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  1. #181
    Pit Lord miffy23's Avatar
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    My philosophy simply differs in terms that we don't kick anyone if they can't or don't raid. We have many people and we only set rules in terms of behaviour, not in any way for raid attendance or capability. I set other rules for people that wish to be part of one of the raid teams, but if someone doesn't meet these rules or cannot attend regularly for a time, they will simply be informed that they won't get a guaranteed slot for the team as long as that is the case. They are not removed from the guild however. A fundamental difference in guild philosophies I guess.

    And yes, it is a typical reaction to me because you hear these kinds of stories all the time. People don't build any kind of social structure in their guilds or implement consideration for real life aspects and then wonder why their teams collapse as soon as the expected success isn't immediately there. Seen it countless times. "What, you're not an immediate 24/7 asset to my team? gurlbye!" - shortsighted and a bit asocial to me.

    The thing is, I personally don't see the point in that kind of attitude when your team isn't literally on the bleeding edge of progress. Unless you're fighting for, say, Top100 or so progress kills, why the stress? What does it matter? Who really cares? That level of raiding simply doesn't warrant said level of reckless and overly ambitious behaviour. And it's the reason why many people at the cusp to getting into raiding are disillusioned by it, because they run into people that put pretty much irrelevant factors ahead of decent social behaviour.

    But I'll grant you that I may have overreacted with my statement as I really don't know all the sides to the story, and he IS 16, which in my book would not a raid member make.

  2. #182
    When you haven't been with the guild for a decent amount of time, more than 6 months, you shouldn't really be taking breaks(or make them aware of a break well in advance). I think part of what's driving the decision to cut the OP is that his parents control his playtime. It may not seem fair to someone who's still that young but it's also not acceptable for the guild to have to try to find replacements for you because you didn't get your homework done. So, you're in the guild for 2 months and now need half a month off because your parents said so. Fair or not I can see where the GL is coming from(personally I would have worked with you since it's the end of the tier and summer).

  3. #183
    The Lightbringer Danishpsycho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vaelorian View Post
    Basically this: That's a typical sad no-lifer reaction from your GM

    It just isn't true or has any basis upon where you can draw this conclusion unless you are ignorant to what GM's do to preserve their guild. You also never once in your post reflected back upon his weeks prior (being unreliable there) to those 2 weeks for his studies. You have to take that into account aswell as his guild history of 2/3 months, which is again NOTHING.

    As I stated before I do also believe that I would not have kicked him but would have checked what happened to his attendance AFTER those 2 weeks. But thats only on the assumption that the GM would not have a better recruit of his sleeve and if he never misbehaved.

    I have to agree with this. Personally I'd never ever invite a 16 year old to my guild, not even as social. Don't want "immature teenagers" in my guild because, more often than not, they are in fact immature teenagers. Ofc you can find mature teenagers but I'm not willing to take that chance with my guild.

    Also, the OP had been in the guild 2-3 months, which is nothing. He was ill (not his fault ofc) and unable to attend. Then his "father" forbids him to play for a full 2 weeks. They're a casual guild, clearing Lei Shen "most of the time". I'm sorry but this doesn't sound like a guild that's raiding 4 nights a week - more likely 2 nights a week. I'm having a hard time understanding, how 2x3-4 hours in a week is going to have any impact on studies. Nobody studies all day and all night for weeks straight, everyone knows that's not the most optimal way of studying. You need a break now and then and yes, I'm the age where I've already "been there and done that".

    I agree, that based on the info the OP has given us, a guild kick seems a bit harsh. On the other hand, the GM might not have had any intentions of ever using the OP again, cause well - OP hasn't really been reliable. And maybe, just maybe there's another reason why the GM didn't want the OP in his guild in the first place.

    In any case, it's not fair to say that the GM is a major douche bag imo. Cause in the end, guilds have rules and unless your guild is so casual that it doesn't even matter if you turn up for raids or not, they have to have some rules.

    Find a guild that doesn't mind your age and the fact that you have to do what your father tells you i.e can't play at all for 2 full weeks.

  4. #184
    Quote Originally Posted by Spl4sh3r View Post
    I don't get most guild kicks. I mean if he thinks you aren't raid worthy, then why does he have to kick you? Why not just demote you to a none-raiding rank? Then you can either prove him wrong or join another guild to start raiding anew. The only reason to guild kick anyone is if they break guild made rules (or even game rules), if you are so full of active members that you need the space(?) or if the majority of the guild want the player out of there for various reasons.
    While I agree this is correct for LONG TERM members who suddenly due to whatever circumstances cannot attent enough anymore to your requirements as a guild.

    If this person is 2/3 months into the guild, why bother with him? While my guild was pretty much about raiding heroic and trying to beat other guilds, I had as a guildmaster no time for people not giving my guild or it's members a boost to where we wanted to be. That means socials were not welcome, UNLESS they were RL friends/family of a member. Also my guild had a very good reputation. I kept this good reputation and promoted it to invite decent people and if they turned out not so decent or childish I got rid of them. I do not want someone wearing my guildtag and behave immature.

    To be totally honest, the guild itself became something of a product where I stood for my product and kept improving on it. I do hope that most GM would try and do the same. Do not attack me on naming my guild a product, look for what I mean with it. English is not my native language.

  5. #185
    I personally don't think students belong in raiding guilds since they have considerably less time to invest into raids/strats/time put into the game in general.
    Do you not have a job?

  6. #186
    Quote Originally Posted by Champxoxo View Post
    Do you not have a job?
    Jobs usually do not demand someone to go AFK for periods of time unlike people who need to study for exams. Also since students usually go to school during the day, they might have an evening job = bad for raiding since raiding usually happens in the evening. A lot of students live with their parents especially the 16 ye olds ones = parents can step in at any time and pull the plug to the internet or stop the creditcard funding for WoW.

  7. #187
    Pit Lord miffy23's Avatar
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    I would agree with that Vaelorian, we go for a similar model. We do not tolerate childish behaviour, in fact I don't believe we have a single member under 25 or so, by pure coincidence. And we consider our guild name a product that stands for something. We just don't connect that to raiding attendance or performance, the guild is more than just raid teams. So that' where we differ I guess.

    Also, 2-3 months in a guild nowadays isn't nothing. Personally I rely on my judgement when it comes to people and not the just the circumstances. It usually works out, we've never had any drama or had to kick anyone. But again, your philosophy is simply a completely different one, we don't care if we clear content 1-2 months later, and try to make the most of our experience in the guild. Frankly when guilds focus purely on heroic progress race and nothing else is usually when the burnout sets in and guilds collapse sooner or later.

  8. #188
    Quote Originally Posted by miffy23 View Post
    I would agree with that Vaelorian, we go for a similar model. We do not tolerate childish behaviour, in fact I don't believe we have a single member under 25 or so, by pure coincidence. And we consider our guild name a product that stands for something. We just don't connect that to raiding attendance or performance, the guild is more than just raid teams. So that' where we differ I guess.

    Also, 2-3 months in a guild nowadays isn't nothing. Personally I rely on my judgement when it comes to people and not the just the circumstances. It usually works out, we've never had any drama or had to kick anyone. But again, your philosophy is simply a completely different one, we don't care if we clear content 1-2 months later, and try to make the most of our experience in the guild. Frankly when guilds focus purely on heroic progress race and nothing else is usually when the burnout sets in and guilds collapse sooner or later.
    Well I guess we can shake hands then thanks for your reply. I take back the =) comments about YOUR post. I still stand by what I said earlier on those tho. I just go by my own experience. I counted the applies I received during my 6/7 years as GM of my guild - they exceed 2.000. You can imagine that I had to deal with litterally hundreds of applies of people below 18. So you get a feel for that, which ofcourse at times might be wrong, but usually do one credit.

    My guild ultimately grew with general age aswel. The older I got the older the members got that we got into the guild. At the end we were a 28+ kind of guild. With a few people that were lower then 22 and only 2 were 16 that I kept as regular members and still to this day have on my friendslist.

    I must make a point that most people seem not to understand about "my kind of guild". When you are a heroic guild such as the one I had, people who are not as much into progress usually say: oh they are a heroic guild and very serious, the atmosphere must be terrible and no one is friends etc.

    It is just not true. I still have guildmeetings with my members even though the guild no longer exists (well its still there but it is a ghosttown). You built a humongous bond with eachother through those hardships. Humour and social stuff happens in heroic guilds aswell. Usually very much outside of raidtimes. Very much during the weekends.

  9. #189
    Pit Lord miffy23's Avatar
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    Oh don't misunderstand. I was in bleeding edge progress race guilds in Vanilla and TBC and the atmosphere was great for the most part. But the fact of the matter was that once the success that everyone wanted wasn't there, it began to crumble rapidly. Now occasionally you'll get lucky and get a team of people together that "clicks" and just enjoys each other's company as well as raids together well. That's rare. We got very lucky and actually have two such groups this expansion, albeit not at a heroic progress level yet.

    Ultimately it comes down to hard decisions on the part of a raidleader/guildleader either way. One could argue that it's tougher for me to tell someone they can't come raid due to lack of attendance/reliability or ability for the content we aim for, due to the fact that we don't openly exclude anyone. A guild like yours that focuses purely on that side of things and openly recruits that way won't have that dilemma.

    OT: at the end of the day it's just unclear what the OPs guild's philosophy really is, to me it now sounds like the OP would prefer my kind of guild while he was kicked from a Vaelorian-type guild that is not doing well at communicating it's rules and stance.

  10. #190
    Being a recruitment officer I'll say this,

    I do think there is something missing in your post, we raid about 4 to 5 nights a week depending on progression , 3 hours a night , we're not considered a casual guild so having younger raider's is not always the best. Although I always give them the benefit of the doubt the interview they are questioned intensely to know what type of life they live, how much control their parents have over curfew , how much time school will take out to have an idea of what type of student this person is and so forth. After reading your post , it seems like you knew about the exam's for a while telling your GM in advance about your absence would of probably been a bit helpful so he had some time to find a replacement.

    Finding a replacement isn't always easy, If you're part of a dead server then the chance of pugging is minimal although you are only into reg's , it may be slightly easier for your GM. Saying things at last minute is really frowned upon here unless its an unexpected thing lick sickness, loss of job , having to move , family problems ,etc. We're always aware that type of thing can happen. That being said, if your GM has a steady roster of 10 people for a 10-man let's say then that's partially his fault for not planning in advance to have extra people to raid properly.

    I have had raider's in the past that were under 18: in school, had jobs on the week-ends and so forth. Every one of them knew the rules, everyone of them were interviewed over mumble and asked if school was going to take them away from raiding, if parents would interfere and if they could play at the hardcore level. If a person tell's me "Yes, I will be available with no problems" then it's on your shoulders. You provided me with information that said that you would be a reliable raider, with determination and have 100% attendance. If you lied to get your way in and I found out 2-3 months later I will kick you (This is an example btw lol)

    I would ask your old GM when you get back what he meant by incapable because reality is it's not very explanatory of what the issue is. Also top DPS might be good to you but without logs we can't really know, you could be top DPS not doing any mechanic , you may think you have a great awareness when maybe you don't and without knowing any of this it's hard to say if he was harsh or not.

    Shake it off and think about your exams for now, but I think you should really sit down and reconsider where you will be capable of raiding and whats more important to you, its called figuring out your priorities and taking responsibility. Good luck.

  11. #191
    Quote Originally Posted by miffy23 View Post
    Oh don't misunderstand. I was in bleeding edge progress race guilds in Vanilla and TBC and the atmosphere was great for the most part. But the fact of the matter was that once the success that everyone wanted wasn't there, it began to crumble rapidly. Now occasionally you'll get lucky and get a team of people together that "clicks" and just enjoys each other's company as well as raids together well. That's rare. We got very lucky and actually have two such groups this expansion, albeit not at a heroic progress level yet.

    Ultimately it comes down to hard decisions on the part of a raidleader/guildleader either way. One could argue that it's tougher for me to tell someone they can't come raid due to lack of attendance/reliability or ability for the content we aim for, due to the fact that we don't openly exclude anyone. A guild like yours that focuses purely on that side of things and openly recruits that way won't have that dilemma.

    OT: at the end of the day it's just unclear what the OPs guild's philosophy really is, to me it now sounds like the OP would prefer my kind of guild while he was kicked from a Vaelorian-type guild that is not doing well at communicating it's rules and stance.
    Meanwhile I don't raid anymore but your guild suits me now a lot more then mine would - people change - guilds change too.

    Nice to chat with you but I have to do some actual work now haha

    Cheers

  12. #192
    Bloodsail Admiral Shadee's Avatar
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    Sounds like you deserved to be kicked

  13. #193
    No offense to you, but this is one of the reasons why I had an 18+ policy when I was a guild leader. It sucks to have to replace a top DPSer due to school, for exactly the reasons you state ("My mom/dad/parents put controls on my account and/or I can't raid due to studies."). I don't fault high schoolers at all - I just didn't want to have to deal with parent aggro and the inconsistencies with teenagers (it's also around this time they start dating, have teenage angst, all sorts of drama, etc.).

    That being said, from YOUR point of view, that sucks. There are plenty of guilds out there that are casual/time-restricted friendly, who would be able to go for a few weeks without your DPS.

  14. #194
    To be fair as you said you've only been in the guild for a few months. The GM ows you nothing, and would rather find an active raider to fill your spot during SOO. He should've placed you as social instead of the kick, but other than that, good decision.

    Why should he put the entire guilds progression at risk over your Father being strict/you having exams? Just find another guild once the exams are done.

    18+ policy is a must if you want to do any sort of serious or consistent raiding. Not too many 16 year olds with full control of their own lives.
    Last edited by Etrigan; 2013-08-30 at 01:28 PM.

  15. #195
    I ran a guild for a while. Why gkick a teenager cause he can't make the raid for exams? Just replace him on the raiding team. Simple. Kicking him is unnecessary. You cant just say "You can't raid with an assured spot anymore. Sorry."

    Unless there's another reason he's not telling. But I can't see the justice in KICKING someone for that. There's a lot of stigma that gkicking comes with. Not sure a two week absence is a good enough reason. Either this GL seems to think WoW is more important than real life, or the kid is holding out and not telling some other part of the story.

  16. #196
    I think you should apply to a new guild and BEFORE joining let them know your situation.

    I think it's important you don't just think about yourself in this situation and take if from the GM's point of view. Would you like spending countless online and offline hours organizing a roster and such just to have a member take a spur of the moment hiatus?

    Personally, this is why guilds have an 18+ policy.
    Static - US Arthas | Currently 13/13 HM | Art by ElyPop

  17. #197
    What realm type you on mate - pvp or pve ?

    If pve then there is a good chance that when connected realms go live you will be joined with my realm , Nagrand ( oceanic ) ,as we are a medium pop realm so are expecting to be connected to two or three low pop oceanic realms .

    If this happens you are welcome to join my guild , Order of the Dragon . just look for our recruitment messages in trade or whisper Sulakin or Belldinn in game ( my main toons )

  18. #198
    Quote Originally Posted by Vaelorian View Post
    Jobs usually do not demand someone to go AFK for periods of time unlike people who need to study for exams. Also since students usually go to school during the day, they might have an evening job = bad for raiding since raiding usually happens in the evening. A lot of students live with their parents especially the 16 ye olds ones = parents can step in at any time and pull the plug to the internet or stop the creditcard funding for WoW.
    If only I had the time to play now like I used to when I was a student......(and that includes both undergrad and grad school)...

    Unfortunately now with the proper job, the time constraints get even worse, not to mention the older age bracket, when people get married and start having kids (a real attendance killer).

    Having been in a couple of progressed guilds, the age group that probably plays best and commits the most time are the 17-23 year olds. Exams happen, but when people get older a ton of other responsibilities bring about attendance issues.

  19. #199
    Dreadlord Lovecrafts's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SausageRawr View Post
    A little of a back-story: I'm a full time student, I'm 16 and just about to have yearly examinations in less than a week, my father is strict on me and my education and he's told me that I wont be able to play WoW for the next 2 weeks so I can study for these exams.


    So last night, I spoke to my guild leader, I've been in this raiding guild for about 2-3 months on a pretty low populated server. We've finished ToT on normal, killed Lei Shen most of the time, so we are extremely capable of doing SOO, my father spoke to me and gave me a lecture on the whole "Do you want to succeed in life?" and what not..., I realize that this is pretty important, so I told my guild leader that I would have to be gone for 2 weeks, I would be back before the new patch hits. There are many stand-by's in the guild, and have the gear and the skill to be able to raid ToT, we are clearing ToT every week doing Heroics at the same time, however I always have to be on despite my examinations within the next 2 weeks.

    We spoke on ventrilo, and he was pretty kind about it, straight up that I've been incapable these past few weeks and I need to have much better time management, but I think it's extrememly unfair that this much stress has to be carried on my shoulders... He kicked me from the guild, full stop, even after I told him all that's going on.

    Wanted to get your opinions on this...
    And this is why I prefer LFR, no drama, no raging raid leaders, no two-faced GMs.
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    Let's be clear: It's Pandaria, not 'panda land'. Everyone got the message?
    -Yes, yes let the anger FLOW through you.
    The community whined and bitched and cried, they stamped their little feet and demanded faster expansion releases. They don't get to complain now that expansions are shorter.

  20. #200
    Stood in the Fire Caribald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lovecrafts View Post
    And this is why I prefer LFR, no drama, no raging
    what

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