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  1. #1

    Tier 16 Fire mage bonus

    2 set:
    Pyroblast! increases your haste by 750 for 4 sec, stacking up to 5 times.
    4 set:
    Inferno Blast also causes your next Pyroblast to be a critical strike.

    Ok so i checked the Forums on the opinions about that and i found only Posts that say how shit the bouses are for fire.

    I dont see why, to me it Looks perfect. What i think for the Rotation:

    1. Fish for an instant Pyro
    2. Use Inferno Blast
    3. Alter Time
    4. 100% for 2 Instant pyros
    5. ALter Time, again 2 instant pyros
    6. PoM ypro
    (By now you have a 100% on 5*750 Bonus haste for extra ticks)
    7. Hit Combustion


    So how that cant be nice...the nasty RNG of fire before Combustion is finally gone.

    For me it sounds just awesome. Am i wrong?

    I only hope they also put some crit on the gear pieces. Couldnt find anywhere yet how the stats on the gear is.

  2. #2
    The Patient Abraxis's Avatar
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    No.

    U do FB till one crits (HU) -> Qeued FB + IB -> (HS & 4pc up)
    Continue FB till anotherone crits (HU/HS & 4pc up) -> Qeued FB + ATMacroPyro -> Pyro ->ATMacroPyro -> Pyro -> Combustion

    If u have some more experience 2nd AT & Comb maybe 1 Pyro later due to pyroCrits, but u should always skip PoMPyro before u hit 2nd AT and do always Comb before u release PoMPyro.

    Edit: And yes u're right, when it comes to combustion the 4pc is extremely strong
    Last edited by Abraxis; 2013-08-29 at 08:15 AM.

  3. #3
    I wish they didnt nerf combustion with 30% xD this could have been the most powerful spec with these bonuses
    Im not sure if the combustion nerf will make fire spec a no go?

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Glomsun View Post
    Im not sure if the combustion nerf will make fire spec a no go?
    It will not make fire a no go.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by PPN View Post
    2 set:
    Pyroblast! increases your haste by 750 for 4 sec, stacking up to 5 times.
    4 set:
    Inferno Blast also causes your next Pyroblast to be a critical strike.

    Ok so i checked the Forums on the opinions about that and i found only Posts that say how shit the bouses are for fire.

    I dont see why, to me it Looks perfect. What i think for the Rotation:

    1. Fish for an instant Pyro
    2. Use Inferno Blast
    3. Alter Time
    4. 100% for 2 Instant pyros
    5. ALter Time, again 2 instant pyros
    6. PoM ypro
    (By now you have a 100% on 5*750 Bonus haste for extra ticks)
    7. Hit Combustion


    So how that cant be nice...the nasty RNG of fire before Combustion is finally gone.

    For me it sounds just awesome. Am i wrong?

    I only hope they also put some crit on the gear pieces. Couldnt find anywhere yet how the stats on the gear is.
    Well, if Alter Time works the way it does now, then you'll lose your bonus haste when Alter Time triggers and reverts you.

    Also note that the set bonus says Pyroblast!, not Pyroblast. Pyroblast is the base spell. Pyroblast! is the insta-spell triggered by Hot Streak, with the extra 25% damage.

  6. #6
    Bloodsail Admiral Nathyiel's Avatar
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    @PPN: you're entierly true but most of the Fire mage will still keep the FB+Pyro (banked) instead of ever casting 1 little Inferno Blast.
    They just ignore the fact that most of the Pyroblast they cast are Pyro! it result that the 4p increase average crit chance of Pyroblast from 65% (50% with CM) to 80%+
    They also ignore that it increase the global number of Pyro!.

    But it reduce RNG range so it reduce the maximum DPS and increase the minimum DPS. The problem is here, most of the Fire mage only faith in big number and totally forget that an average have 2 sides.

    And finally, the fire's bonus increase more the damage than the arcane. It only force the use of a spell most of the fire mage don't use. Poor fire mage have a bad T16 bonuses because they don't like it.
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  7. #7
    The Patient Abraxis's Avatar
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    @Nathyiel

    I've spent much effort to make some things clear to u as a tc who have not really an idea of the practical execution.

    I've already told u some facts, why u should't do IB with HS up or just on CD. It's just NOT true, that we're not casting IB. But u should cast IB when HU is up and after e.g. evocation or keeping magebomb up.

    I've already told u about the queued FB.

    So why do u keep talking, that the playstyle is the wrong one. Except of ur empty phrases i haven't seen a single proof of that.

    You weren't able to sim the actual playstyle the right way so you just cannot do correct comparison between them in a simulation. And i've also never seen any REAL tests you did to compare the both styles.

    But thanks for that comment, so i know trying to help u and make some things clear to u from the practical side of view is just time wasting.

    And finally, the fire's bonus increase more the damage than the arcane.
    This is possibly right.

    It only force the use of a spell most of the fire mage don't use.
    This is just false.

    We don't use IB brainless on CD!

    Poor fire mage have a bad T16 bonuses because they don't like it.
    Firemages that have an idea from the specc, love it!
    Last edited by Abraxis; 2013-08-29 at 02:59 PM.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Glomsun View Post
    I wish they didnt nerf combustion with 30% xD this could have been the most powerful spec with these bonuses
    Im not sure if the combustion nerf will make fire spec a no go?
    They nerfed it with 60%.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Also, I dislike the 4-set bonus a lot. It will change our Combustion rotation slightly since it'll be a small gain to try and get 2xFB crits in a row instead of FB crit + IB.

    But I guess it's a very good bonus for a non-alter time combustion aswell, which is something I like. (I hate getting non-crits on my already "weak" Combustion)
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  9. #9
    Bloodsail Admiral Nathyiel's Avatar
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    @abraxis: who speak of using Inferno blast on CD, just every HU if it's up and before AT so the 4p bonus will be copied.

    I just explain why the T16 bonus is better than most seem to think of. And why it's important to have it.
    (and for information, it's not because i'm a pro-frost mage that I have no experience in Arcane or Fire).
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  10. #10
    The Patient Abraxis's Avatar
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    Yes, but there's a big difference between not using a spell and using it wisely.

    and quotes from you are saying:

    instead of ever casting 1 little Inferno Blast.
    It only force the use of a spell most of the fire mage don't use.
    And if you tell PPN he is entirely true, than you tell him to use IB with HS up and don't do an FB before u start the ATmacro. And thats just not the way its perfectly done.

    If you look at what i've posted you'll go with 4pc and HS/HU.

    But if you tell him to do like he wrote than you have to think of the queued FB. When he fishes for an HS, at the moment he will notice HS is up the qeued FB is halfway through. Stopcasting for IB is Bullshit. But if he would cast IB after the queued FB is flying:

    If the FB crits 1HS is munched. If the FB does not crit 1HU is munched.
    Last edited by Abraxis; 2013-08-29 at 03:48 PM.

  11. #11
    Bloodsail Admiral Nathyiel's Avatar
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    Sorry, i was a little bashing but sometime I think discussion keep running in circle, not only in Fire discussion.

    I prefer the Fire spec being more reactive than calculated but it's better to use it in regard of ignite's damage.
    Maybe it's why I prefer Frost and Icicle. Icicle feel good because they're like in a black-box. And even if you know the damage they stores it won't change anythings.
    If Fire's mechanics was less centered around Ignite, it could feel a lot better. The change of importance of Combustion is in this direction I think.

    On tweeter, someone just tell me that one of the problem with the 4-pieces is that it can't be feel. The change is only in number, you won't feel more powerful. The 2-piece feel like accelerating.

    (edit: And can you stop using "u", "ppn" or any abbreviation. It's difficult for those who English isn't there native language.)
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  12. #12
    The Patient Abraxis's Avatar
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    PPN is the name of the Mage who opened the thread

    with u i meant you. Sry.
    Last edited by Abraxis; 2013-08-29 at 03:47 PM.

  13. #13
    It should be mentioned that every T16 tier piece has Crit on it, it is like the gear is tailored to Fire. You also get 8 red sockets and two yellow sockets. Pants have the two yellow. Normal 553 ILvl T16 has 5218 crit rating.

  14. #14
    Alright, so can we sum it all up in one or two posts then? Here is the official question, and lets answer it and end the discussion:

    Does t16 2pc/4pc CHANGE our current rotation (not going to describe, assuming all know it by now), and when is best to sacrifice t15 4pc for t15 2pc/t16 2pc or do we wait till we swap out 4pc for 4pc?

    GO.

  15. #15
    i rly wish they would go away with bonuses revolving around crits. its complex enough, just make it 2 fireballs proc 1 pyro like combo points

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Dusteyy View Post
    Alright, so can we sum it all up in one or two posts then? Here is the official question, and lets answer it and end the discussion:

    Does t16 2pc/4pc CHANGE our current rotation (not going to describe, assuming all know it by now), and when is best to sacrifice t15 4pc for t15 2pc/t16 2pc or do we wait till we swap out 4pc for 4pc?

    GO.
    The only change is IB will be used more often after instants to prime a HS with HU and then guarantee a pyro crit leading to another pyro cast. Most people already do this to max DPS anyway but it will become a much larger DPS increase than before

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Proakryt View Post
    The only change is IB will be used more often after instants to prime a HS with HU and then guarantee a pyro crit leading to another pyro cast. Most people already do this to max DPS anyway but it will become a much larger DPS increase than before
    Not sure I am following. Currently I am (assuming not bursting or opening):

    Chain casting FB until HU, once HU procs, spam IB during next FB cast. Continue casting FB with my HS proc now until another HU proc, then spam Pyro during next FB cast. This is obviously done to give you doulbe the chance to get another HS/HU proc.

    Is that changing at all due to IB or pretty similar/same?

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Dusteyy View Post
    Not sure I am following. Currently I am (assuming not bursting or opening):

    Chain casting FB until HU, once HU procs, spam IB during next FB cast. Continue casting FB with my HS proc now until another HU proc, then spam Pyro during next FB cast. This is obviously done to give you doulbe the chance to get another HS/HU proc.

    Is that changing at all due to IB or pretty similar/same?
    That's the way you're supposed to do it and it still will be.

    The difference will be in the middle of the fight on your second combustion. Say you have HS and you are searching for a combustion opportunity. If you throw a FB now and it crits and then go for standard PoM pyro spam + combustion, your first pyro won't benefit from the tier16 bonus.
    Most likely the best thing to do is if you have HS you use fireball then immediatly pyro. Now there are 3 situations:
    1. Both fireball and pyro crits --> HS
    2. One of them crits -> HU
    3. None of them crit -> nothing.

    For 1. use IB immediatly then FB -> combustion combo
    For 2. FB then immediatly IB -> combustion combo
    For 3. FB until crit then FB + IB -> combustion combo

    EDIT: Didn't really read your post clearly. I don't know what the optimal rotation would be outside of combustion.
    Last edited by rerre; 2013-08-30 at 12:43 AM.

  19. #19
    Your rotation does not change at all.. if IB is able to be used, and you only have a HU proc, USE IT.

    In regards to use with combustion... make sure you have the 4pc buff up before you begin your onslaught of pyros.. so if you have a HS + HU, but do NOT have the 4pc buff... it would be wise to just cast FB -> Pyro and then IB to get your buff up and then proceed with your combustion.

    4pc t16 > 4pc t15 > 2pc t16 > 2pc t15 or in other words you will only drop ur 4pc t15 for 4pc t16.. the 2pc t16 is not worth the loss of crit from your 4pc t15.. (so many numbers)


    EDIT: of course the above is just in general, there are several cases where what I described above would waste a pyro proc and not be optimal... but I feel like describing what to do in every situation isn't worth the trouble. So basically continue your current rotation and have your 4pc up for your chain pyros for combust.
    Last edited by Hauntedd; 2013-08-30 at 03:18 AM.

  20. #20
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    Realistically the 4pc has little effect on Fire's rotation at all. Sure it will be optimal to have the 100% crit going into AT to smooth out a lot of the RNG, but realistically that 100% crit isnt going to be that much of an improvement. With 574 Heroic pieces (2/2 non-warforged) our crit levels are going to be incredibly high already. I currently sit at roughly 48% raid buffed at 548 ilevel, and I'm still missing Cha-ye's and the belt off of Ra-Den. With another 26 ilevels our crit ratings will likely be sitting around +60% before CM, factoring out to 78% assuming my math is correct. This means were effectively only gaining another 22% crit from the 4pc, and this 22% is only applied after we proc HU. The actual cycles for procing HS and HU will be moving further away from the use of IB due to the fact that we will be critting far more often than we were; so effectively this means the cases where we can actually utilize the 4pc will diminish as our gear continues to improve. This will be a great boon to lower geared Mages however, as they gain a lot more effective crit out of it due to their naturally lower crit levels.

    The 2pc will be average. Its benefit will be magnified by the fact that the go-to bomb will be NT once again, which benefits from Haste more so than LB. I would estimate an average uptime, but the total value at 5 stacks is hardly enough to actually warrant refreshing bombs. It will likely just sporadically give us additional ticks on NT and passively fit more FBs into the fight.

    The set bonuses are both underwhelming, but its not as if were taking them at a loss. I think the real discussion should be whether or not going for 4pc is optimal. I could easily believe that going for 2pc and getting better itemization off of the off pieces would be a better choice than going for the 4pc. I haven't actually played with the itemization choices, nor have I found anything conclusive on the relative stat weights of Haste vs Mastery in T16, so its still highly debatable.

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