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  1. #21
    The Patient Abraxis's Avatar
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    @Hasted

    Thats not true in many ways.

    With 574 Heroic pieces (2/2 non-warforged) our crit levels are going to be incredibly high already.
    T15 Bis and T16 Bis have nearly the same critrating! So at beginnig of T16 critrating is going to drop a little bit, what makes the new 4pc just more stronger.

    the set bonuses are both underwhelming
    No. For Every ATcomb u have 2 garanteed Pyrocrits out of 4 Pyros. For every nonATcomb u have at least 1Pyrocrit. At actual gear it can happen, that you have 2 noncrits for your nonATcomb even at high critlevels. This is never going to happen again with the new 4pc.

    I think the real discussion should be whether or not going for 4pc is optimal.
    No again. Every Setpiece has crit on it. To make up 4pc e.g. for ATcombs u would need around 20%-30% more critrating to get the same results constantly which would be at least: (20/1,3)*600 = 9231 Critrating.
    Since every setpiece already has crit u will NEVER EVER make this up.

    Listen to what Hauntedd wrote. This is right.

  2. #22
    High Overlord Henzington's Avatar
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    Yeah none of the new trinkets give any rating so actually full bis t16 has slightly less crit rating then full bis t15. Course between the amp trinket and the huge intellect proc on the 33% duplication trinket most likely more then makes up for the loss crit rating.
    Last edited by Henzington; 2013-08-30 at 11:45 AM.

  3. #23
    All pieces from T16 have crit, so even if the bonus was crap (better than nothing) they are bis or at least close to bis so will be worth it to get them.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Abraxis View Post
    @Hasted

    Thats not true in many ways.


    T15 Bis and T16 Bis have nearly the same critrating! So at beginnig of T16 critrating is going to drop a little bit, what makes the new 4pc just more stronger.


    No. For Every ATcomb u have 2 garanteed Pyrocrits out of 4 Pyros. For every nonATcomb u have at least 1Pyrocrit. At actual gear it can happen, that you have 2 noncrits for your nonATcomb even at high critlevels. This is never going to happen again with the new 4pc.


    No again. Every Setpiece has crit on it. To make up 4pc e.g. for ATcombs u would need around 20%-30% more critrating to get the same results constantly which would be at least: (20/1,3)*600 = 9231 Critrating.
    Since every setpiece already has crit u will NEVER EVER make this up.

    Listen to what Hauntedd wrote. This is right.
    It seems you were correct about the Crit, we only gain ~2% in 2/2 Heroic T16 gear upgraded from T15 2/2 Heroic and Ra-Den pieces (granted the set I put together for T16 probably wasn't 100% optimal). That's after the Int gains are factored in (which is the only thing we actually see gains in apparently).

    I'll still maintain that our rotation won't see much of any change, and the 4pc will only serve to smooth out the RNG. Although I would be willing to bet that forcing the 4pc proc before an AT with HS+HU is going to be the way to go.

    I'm sure we'll still end up using an off-piece still to grab some extra Haste or Mastery depending on which ends up having a higher value. From what I can tell we don't gain additional gem sockets from any of the off pieces (unlike many previous tiers).

    That's pretty disappointing for Fire though IMO, hopefully Arcane or Frost will be competitive. From what I've read Arcane seems legit atm, not sure about Frost though.

  5. #25
    High Overlord Henzington's Avatar
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    The best off piece is most likely the helm. Since the tier only has 1240 crit rating and there is a off tier piece that has 1664 crit rating. This is upgraded heroic tier versus upgraded warforged heroic.
    Last edited by Henzington; 2013-08-30 at 11:13 AM.

  6. #26
    4p T16 gives u - in general - more crit % on pyro! than 4p T15 does. The problem is that with the combustion nerf again - same as in the beginning 5.2 - this is not our main damage source so less rng for combustion (especially the non AT) is less relevant for overall dps. With gear scaling again it is naturally evolving better.

  7. #27
    crit > haste > haste > haste > haste > ... mastery

    the value of mastery has dropped significantly and regarding the comment between NT > LB... it will depend on the fight and your ending haste value and what breakpoint you end up with.

  8. #28
    High Overlord Henzington's Avatar
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    That is a valid point with the nerf to combustion the value of mastery is lowered quite a bit. Probably better to just go for the highest possible haste breakpoint and then the rest mastery as it was before.

  9. #29
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    Won't the value of Haste decrease as well with the RPPM changes?

  10. #30
    You will not want mastery at all right now. Ideal situation is Crit > Haste ... doesn't matter the breakpoints or anything.. more haste will always be better than mastery. Also more haste means a much higher uptime on your t16 2pc which is just a lot more haste.

    And yes hasted, haste will not make your rppm trinkets proc more often, but its still far better than mastery currently.

    Mastery was only good due to making your combustions much much much higher.. and since the nerf, well that just doesn't happen anymore. More haste -> more spells cast -> more pyros. Pyros are between 40-50% of our total damage now.. the more the merrier.
    Last edited by Hauntedd; 2013-08-31 at 11:44 PM.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Hauntedd View Post
    You will not want mastery at all right now. Ideal situation is Crit > Haste ... doesn't matter the breakpoints or anything.. more haste will always be better than mastery. Also more haste means a much higher uptime on your t16 2pc which is just a lot more haste.

    And yes hasted, haste will not make your rppm trinkets proc more often, but its still far better than mastery currently.

    Mastery was only good due to making your combustions much much much higher.. and since the nerf, well that just doesn't happen anymore. More haste -> more spells cast -> more pyros. Pyros are between 40-50% of our total damage now.. the more the merrier.
    I've been thinking that this might end up being the case, but has there been any good data that proves this? I would just like to see solid numbers before I jump on the haste bandwagon next tier.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Hasted View Post
    Won't the value of Haste decrease as well with the RPPM changes?
    Haste still gives more meta-gem procs and legendary cloak procs. Yes, Haste is worth less in 5.4 compared to in 5.3, but Mastery's value plummeted due to the Combustion nerf, so Haste will be better than Mastery.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Sephurik View Post
    I've been thinking that this might end up being the case, but has there been any good data that proves this? I would just like to see solid numbers before I jump on the haste bandwagon next tier.
    Personal testing and some opinions of other top-tier mages.. you can do w/e you wish

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Megamisama View Post
    They nerfed it with 60%.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Also, I dislike the 4-set bonus a lot. It will change our Combustion rotation slightly since it'll be a small gain to try and get 2xFB crits in a row instead of FB crit + IB.

    But I guess it's a very good bonus for a non-alter time combustion aswell, which is something I like. (I hate getting non-crits on my already "weak" Combustion)
    Like Megamisama said it's more like a 60% nerf for combustion.

    LIVE Combustion damage
    With Glyph 2 289 618 damage per execution (DPE) (DPS = 26 040) (95sec interval)

    PTR Combustion damage
    With Glyph 964 602 damage per execution (DPE) (DPS = 10 971) (95 sec interval)
    Without Glyph 389 912 damage per execution (DPE) (DPS = 7 852) (52 sec interval)

    All results from simcraft (Ilvl 538)
    https://www.dropbox.com/s/96kquigroz...0live_ptr.html

    Clean file
    https://www.virustotal.com/en/url/65...is/1378490108/
    Last edited by Moronordon; 2013-09-06 at 05:56 PM.

  15. #35
    Bloodsail Admiral Dutchmagoz's Avatar
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    I personally find fishing for a HS+HU extremely risky, especially on the start of a fight.

    I get like 5 procs within the first 3 seconds of the fight, double trinkets, meta gem, cloak enchant, weapon. I'd much rather go into my AT with all of these procced, than having 30% haste time out or something because I didn't get a HS+HU up. The 30% bonus haste is much more important than getting 5/6+ pyroblasts instead of 4/5/6+ pyroblasts. Especially since after 3 pyroblasts your ignite will barely continue to go up, and if your 5th/6th pyroblast doesn't crit it will most likely actually drop, resulting in a lower combustion. Whereas the 30% haste is very valuable for your combustion.

    I will personally wait for a HU, make sure I got at least ~3 of my procs (weapon/cloak enchant doesn't matter that much) and then IB, if I'm lucky my previous FB will crit and I'll get HS+HU anyway, but else, oh well, I'm not going to gamble losing my procs over one extra pyro during AT for a POSSIBLY slightly stronger combustion. (Not counting combustion, your dps will most likely lower from holding on to your procs for so long)

    Then PoM + AT, double pyro (first with 100% crit, second with my crit%), which will most likely give me a 3rd pyro, and i'll use that as well, then AT again, and double/triple pyro again, and using combustion during any of those 3, very likely after the first. (since it's 100% crit chance, so chances are my next pyro will lower my ignite, since my initial pyro will have dropped off the ignite already)

    I personally don't really like the 2 piece bonus for the initiation AT, since you'll not have any procs of it up when you enter AT, get 2/3 stacks of it during it, and then lose them again after it, but can't really do anything about that, that won't lower overall DPS. Also, only 5 seconds? Really? No way to keep that up outside of very lucky streaks.
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  16. #36
    You should be fishing for another proc before unleashing pyro.

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