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  1. #21
    The above pointers are what I meant by odd gameplay decisions. You always want to stack cooldowns to get the multiplicative bonus, yet from the logs it seems that your use of cooldown was at times almost random. Take the combat pot example: you could have waited for Vendetta and aligned it with Synapse Spring - both at zero cost.

    As for BL, I simply disagree with how your team is doing it. It is not uncommon to delay BL slightly on pull to allow players to ramp up their abilities, but by doing so you slow the ramp up process and thereby lose time on the initial trinket procs. What's more, it might force the mage in your raid to Alter Time sub-optimally as he would otherwise lose out on the buff. Bottom line: I'm in the BL-on-pull camp.

    Also, try to open Mut > SnD > Mut > Rupture > Vendetta > SB+Mut (macro) > Envenom > Standard rotation
    Guild Leader of Eye of the Tigger on EU-Draenor

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Lachtobi View Post
    The above pointers are what I meant by odd gameplay decisions. You always want to stack cooldowns to get the multiplicative bonus, yet from the logs it seems that your use of cooldown was at times almost random. Take the combat pot example: you could have waited for Vendetta and aligned it with Synapse Spring - both at zero cost.

    As for BL, I simply disagree with how your team is doing it. It is not uncommon to delay BL slightly on pull to allow players to ramp up their abilities, but by doing so you slow the ramp up process and thereby lose time on the initial trinket procs. What's more, it might force the mage in your raid to Alter Time sub-optimally as he would otherwise lose out on the buff. Bottom line: I'm in the BL-on-pull camp.

    Also, try to open Mut > SnD > Mut > Rupture > Vendetta > SB+Mut (macro) > Envenom > Standard rotation
    Holding cooldowns to wait for another for stacking is NOT worth it if it causes you to have fewer uses over the course of a fight. As in: if you end up doing 3 Vendettas instead of 4 because you wanted to align them, it's typically a loss. If you would have still gotten 3 but didn't stack them, it would obviously be a loss. The caveat to this is if damage increase or decrease abilities are involved (like Jin'rokh).

    And as for the "BL on Pull", that's going to bite you next patch, with the 120s penalty added to RPPM trinkets.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by zurm View Post
    Holding cooldowns to wait for another for stacking is NOT worth it if it causes you to have fewer uses over the course of a fight. As in: if you end up doing 3 Vendettas instead of 4 because you wanted to align them, it's typically a loss. If you would have still gotten 3 but didn't stack them, it would obviously be a loss.
    Absolutely true, but irrelevant. The example used was a combat potion - you get 1. The number of uses is a constant - 1. When you use it is a variable. As such, you should line it up with as many abilities as possible.

    If your group *does* hold lust until a few seconds into the fight (assuming "a few" as in 3-5 and not like 20), you should be fine using CDs just a couple of seconds in; BL will kick in only a moment later. If you're holding Lust for more than like 10 seconds, I'm confused. That has nothing to do with trinkets, it's just silly.

    On haste vs. mastery: do a search through the rogue forums, and see Assassination: the Nitty Gritty. We don't need to debate it again here.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by 3radsoeren View Post
    im always waiting for bloodlust to use sb/vend/bers in the beginning of the fight. Do you think its more worth to use them directly even if BL isnt active at this time ?

    I remember 1 phase in that dummy fight i failed activating sb/berserking and realized it few secs later and paniced on my cooldown button totally my bad there. (normally this wont happen)

    for the pot i waited for some procs/cooldown overlays to use it, when it was late in fight i used it without anything, because it was still better than no pot.

    Im currently at work and cant check the logs if im right with my explanations but i guess that were the reasons.

    what odd game play decisions do you mean ?
    Im very happy you took your time to help me
    I don't know for sure, but my gut tells me that overlapping CDs with pre-pot and trinkets is more important than overlapping them with bloodlust, especially since you're likely going to cap out on energy with just SB/Berserking, let alone bloodlust.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Mugajak View Post
    Absolutely true, but irrelevant. The example used was a combat potion - you get 1. The number of uses is a constant - 1. When you use it is a variable. As such, you should line it up with as many abilities as possible.

    If your group *does* hold lust until a few seconds into the fight (assuming "a few" as in 3-5 and not like 20), you should be fine using CDs just a couple of seconds in; BL will kick in only a moment later. If you're holding Lust for more than like 10 seconds, I'm confused. That has nothing to do with trinkets, it's just silly.

    On haste vs. mastery: do a search through the rogue forums, and see Assassination: the Nitty Gritty. We don't need to debate it again here.
    In case he doesn't feel like reading that massive thread: There are ups and downs to both, there are tons of rogues parsing with both, tons of rogues progressing with both and tons of rogues arguing for both. It seems as though there are a few more rogues at the top end of the logs that are mastery over haste, but that could be due to a number of factors (the faster the boss dies, the better mastery does, as you don't need the haste for the trinket procs), and a few other things. Pick whatever you prefer.

  5. #25
    Blademaster Shakapopolus's Avatar
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    Also keep in mind that with the RPPM trinkit changes that will make mastery even more valuable across the board. I ran a haste build for about half of this patch, and switched to mastery back in mid July and it was a very noticeable difference. And keep in mind I'm about half heroic progression in a 25 man, so take that for what its worth.

    @Rupenbritz I never said simulations, 25% more mastery in a raid buffed environment which would still be a noticeable increase. Please don't add words to what I say to form an argument that no one in here has any interest in getting into.
    Last edited by Shakapopolus; 2013-08-28 at 11:32 PM.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by 3radsoeren View Post
    im always waiting for bloodlust to use sb/vend/bers in the beginning of the fight. Do you think its more worth to use them directly even if BL isnt active at this time ?
    For you... first use of SB and vendetta should be immediately after you get SnD and rupture up and running. If SB and vendetta wear off by the time lust is cast, it is not your problem... it is your entire raid's problem.

    If lust is being used at the very beginning of a fight, instead of during execute or for some specific mechanic of a fight, it needs to be used only a few seconds after the fight begins. This is to take advantage of the entire raid having pre-pot, initial trinket procs, and significant cooldowns (ie SB and Vendetta) running. If the person casting lust or the raid lead calling for lust misses lining up with all of that, you need to yell at them for screwing everyone in the raid.

    I'm not an expert at SimC or digging through logs, but the poor timing of lust and the lack of execute health level on the training dummy can probably account for the dps you are missing.
    Tishelle (Rogue) - Tisha (Mage) - Tishandra (DK) - Tisharia (Priest) - Tishanna (Warlock) - Tishie (Monk) - Tishette (Boosted Warrior )

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Tisha View Post
    For you... first use of SB and vendetta should be immediately after you get SnD and rupture up and running. If SB and vendetta wear off by the time lust is cast, it is not your problem... it is your entire raid's problem.

    If lust is being used at the very beginning of a fight, instead of during execute or for some specific mechanic of a fight, it needs to be used only a few seconds after the fight begins. This is to take advantage of the entire raid having pre-pot, initial trinket procs, and significant cooldowns (ie SB and Vendetta) running. If the person casting lust or the raid lead calling for lust misses lining up with all of that, you need to yell at them for screwing everyone in the raid.

    I'm not an expert at SimC or digging through logs, but the poor timing of lust and the lack of execute health level on the training dummy can probably account for the dps you are missing.
    Yeah that's what I was gonna say, don't think he responded on whether or not this was dummy-specific, or if the the log on the dummy is just an example, and raid DPS is similar. Execute health is MASSIVE. Look at dispatch, you use it no more than 10 times before execute phase, but it's typically your #4 or 5 move on the damage breakdown, way above mutilate.

  8. #28
    Don't overestimate Dispatch, though. True it hits hard individially, but it provides way less combo points per energy, lowering envenom damage during the execute.

  9. #29
    Mut is 2 CP for 55 energy, Dispatch is 1 CP for 30. It does add up over time, but the damage increase you get is pretty substantial.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Kulestu View Post
    Yeah that's what I was gonna say, don't think he responded on whether or not this was dummy-specific, or if the the log on the dummy is just an example, and raid DPS is similar. Execute health is MASSIVE. Look at dispatch, you use it no more than 10 times before execute phase, but it's typically your #4 or 5 move on the damage breakdown, way above mutilate.
    It was simulated for a patchwerk fight, cause the raid dummy profile of simcraft wont change the combat time and is a bit buggy imho. Ofcourse dispatch has a huge amount of damage in a finished bossfight, but the combat was simulated for a fix percent of 90% health. So there is no executionphase in the simulation. In normal bossfights im running fine afaik. Just wondered about the big dps difference on a dummy.
    Thanks for your help guys !

  11. #31
    Blademaster timbo117's Avatar
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    today i changed a few things around on my gear etc went from 11k+ mastery ub to 8.5k and about extra 1k on top of my haste to put it at 11.8k aswell as getting an extra 3k agi from gems.
    i then did h jinrokh and a couple attempts on h tortos and found that i was doing more dps then before, i love theoycrafting! ^.^

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Kulestu View Post
    Mut is 2 CP for 55 energy, Dispatch is 1 CP for 30. It does add up over time, but the damage increase you get is pretty substantial.
    Mutilate also has a 30% chance to proc Dispatch, which is where most of the disparity comes from.
    Dispatch is a damage increase, yes. But its not as huge as it looks.

    Energy per CP for mutilate = 55 / ( 2.3 * ( 1 + crit chance ) )
    Energy per CP for dispatch = 30 / ( 1 * ( 1 + crit chance ) )

    Crit chance as a decimal, of course. Depending on your crit chance, mutilate can be anywhere from twenty to thirty percent more efficient in terms on energy per CP. Tier 16 two piece also favors Mutilate in this aspect.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Ainurr View Post
    don't forget that the dummy is 100% hp, this means no execute phase and less dps
    Everybody overlooking this, your execute fase is quite a bit of your final DPS, dummys dont have an execute fase.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by DakonBlackblade View Post
    Everybody overlooking this, your execute fase is quite a bit of your final DPS, dummys dont have an execute fase.
    Thats why there is the Simcraft override fixed_health_percent=90
    Execute phase is included in his 221k dps result.

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