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  1. #1

    Are paladins again going to be ahead of the other tanks in T16?

    As we all know, most of the two-tank fights in T15 were solo-tanked by paladins through bubble and/or HoP usage, thereby helping out progression a lot. They were way above other tank classes in terms of raid spot preference, and I am wondering if this trend is going to continue in T16? Are paladin tanks again going to be head and shoulders above the other tanks, especially in a 10m? From the few previews I've seen of the T16 encounters, Thok seems to be the one where the tank debuff can be wiped by bubble, possibly allowing a paladin to solo-tank it. Are there any other fights where this can be done? Or are all tank classes relatively closer in T16?

  2. #2
    Do we really need another thread about this? People have been getting upset about pally tanks in loads of other places and it always devolves into a bunch of complaining between people who don't have all the facts. Pally tanks aren't the problem on live, BoP is. If you have any other spec of paladin then arguably the monk tank is just as good if not better.

  3. #3
    Pandaren Monk Spacebubble's Avatar
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    All tanks could solo tank those encounters though. That's not necessarily what made paladins the go-to choice. It was how well we scale(d) with vengeance both survival and damage.

    In any case vengeance is getting a nerf across the board and most debuffs to my knowledge can't be cleared by bubble in t16. On top of that warriors are looking really strong and druids and dks are getting buffed too. Don't think there'll be that much difference between tanks this tier tbh.

  4. #4
    Dreadlord Choice's Avatar
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    In general, solo tanking won't be a huge factor this tier. There will be players who eventually push for it, and I'm sure you'll see some fights be solo tanked. But on the whole it's going to be a lot less potent due to bubble no longer clearing the debuffs like in t15.

    As far as Thok goes, I'm not sure if the debuffs can be bubbled, but even if so you'd have issues doing the fight with just one tank. Firstly the breaths apply too frequently and hit too hard to really be doable without swaps, and secondly things would go pretty badly if your jailor tank got fixated and there was no second tank to taunt it.

    On the whole, the gap shouldn't be as massive this time around. The class on the whole will likely be weaker, but no one really denies that the class needed to be brought down. DKs got some significant buffs, warriors got some minor ones and brewmaster's scaling got addressed.

    The tier should be more balanced, or at least not so heavily favoring two classes.

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  5. #5
    Stood in the Fire Vattenmelon's Avatar
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    Blizzard is trying to get the tanks closer to each other; warriors and dk's get riposte for increased damage, bears get a stamina buff. Paladins though get their grand crusader passive nerfed to make parry/dodge more attractive (haste will no longer increase how frequently you get the proc, since it's no longer affected by crusader strike). They seem to also nerf paladin's trump card, solotanking and removal of tank debuffs.

    Monks though just get a small damage nerf, but otherwise remain the same. Now in 5.3 monks can reach 50%+ crit unbuffed, will be interesting to see how far they can go in 5.4, sick damage?
    Last edited by Vattenmelon; 2013-08-28 at 07:22 AM.

  6. #6
    Never really understood why Blizzard lets this sort of thing happen - either make those fights one-tankable or mandate two-tanking.
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  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Animma View Post
    Do we really need another thread about this? People have been getting upset about pally tanks in loads of other places and it always devolves into a bunch of complaining between people who don't have all the facts. Pally tanks aren't the problem on live, BoP is. If you have any other spec of paladin then arguably the monk tank is just as good if not better.
    Hmm, looking at my post again, I could have worded it better. I wasn't asking from a class perspective, I was asking from an encounter perspective, in that how many encounters are there in T16 where the tank debuff can be bubbled/HoP'd off. Going by the replies, seems like there aren't that many bosses this time around where that can be done. Should be good news for quite a few guilds out there, mine included.

  8. #8
    Pandaren Monk Spacebubble's Avatar
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    On the whole, the gap shouldn't be as massive this time around. The class on the whole will likely be weaker, but no one really denies that the class needed to be brought down. DKs got some significant buffs, warriors got some minor ones and brewmaster's scaling got addressed.
    What significant buffs did DKs get if warriors only got minor ones. To my knowledge it's the other way around with warriors being pretty damn powerful come 5.4?

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Choice View Post
    In general, solo tanking won't be a huge factor this tier. There will be players who eventually push for it, and I'm sure you'll see some fights be solo tanked. But on the whole it's going to be a lot less potent due to bubble no longer clearing the debuffs like in t15.

    As far as Thok goes, I'm not sure if the debuffs can be bubbled, but even if so you'd have issues doing the fight with just one tank. Firstly the breaths apply too frequently and hit too hard to really be doable without swaps, and secondly things would go pretty badly if your jailor tank got fixated and there was no second tank to taunt it.

    On the whole, the gap shouldn't be as massive this time around. The class on the whole will likely be weaker, but no one really denies that the class needed to be brought down. DKs got some significant buffs, warriors got some minor ones and brewmaster's scaling got addressed.

    The tier should be more balanced, or at least not so heavily favoring two classes.
    Are you high? lol

    Warriors are getting a 35% crit buff and crit was turned into a defensive stat for us.

    Our AOE got a like 60% damage increase.

    "Minor buffs" lol.

    Paladins and Monks will still probably be #1 and 2 but not even close to as far ahead as they were this patch.

    Based on damage and defensives
    Throne: Monk>Paladin>>>>>>Warriors>Druids>>DKs

    SoO: Monk>Paladin>Warrior>Druid>>Dk

    Way more balanced then last patch.
    Last edited by Gliff; 2013-08-28 at 08:56 AM.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Bullshot View Post
    Hmm, looking at my post again, I could have worded it better. I wasn't asking from a class perspective, I was asking from an encounter perspective, in that how many encounters are there in T16 where the tank debuff can be bubbled/HoP'd off. Going by the replies, seems like there aren't that many bosses this time around where that can be done. Should be good news for quite a few guilds out there, mine included.
    Apologies, I was jumping to conclusions. I know blizzard have stated they wanted solo tanking to be much less viable this tier as they pretty much realised the mistake of last tier. I mean I'm pretty sure the only boss you can't solo tank this tier is Primordius? It's a bit insane but at least they've given it the whole "yeah we screwed up, we'll try and do better."

    Whether they actually do better remains to be seen, pretty sure last PTR people were saying things like "Solo tanking Tortos/Magaera is just too much damage, it won't happen."

  11. #11
    That's exactly how it should be. It's fine solo tanking a boss once you outgear it, in the same way you can (almost) kill jinrokh without storm, horridon without doing all doors, etc.

    That's very different from "let's one tank tortos on progression because it's easier that way"

  12. #12
    Scarab Lord Mokoshne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Inthislzon View Post
    That's very different from "let's one tank tortos on progression because it's easier that way"
    If something is easier, players will gravitate towards that. It's the "Always take the shortest path mentality."

    Its kind of cool that there are different ways to tackle encounters depending on your group make up. As long as your not overall at a detriment for not having a pally.

    Pally tanks should have a fight to shine on, so should DK's, druids, warriors & monks. As long as there are those moments, it's not a big deal IMHO
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  13. #13
    Yep, i know.

    I was referring to 2-tank fights (Tortos/Megaera/Durumu/Qon) being one-tanked WHILE NOT OVERGEARING them. I'm fine with solo tanking, let's say, durumu now, as i only have 3 upgrades left on ToT, and one is renataki. What should be avoided is "this is clearly a 2-tank fight, but if we 1tank we gain much and lose nothing" and that's being fixed on 5.4.

    One tank bosses here and there are ok, but when everything is a 1-tank boss except for Jin-rokh, Ji-kun, Primordius and Animus... sucks to be the offtank. Unless you happen to have an offtank that prefers doing DPS that is XD

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gliff View Post
    SoO: Monk>Paladin>Warrior>Druid>>Dk
    why are you putting dks at the bottom, their damage will be in line with paladins and warriors probably with monks at the top, and their survivability is being buffed by SoB being triggered from dodge and parry which makes them even stronger, thier 2 set is amazing and has great synergy with the cd reduc trinket (as does ams with the glyph)

    if anything i would put monks> warrior=pala=dk >> druids (mainly due to alot of hc encounters not favoring their active mitigation for example thok and nazgrim to name a few

    and on aoe fights DK> monk > warrior = pala > druid

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by ultimatehawk View Post
    why are you putting dks at the bottom, their damage will be in line with paladins and warriors probably with monks at the top, and their survivability is being buffed by SoB being triggered from dodge and parry which makes them even stronger, thier 2 set is amazing and has great synergy with the cd reduc trinket (as does ams with the glyph)

    if anything i would put monks> warrior=pala=dk >> druids (mainly due to alot of hc encounters not favoring their active mitigation for example thok and nazgrim to name a few

    and on aoe fights DK> monk > warrior = pala > druid
    u are so wrong m8 u should check the ptr abit

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gliff View Post
    Are you high? lol

    Warriors are getting a 35% crit buff and crit was turned into a defensive stat for us.
    when the list is exactly the same as last tier, just a lesser gap, i'd call those buffs minor. We were dead last on dps so the buffs look big, but lets be real here, we're not OP, we're not top dog, we just got enough to not reroll/unsub lol..

  17. #17
    Pandaren Monk Spacebubble's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by santa666 View Post
    when the list is exactly the same as last tier, just a lesser gap, i'd call those buffs minor. We were dead last on dps so the buffs look big, but lets be real here, we're not OP, we're not top dog, we just got enough to not reroll/unsub lol..
    If you go from dead last to on par (or more) I'd call that a major buff. Major/Minor is not the same as under/overpowered.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by ultimatehawk View Post
    why are you putting dks at the bottom, their damage will be in line with paladins and warriors probably with monks at the top, and their survivability is being buffed by SoB being triggered from dodge and parry which makes them even stronger, thier 2 set is amazing and has great synergy with the cd reduc trinket (as does ams with the glyph)

    if anything i would put monks> warrior=pala=dk >> druids (mainly due to alot of hc encounters not favoring their active mitigation for example thok and nazgrim to name a few

    and on aoe fights DK> monk > warrior = pala > druid
    What are these magical DPS buffs for blood that you seem to be imagining? Riposte is not going to be even remotely enough to push them into monk/paladin territory.

  19. #19
    Dreadlord Choice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gliff View Post
    Are you high? lol

    Warriors are getting a 35% crit buff and crit was turned into a defensive stat for us.

    Our AOE got a like 60% damage increase.

    "Minor buffs" lol.
    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/blog/10158897/#warrior

    Check again. Your only defensive change is 5 more rage on revenge and some tweaks to your healing tier. The rest of the crit related changes are in place to actually make the crit from riposte effect gameplay. They won't be enough to compensate for the fact that you have no value in offensive stats from a defensive standpoint. If you believe to the contrary, then you're the one who's 'high'.

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  20. #20
    since devastate and shield slam crits proc enrage effect in 5.4 , that will generate 10 rage . Generating more rage is in effect translated to higher uptime for shield block + shield barrier. Thus crit is mitigation (directly dps increase , indirectly mitigation.) If that will translate to stacking crit , or just taking the dodge/parry items and gaining crit that way ? I dont know.

    But crit IS a defensive stat in 5.4 ( just not as effective. And probably not really as relevant for 25man tanks compared to 10, especially ones pushing progress.)

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