i'll race change so i instantly become godlike" is the kind of people i don't want to raid with.
    It's not about that thought, it's about the mindset these people are in. You probably didn't read Eiffeltower's post on the argument.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eiffeltower View Post
    This.

    Especially if you are raiding heroics : it's all about maximisation. Maximise uptime on procs, maximise usage of in fight mechanics, heroics is all about pushing everything to the limits in order to get the most advantages on your side. A normal guild could be satisfied with medicore gems - a heroic one will not at all, and will ask for the best ones to be equiped. every 10 intellect / str is crucial. Not just in the benefit (0,004% DPS ?) but rather in the way you approach optimising your char / performance.

    Had this conversation with the raiders about 300 food buff. Its not just about '25 intellect' (versus feasts). IT's that if you are not prepared to farm your 300 food, why would you bother buying the best gem ? Or the best enchant ? Or pushing the encounter's mechanic just that bit more ?

    With that being said, it's pretty simple to see that any self respecting serious raider would go horde.
    This mindset, the one where you're consistently striving to be better, is what gets you ahead of the progression curve. And you're just much more likely to find people like these in horde.

    Quote Originally Posted by Inthislzon View Post
    Also let's be honest. Beastslaying aside (and i agree beastslaying shouldn't affect raid bosses) berserking vs 1% crit vs blood fury vs 1% expertise/hit is not really unbalanced. Sure, some specs benefit it most from one racial or other, but that's no reason to waste balancing time on there, especially when specs are as different as now.
    What's so strong about those racials is that they're cooldowns. They're averagely better, and MASSIVELY better if you have anything such like Spine where a high amount of damage must be dealt in a short window. Do keep in mind that stacking cooldowns is also more beneficial than just having static stats increase (which is the reason why Engineering is considered the best profession, belt aside which is being nerfed next patch so that it won't matter)
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  17. #357
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    Quote Originally Posted by Inthislzon View Post
    Let's say Average Joe wants to do more DPS, and he has ~3 hours to make it.

    What is giving him more DPS, work those 3 hours to make money to race-change to troll or spending those same 3 hours setting up a good UI, learning his rotation, what the boss do and how to gem/reforge properly?

    So what do you think Average Joe will do? Exactly, perfect his playstyle.

    Also don't know about you, but the kind of people that goes "oh, Method is horde so i'll race change so i instantly become godlike" is the kind of people i don't want to raid with.

    Also let's be honest. Beastslaying aside (and i agree beastslaying shouldn't affect raid bosses) berserking vs 1% crit vs blood fury vs 1% expertise/hit is not really unbalanced. Sure, some specs benefit it most from one racial or other, but that's no reason to waste balancing time on there, especially when specs are as different as now.
    That bonus he gets from racials is something he gets without any mechanical improvement at all. Hell, it may actually be a DPS loss for bad players who don't use activated racials. The point is when used right, he has an advantage over someone of equal skill who plays as alliance. The point is everyone should be maximizing their potential...

    It's true some people won't care about the racial bonuses. I do care that I waste a lot of hours every week begging people of my skill level to consider going alliance. I do care that many of my friends are in guilds who went alliance to horde. I care that in ToT my guild could have ranked higher with a pay-to-win faction transfer.

    The point is if you think this only affects some arbitrarily low percentage of high-end players, you aren't seeing the big picture.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fluorescent0 View Post
    Not anymore. If you've looked at arenaleague's tournament (30k$ prize, so they weren't just playing for the heck of it ) the two teams that got in the final both played horde. And the tourney happened on the arenapass, so it's not anything about transfers either.
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  18. #358
    Quote Originally Posted by kidsafe View Post
    Shocking!
    I know right! But with pve trinkets nered to hell and pvp being all about burst, having an on-demand burst (in the form of a racial) instead of a proc trinket is just soo much better. And double CC breaker with WotF is pretty strong for healers too, seeing as basically every comp sports either a priest or a lock.
    Last edited by Fluorescent0; 2013-09-02 at 04:54 PM.
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  19. #359
    Legendary! Raiju's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fluorescent0 View Post
    Not anymore. If you've looked at arenaleague's tournament (30k$ prize, so they weren't just playing for the heck of it ) the two teams that got in the final both played horde. And the tourney happened on the arenapass, so it's not anything about transfers either.
    The top team for the arena tournament last blizzcon had a hunter in it, despite hunters being below 5% representation in top teams at the time.

    But please, bring more anecdotal evidence.
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    which is kind of like saying "of COURSE you can't see the unicorns, unicorns are invisible, silly."

  20. #360
    Quote Originally Posted by Raiju View Post
    The top team for the arena tournament last blizzcon had a hunter in it, despite hunters being below 5% representation in top teams at the time.

    But please, bring more anecdotal evidence.
    Please, disprove the other statements made above instead of ignoring them. That was just a quick response to the pvp matter, which is not as clearcut as it used to be because of the factors mentioned above.
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