[MW PvE] Theorycrafting: Haste stuff

[Geodew]

Our very own Reglitch recently posted this on his blogthing: http://bestmonk.eu/?p=100 (Edit: Nevermind, Reglitch later on deleted all his MoP blog posts in favor of Warlords stuff. This is talking about Soothing Mist and pushing ticks under integer numbers of seconds.)

Now my post.

First, recall this post from main thread (or if you didn't read it, skim it now or even click it and read the surrounding posts if you want):

Right, here it is

0.00 0.70 1.00 1.40 (2.00 2.10 2.80 3.00 3.40 4.00...)
0.00 0.66 1.00 1.32 1.98 (2.00 2.64 3.00 3.30 3.96 4.00...)

So I guess it'd depend on how often you end a channel at 3sec or 1sec as opposed to 2 or 4. :P

Food for thought, though: Going from the 6141 bp to the 9158 bp is about 3k haste for one ReM bp. Going from 9158 to 12138 is also about 3k haste for one ReM bp AND one EM bp. The 3k Haste gives the same amount of Spirit from RPPM no matter where it is. So why stop at 9158? Why is 6145 to 9158 good, but 9158 to 12138 so heinous? Especially with this SooM breakpoint for 2sec channels.

This is kind of the meat of my question in that other thread that was shut down by "SooM doesn't work that way." So, if it actually does, I think this merits discussion.

To be perfectly precise, despite what I said in my post above, this is going from 42.80%, roughly 9158 rating, to 50.01% Haste, 12154 rating. (You can see in below discussion that I originally thought it was 12145 rating, which i got from Ask Mr. Robot as being 50.01% Haste, and why that was wrong.)

So as we see here if you're using SooM correctly (spamming it) then you get an extra tick if you channel for 2 sec or for 4 sec but not for 1 sec or 3 sec (any more time than that is probably somewhat irrelevant). We could call this a Soothing Mist Haste pseudo-breakpoint for 2- and 4-second channels.

But this argument was what happens at just above 50% Haste, which is at 12154 Haste rating (before you enter serpent stance and get spell haste buff, anyway). The testing Reglitch did in the linked post was done at the 12138 Haste breakpoint, 49.98% Haste again according to AMR. It's pretty clear to me that the extra 16 Haste Rating needed to push to extra SooM ticks is worth it. The "perfect play" model Reglitch used in the Haste post uses a lot of SooM for chi generation, so Effective Uplifts for 9158 compared to 12145 (Edit: 12154) should merit discussion, not 12138.

Assuming I've made no mistakes.

FOLLOW-UP: Complete list of Soothing Mist Haste Pseudo-Breakpoints: For Reference

Summary of follow-up: The 12154 breakpoint occurs at 14178 without raid haste, and is still worth jumping up to without raid haste, if you were actually hitting the 14162 ReM breakpoint. There are likely no other important SooM haste pseudo-breakpoints.

[Hinalover]

To be perfectly precise, despite what I said in my post above, this is going from 42.80%, roughly 9158 rating, to 50.01% Haste, 12145 rating. I got this 12145 rating number from Ask Mr Robot so someone say something if it's incorrect.

AMR is incorrect. Reglitch is correct in that you need 12,138 Haste Rating to reach the next haste point. The issue with AMR is that they are not taking into account how the server recognizes a new tick. Baseline, ReM ticks every 2,000 Milliseconds. In order for it to reach the 14th tick of Renewing mist; you need to bring that down to 1333.4999 Milliseconds. Without the raid Haste Buff, that requires 49.981264% Haste or 14,162 Haste Rating. With the raid haste buff, that requires 42.839299% or 12,138 Haste Rating.

If you want to be technical, Soothing Mist's 12th Tick happens at 12,405 Haste Rating without Haste Buff, 10,465 With the haste buff. The next haste point doesn't come up until 13,863 Haste Rating with the buff.

[Geodew]

AMR is incorrect. Reglitch is correct in that you need 12,138 Haste Rating to reach the next haste point. The issue with AMR is that they are not taking into account how the server recognizes a new tick. Baseline, ReM ticks every 2,000 Milliseconds. In order for it to reach the 14th tick of Renewing mist; you need to bring that down to 1333.4999 Milliseconds. Without the raid Haste Buff, that requires 49.981264% Haste or 14,162 Haste Rating. With the raid haste buff, that requires 42.839299% or 12,138 Haste Rating.

If you want to be technical, Soothing Mist's 12th Tick happens at 12,405 Haste Rating without Haste Buff, 10,465 With the haste buff. The next haste point doesn't come up until 13,863 Haste Rating with the buff.

I think you completely misunderstood. You need 50.01% Haste to get the third tick of SooM under 2 seconds, which simultaneously pushes the 6th tick under 4 seconds. I was not talking about ReM.

[Zoopercat]

Hey, I'm from Ask Mr. Robot. I'm 99% sure we have the haste numbers right, which are dynamically generated for each character (it includes their talents, race, etc). Geodew, can you give me your character name and realm so I can double check the haste numbers... just in case my 1% missing confidence was for a good reason?

[Totaltotemic]

I don't know why I didn't see this before when you first mentioned it, but how exactly would you go about restarting the channel exactly every 2.0000 seconds? It happens naturally with 1 second because that's the exact length of the GCD, but how do you really do 2 second channels in a real world environment?

[Deleted]

Hey, I'm from Ask Mr. Robot. I'm 99% sure we have the haste numbers right, which are dynamically generated for each character (it includes their talents, race, etc). Geodew, can you give me your character name and realm so I can double check the haste numbers... just in case my 1% missing confidence was for a good reason?

Haste breakpoints are correct, Geodew is saying that if you go 7 haste points higher to 12405 - you will get an extra tick of SooM if you end it on an even number of seconds while spamming it. Personally I think it's a good idea, since you don't lose the tick if you end on an uneven number of clicks.

[TheTrueM4gg0t]

@totemic: by casting SoM, SoM, Uplift for example.
Spell queueing should cause SoM to have an uptime of exactly 2sec.
I'd assume 2 or 3secs to be the normal channel duration, as you interupt with Uplift asap usually

[Totaltotemic]

@totemic: by casting SoM, SoM, Uplift for example.
Spell queueing should cause SoM to have an uptime of exactly 2sec.
I'd assume 2 or 3secs to be the normal channel duration, as you interupt with Uplift asap usually

Ah I thought this meant only spamming every 2 seconds, that makes a lot more sense.

[Hinalover]

Haste breakpoints are correct, Geodew is saying that if you go 7 haste points higher to 12405 - you will get an extra tick of SooM if you end it on an even number of seconds while spamming it. Personally I think it's a good idea, since you don't lose the tick if you end on an uneven number of clicks.

If your seriously thinking of pushing the half-tick, then you would need 12153 Haste at 50.03753% haste (12.4901 ticks, ticking every 666.4999 Milliseconds).

This is the spreadsheet I used to recreate the values:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...4dmNzUVE#gid=0

This is an update to the known DoT spreadsheet:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...ZmFYa0E#gid=12

[Floopa]

Forget Soothing Mists. Use SCK. It's the only way we're competitive healers next patch. Spin to win in melee is the way forward (yes, I'm being totally serious - if you're using Soothing Mists you aren't going to be competitive HPS wise).

[Deleted]

Forget Soothing Mists. Use SCK. It's the only way we're competitive healers next patch. Spin to win in melee is the way forward (yes, I'm being totally serious - if you're using Soothing Mists you aren't going to be competitive HPS wise).

Yeah this is true, SCK is up there. Little thing I posted on my blog, it's a little annoying that RJW would have been a great choice on some fights this tier before the shit changes to it.

- - - Updated - - -

It just so happens that haste is like doubly amazing for SCK than it is for SooM too, they should really get to work on making spell haste buff count though.

[Astraios]

But is haste good enough to offset how well everything else scales with crit/int/mastery to some level? I mean, after the RPPM nerfs basically.

[Deleted]

Ha, no. It's something like 10% better scaling if even from when I last recall comparing them.

[Astraios]

Well, SCK itself scales at closer to 10 hps per 2haste comparing to 5 per 2 crit and 3.7~ per int. It scales ridiculously fast (these are from Valen's calc in my gear). However, it also depends on how much HPS you lose from the crit/spell power on ReM/uplift.

If we move to using SCK, then I think hitting the highest haste cap possible (unless mastery/crit interaction is filthy good) will be the best strategy. (3k haste is a 16k hps increase in sck/sck/uplift, whereas 3k crit would be 10k increase.) Anyway, SCK double dips on haste in so far as the cast time decreases and we get SCK healing faster, and we get more chi faster (Aka more uplifts). And with how strong SCK seems right now, and our ability to maintain spamming it, haste might be the best stat. Stacking haste between caps still reduces healing because of shorter TFT windows, so caps are what we should aim for if SCK doesn't get nerfed. (That's my current idea.)

[iDrunkenheal]

Well, SCK itself scales at closer to 10 hps per 2haste comparing to 5 per 2 crit and 3.7~ per int. It scales ridiculously fast (these are from Valen's calc in my gear). However, it also depends on how much HPS you lose from the crit/spell power on ReM/uplift.

If we move to using SCK, then I think hitting the highest haste cap possible (unless mastery/crit interaction is filthy good) will be the best strategy. (3k haste is a 16k hps increase in sck/sck/uplift, whereas 3k crit would be 10k increase.) Anyway, SCK double dips on haste in so far as the cast time decreases and we get SCK healing faster, and we get more chi faster (Aka more uplifts). And with how strong SCK seems right now, and our ability to maintain spamming it, haste might be the best stat. Stacking haste between caps still reduces healing because of shorter TFT windows, so caps are what we should aim for if SCK doesn't get nerfed. (That's my current idea.)

I would be careful with this strategy. Shamans and druids will be laying down HR and effo on melee so any fights like twins you will just be padding off the melee instead of healing the range. I would image high crit build being good for spread healing and good at stacked healing. haste will be amazing at burst stacked healing and on the worse side of spread healing.

[Deleted]

I don't think gearing needs to change at all, removing crit for SCK removes a lot of sustainability with the LMG not scaling with haste anymore.

[Geodew]

If your seriously thinking of pushing the half-tick, then you would need 12153 Haste at 50.03753% haste (12.4901 ticks, ticking every 666.4999 Milliseconds).

This is the spreadsheet I used to recreate the values:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...4dmNzUVE#gid=0

This is an update to the known DoT spreadsheet:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...ZmFYa0E#gid=12

I can't really make sense of why it wouldn't be at just-above-50% Haste. Ticks are every 1sec base. 1/1.5001 = 0.66662... sec

I think I almost understand what you're saying, that at some point it truncates and rounds off. Can you elaborate?

Regardless this is probably worth considering, since we don't have to go very far past the ReM breakpoint to get this effect.

I would be careful with this strategy. Shamans and druids will be laying down HR and effo on melee so any fights like twins you will just be padding off the melee instead of healing the range. I would image high crit build being good for spread healing and good at stacked healing. haste will be amazing at burst stacked healing and on the worse side of spread healing.

As a 10m healer I don't always consider "SCK some random people" as a good healing option. Not likely to hit 6 people in general.

SooM is also way cheaper chi gen and thus can be used as an in-between HPS for SCK spam and just ReM/EH on-cooldown. Needless SCK just increases overheal, as Drunken comments, which wastes our mana and the mana of other healers.

Haven't done PTR, but if there are fights which require SCK spam we (and other healers) may need more Spirit. Blizzard rarely designs fights where you have to blast your max HPS for the entire encounter because we'd OOM without weird mana-regen mechanics.

[iDrunkenheal]

I can't really make sense of why it wouldn't be at just-above-50% Haste. Ticks are every 1sec base. 1/1.5001 = 0.66662... sec

I think I almost understand what you're saying, that at some point it truncates and rounds off. Can you elaborate?

Regardless this is probably worth considering, since we don't have to go very far past the ReM breakpoint to get this effect.



As a 10m healer I don't always consider "SCK some random people" as a good healing option. Not likely to hit 6 people in general.

SooM is also way cheaper chi gen and thus can be used as an in-between HPS for SCK spam and just ReM/EH on-cooldown. Needless SCK just increases overheal, as Drunken comments, which wastes our mana and the mana of other healers.

Haven't done PTR, but if there are fights which require SCK spam we (and other healers) may need more Spirit. Blizzard rarely designs fights where you have to blast your max HPS for the entire encounter because we'd OOM without weird mana-regen mechanics.

Oh man I miss heroic garalon. What a fight.

[Astraios]

Idk, if you use the meta when it procs for a jab/tp/jab/SCK, and use chi brew well, you can basically just SCK/ReM/EH for an entire fight. (including mana tea obviously).

Anyway, with the advent of reforge mounts, I think I might be attempting to set up a gear set where i can reforge between crit heavy and another haste breakpoint depending on spread/stack healing, because haste is insane with SCK.

Also, based on reglitch's spreadsheet int still sims as higher than crit for me, but that revolves (most likely) entirely around revival/life cocoon scaling so well with int. [Also I'm at 12k crit rating and haven't ever had mana problems so it's not like dropping some for int has any meaningful impact on mana.] I was just comparing my gearset to Reglitch's, mostly where this came from.

PS: Any LMG nerf is basically compensated for via the chi brew buffs, IMO. It's an extra 2667 mp5 which is extremely easy to use "on CD" and not waste the extra chi but still have up when needed. It's not like I'm going oom on live, or even close. I don't even use all my mana tea. Now I can use all my mana tea (2 consumed/global channel) when I need to/when fights slowed (w/o wasting globals), and I get even more of it due to stat inflation (yay more crit) and chi brew buff.

[Deleted]

Well I mean, the next up breakpoint from what people will typically reach for when @ ~560 or so is 15k, at which point I think SCK is 1.3 seconds. Regarding Jab->TP, it's only really possible during down time now since SCK will be the best button pretty much always.