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  1. #21
    It is pretty sad that Holy Priests have no interesting utility like the others and in 5.4 will have even a harder time justifying their spot for progress. Sure we're viable and those who love the spec will stick to it, but it still sucks being the one spec that brings nothing unique and just washed down versions of what others have.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by nobodysbaby View Post
    Absorbs. Hm, how can you say they are useless unless bosses have oneshot abilitys? It's like saying the extra hp gained from Shamans are useless unless you should've died from an attack but the extra hp saved you.
    Yep that is exactly right. If no one would have died from an attack if they didnt have the absorb or the extra HP then there is absolutely no benefit at all to having them. The only benefit of absorbs in that situation is decreased overheal and more personal HPS, which is beneficial to you personally, but there is no benefit to your raid.

    I don't want to derail the thread too much, so I will be brief (Note that the following analysis works in exactly the same way in a multihealer environement):

    Consider a player with L HP, taking D DPS over T seconds which will prove lethal.

    Let healer 1 stack an absorb buffer A before the damage happens and then provide H1 HPS (heals and absorbs) during the T seconds. The total HPS provided by healer 1 is A/T + H1. In order to prevent the person from dying (D - H1)*T - A <= L (1)

    Let healer 2 just produce H2 HPS with no absorbs. Then in order to prevent the person from dying (D-H2)*T <= L (2)

    Notice that the value of absorbs to survival is inversely proportional to T.

    Since the condition for survival is not maximal HPS but rather conditions (1) and (2), absorbs become indispensable to survival only if condition (1) holds, while condition (2) does not hold. It is immediately obvious that since H1 < H2 for disc as the absorb healer, absorbs become indispensible to survival only for small values of T, because H1*T and H2*T and their difference increases with time, while A is pretty much a constant.

  3. #23
    Bloodsail Admiral nobodysbaby's Avatar
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    You can turn and twist it, but until you actually go through logs for, lets say progress attempts to make it more obvious, do you ever really care to check how many that should've died unless there were absorbs etc in the raid?

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by nobodysbaby View Post
    You can turn and twist it, but until you actually go through logs for, lets say progress attempts to make it more obvious, do you ever really care to check how many that should've died unless there were absorbs etc in the raid?
    Yes actually I do check progress logs when I do them disc to decide whether to go holy or not. I check whether absorbs can save people from abilities that would one-shot them, a combination of abilities hitting together due to bad RNG, or very short burst (5s or less)

    Jin'Rokh: Frequently

    Horridon: Occasionally

    Council: Rarely, when it happens its mostly the winter king's debuff

    Tortos: Never tried, but absorbs are definitely useless here

    Maegera: Never seen one

    Ji'Kun: Occasionally

    Primordious: Very frequently

    Dark animus: Very frequently

    Iron Qon: Rarely, mostly when people muck up and its usually a wipe

    Twins: Frequently

    Lei shen: Very frequently

    Ra-Den: Frequently.
    Last edited by Havoc12; 2013-08-31 at 01:09 AM.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havoc12 View Post
    (...)
    Tortos: Never tried, but absorbs are definitely useless here
    My priest experience is really recent (rerolled on for my group like 1 month ago), but I think that on H-Tortos my Absorbs are really useful. If I pop SS + some PW:S at the right time, before the Stomps, the Humming Crystal Shield won't even fall off from my fellow raid partners. Even with SS+PS:S I could save some guildmate that didn't have the Shield Buff for a Stomp.
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  6. #26
    Pit Lord HeatherRae's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Isheria View Post
    Maybe playing on ptr first before commenting would be a good idea.
    I have not experienced this on the PTR. Are you speaking of a specific Spec, or both specs?
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  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by HeatherRae View Post
    I have not experienced this on the PTR. Are you speaking of a specific Spec, or both specs?
    Isheria said both specs are bad.

    It is probably because you are playing with the same people. Playing with many different raid groups I see shaman and druid output varying quite dramatically. I think it is down to gearing strategy. Sometimes I am above, sometimes as holy I am behind, but usually not far above and not far behind, though I don't have the legendary cloak proc.

    Also an important factor is gear scaling. The T16 bonuses are a bit meh for druids, compared with the T15 ones. Basically the T16 bonuses are set so that they add new healing mechanics for druids, while the T15 bonuses buff the spells that druids use the most. I suspect that every druid with a good output is using the T15 sets, which are scaled.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Drugshock View Post
    My priest experience is really recent (rerolled on for my group like 1 month ago), but I think that on H-Tortos my Absorbs are really useful. If I pop SS + some PW:S at the right time, before the Stomps, the Humming Crystal Shield won't even fall off from my fellow raid partners. Even with SS+PS:S I could save some guildmate that didn't have the Shield Buff for a Stomp.
    Even a very small absorb will let someone survive the stomp as long as you are full health. This is a rare occurence though as you would have be to very bad to not re-click the crystal before the stomp. At the very worst holy can still PWS someone who failed badly and let them survive the stomp. I can't see the absorbs from disc being beneficial, they don't add any new functionality to the encounter. Raw output healers can build an absorb buffer on the raid faster and more effectively.

  8. #28
    Bloodsail Admiral nobodysbaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drugshock View Post
    My priest experience is really recent (rerolled on for my group like 1 month ago), but I think that on H-Tortos my Absorbs are really useful. If I pop SS + some PW:S at the right time, before the Stomps, the Humming Crystal Shield won't even fall off from my fellow raid partners. Even with SS+PS:S I could save some guildmate that didn't have the Shield Buff for a Stomp.
    Indeed. Our Disc is doing a great job, especially keeping the tanks stable and many times there is no need to refresh the buff after stomps. Holy is more for e-peen healing; most healing is simply excessive "overshielding", hell, 1 Halo do almost all the job after stomps. If the fight would've been tuned a lot more tightly, it would probably be true raw healers are more valuable, but the resonating buff is not more valuable than absorbs from healers tbh.

  9. #29
    Pit Lord HeatherRae's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Piffnifty View Post
    It is pretty sad that Holy Priests have no interesting utility like the others and in 5.4 will have even a harder time justifying their spot for progress. Sure we're viable and those who love the spec will stick to it, but it still sucks being the one spec that brings nothing unique and just washed down versions of what others have.
    Washed-down versions? o_O

    Man, either my guild is doing something seriously wrong, or I'm somehow amazing. And everyone else I've been healing with on the PTR must also be doing things completely wrong. While it's true that I can't surpass a well-played Resto Druid or Mistweaver, I can give them a run for their money.
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  10. #30
    Well yeah, like i said, Holy is very much viable, even competitive in capable hands. Not saying otherwise, or I wouldn't have played the spec through progression and in 10 man at that. I just feel like through the years we've lost that quality that distinguished us from the other healers. Everyone else still has a niche regardless that we're all meant to be able to heal anything now, while we don't quite have one that shines specifically anymore (thus the washed down version comment but it might have been the wrong term to use here). Not sure really how to phrase it well :P
    Last edited by Piffnifty; 2013-08-31 at 07:04 PM.

  11. #31
    Pit Lord HeatherRae's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Piffnifty View Post
    Well yeah, like i said, Holy is very much viable, even competitive in capable hands. Not saying otherwise, or I wouldn't have played the spec through progression and in 10 man at that. I just feel like through the years we've lost that quality that distinguished us from the other healers. Everyone else still has a niche regardless that we're all meant to be able to heal anything now, while we don't quite have one that shines specifically anymore (thus the washed down version comment but it might have been the wrong term to use here). Not sure really how to phrase it well :P
    Oh, I thought you meant like..."weak and useless." Probably me just reading things badly.
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  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by HeatherRae View Post
    Washed-down versions? o_O

    Man, either my guild is doing something seriously wrong, or I'm somehow amazing. And everyone else I've been healing with on the PTR must also be doing things completely wrong. While it's true that I can't surpass a well-played Resto Druid or Mistweaver, I can give them a run for their money.
    Are you druids using T15 in the PTR?

    With the FDCL and the new set bonuses Holy is once again the healer that has high output no matter what the damage. Spread, stacked, single target, healing on the move, HoTs and now they can do it regardless of chakra.

    Indeed. Our Disc is doing a great job, especially keeping the tanks stable and many times there is no need to refresh the buff after stomps. Holy is more for e-peen healing; most healing is simply excessive "overshielding", hell, 1 Halo do almost all the job after stomps. If the fight would've been tuned a lot more tightly, it would probably be true raw healers are more valuable, but the resonating buff is not more valuable than absorbs from healers tbh.
    If someone watches the tank, resto druids, holy priests and mistweavers can two heal the rest on 25man or solo heal it on 10man. Why would you have a disc priest sticking absorbs on top of the crystal buff. The crystal buff by itself is more than enough and it can be stacked faster and more reliably then absorbs from disc. This is a classic example of absorbs serving no purpose whatsoever. They won't prevent someone from dying and they are not even that helpfull in improving personal DPS
    Last edited by Havoc12; 2013-08-31 at 11:09 PM.

  13. #33
    As of 5.4 the HPS charts are looking like; Resto Druid > Resto Shaman > Holy Pally > MW Monk = Holy Priest > Disc Priest

    That being said Disc will always be viable, and absorbs will always be good. The Spirit Shell nerf severely hurts them in 25m, but in 10m it's much more forgiving. All it really means at the end of the day is get 4pc and about 3500-4000 haste and you'll never really notice a difference. In 25m it's a big difference, going from 6 base to 4 Spirit Shells is so harmful to pre-emptive healing. On top of that, most fights don't really have a 1 time burst mechanic, instead favoring damage over time effects (as they're less punishing on raiders).

    Basically if you're a good healer, you'll get into a raid either way. Disc has more utility and CD's than Holy, but Holy will perform better, and Disc's cooldowns really don't mean much in a 25m raid setting.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by iKrow View Post
    As of 5.4 the HPS charts are looking like; Resto Druid > Resto Shaman > Holy Pally > MW Monk = Holy Priest > Disc Priest

    That being said Disc will always be viable, and absorbs will always be good. The Spirit Shell nerf severely hurts them in 25m, but in 10m it's much more forgiving. All it really means at the end of the day is get 4pc and about 3500-4000 haste and you'll never really notice a difference. In 25m it's a big difference, going from 6 base to 4 Spirit Shells is so harmful to pre-emptive healing. On top of that, most fights don't really have a 1 time burst mechanic, instead favoring damage over time effects (as they're less punishing on raiders).

    Basically if you're a good healer, you'll get into a raid either way. Disc has more utility and CD's than Holy, but Holy will perform better, and Disc's cooldowns really don't mean much in a 25m raid setting.
    Is that based results from your guild's testing on the PTR? Looking simulations I can't see how holy palas are going to be above holy on 25man. From testing flexi PTR, normal and some hc modes, I find that Resto shamans are stronger on stacked fights since healing rain is still a monster and resto druids are stronger on spread out fights. However as far as I can tell I can tell holy is above shamans shamans healing a spread out raid and above druids healing a stacked raid.

    If you have some logs showing the differences that would be awesome.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Havoc12 View Post
    Is that based results from your guild's testing on the PTR? Looking simulations I can't see how holy palas are going to be above holy on 25man. From testing flexi PTR, normal and some hc modes, I find that Resto shamans are stronger on stacked fights since healing rain is still a monster and resto druids are stronger on spread out fights. However as far as I can tell I can tell holy is above shamans shamans healing a spread out raid and above druids healing a stacked raid.

    If you have some logs showing the differences that would be awesome.
    Those are tried and tested. I unfortunately don't have logs, but holy pallys are far from bad in 5.4. What you say about RShamans and RDruids is true, but generally on a fight where everyone can abuse their strengths (say Malkorok), what I said is literally 100% true.

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